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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 17, 2011 08:11AM

Marketing and PR are all about inflaming and then maintaining craving. Anyone who uses these will kill off whatever spiritual message they once posessed and become part of the craving delusional world they claim, as gurus to offer us emancipation from.

Amma is nothing but a product of marketing, a tycoon in a white sari.

By now I have read independent descriptions from several sources and these describe the same thing-persons who want hugs are grabbed at, processed, and pushed around as though parcels at a mail processing center.

Turning people into objects is not love.

And at her ashram in Kerela, the Indian devotees are put in separate accommodations from the Westerners and the Westerners are charged more.

In the eyes of God we are all equal. So--why make these crass and dualistic distinctions, eh?

For a description of all this by an Australian journalist, go to the chapter on Amma in Holy Cow ! An Indian Adventure. by Sarah MacDonald. Bantam, 2004.

MacDonald looked forward to seeing Amma, hoping to find a guru who emancipated women. She managed to find respect for Amma, but was very put off by the childish and competitive behavior among her devotees, especially the Westerners, wondering why all that love had not had a more beneficial effect.

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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 17, 2011 08:23AM

...Figuring it was now or never if I wanted a hug, I scurried up to my room to drop off my stuff and ran to the darshan hall where the mother hugs. I ended up waiting in a long line and meeting an australian named Chris. We played all cynical while we approached the head of the line to be hugged. Then, as I was only 2 people behind Amma, I started thinking about why I was there. I had been told by many people before that you are supposed to think of something you would like to happen while hugging the mother. I scoured my brain but was unable to come up with much, so I settled on “being able to feel unconditional love for all” or something vaguely like that.

My turn was up, and it was all a somewhat scary blur. I was pushed to my knees, then shoved into the mother’s breast, which smelled like a thousand sprays of sandalwood and spices, and I noticed to my horror just before my face was shoved in that my head was being pushed to a spot on her shirt over her right breast where countless others had been pressed earlier that day. And it had a kind of wierd stain all over it, sort of bluish and spotted. I kinda got the icks a little and this was mostly what I was thinking about while my head and nose were pressed firmly against this stain. I got up (or was pulled up, I’m not sure) and then was pushed out the of the way for the next needy soul. I suppose I should have felt reborn or something, but all I had was a vague sense that something had happened. I was neither elated nor despairing. It could have been that I was transformed and about to feel love pour out of me at every turn. Or it could have been that I was worried about catching some modern form of bubonic plague. Or maybe it was both. And maybe (just maybe) the two are somehow completely related, Yin and Yang eternal and inseparable in all things.

[www.gaudiya-repercussions.com]

and

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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: luckychrm ()
Date: August 21, 2011 07:43PM

Reading this brings me to wonder if there are any trustworthy people out there spreading the message of peace! Of course, there are- everywhere, every day- not asking for money or selling books or t-shirts or phone calls. But helping and loving and teaching and sharing and typically most people are unaware of their brilliance- do not marvel at their unrecognized compassion.

I know in a notebook of inspiration from over a decade ago (before I used the internet much) I have a newspaper clipping of Amma published to precede her appearance in Seattle. All I knew about her was written in that column and a half and I thought, "wow! what a fantastic way to spread compassion and love- not asking anything. I think I'll check that out next time I see this person Amma is near me." After reading these accounts, I'm so glad I did not go. I think my ego and my physical sensibilities are too fragile too endure the crush of an Amma hug-in as described in this thread. I would have no money to give, although I might drop some dimes of debt in Amma's direction. Oh but what would I have to loose- most likely my optimism, which is getting chipped away day by day anway :(

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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 21, 2011 11:12PM

(Somber)

You selected a good nickname for yourself. A decade ago, the crowd around Amma might not have been so large, you might have been set up to have a good experience. And then you might have remained loyal, loyal to your initial good feelings, and watched as the Amma organization grew into the large mosh pit it has since become.

Imagine the pain involved had you had a good experience, at a time when the Amma set up was smaller, persuaded your friends to join up, then tried to justify remaining after it turned into the money volcano and people-mauling set up that it has reportedly since become.

Indian culture does not, as ours does, start from the premise that the human person exists and has inherant dignity. This makes it possible for gurus to give hugs and shakti on an industrial scale--which we would imagine as being incompatible with what we see as the nature of a hug. But Amma is transmitting shakti and apparently this stuff can, from an Hindu perspective, be distributed en masse.

Keep in mind that in many of these set ups, people have already been venerating Amma's picture and are mentally and emotionally 'preformatted.' From the various descriptions, one goes to these mass events, surrounded by devotees like oneself. A crowd scene is powerful when it has a single focus.

You are kept waiting. Suspense concentrates longing. You sit through some sort of group meditation--and that will further concentrate attention and possibly induce a trance.

And all that is before you're grabbed and processed by the handlers into Amma's clutches and then out again.

Indian culture is based on clan systems-aka caste. There is no ingrained sense of the inherant dignity of the ordinary human person. You are just a unit in your caste or clan, period, a mere drop in an ocean. Even in parts of India that escaped repeated invasions, such as Kerela, where Amma is from, each human is just an ant in an larger ant hill that corresponds to clan or caste.

So, you will not be seen as someone to be handled with care or seen as a person. That is how to an Indian, it would not seem at all strange for a guru to be advertised as an agent of love, yet give out hugs on an industrial scale, with each subject being processed through like a parcel. Indian crowd scenes are rough.

Get and read Sarah Macdonald's Holy Cow! An Indian Adventure and for balance read a much more detailed book, Suketu Mehta's Maximum City: Bombay Lost and Found (This one is written by a native of Bombay/Mumbai and gives much information available only to insiders. It has some episodes that are so horrifying that if you are sensitive, you might not want to read this just before bed time)


Dont give up. One can spread a message for good without utilizing expensive advertising and turning oneself into a celebrity and focus for people's cravings- which is what Amma and these other commerical gurus do.

It takes lots of money to mount PR campaigns. One group puts glossy full color posters in cafe windows and bulletin boards all over town, advertising free classes.

It cost time and money to make those posters and then to distribute them.

So...how long can classes stay free. Eventually, people will be taken to a point where they will pay.

At least if one mails a package, one can label it as FRAGILE and reasonably hope that it wont be treated as roughly as, by some written accounts, Amma's disciples are handled on the Hug Processing Line

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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 21, 2011 11:28PM

Public Health Consideration

Quote

My turn was up, and it was all a somewhat scary blur. I was pushed to my knees, then shoved into the mother’s breast (Amma), which smelled like a thousand sprays of sandalwood and spices, and I noticed to my horror just before my face was shoved in that my head was being pushed to a spot on her shirt over her right breast where countless others had been pressed earlier that day. And it had a kind of wierd stain all over it, sort of bluish and spotted. I kinda got the icks a little and this was mostly what I was thinking about while my head and nose were pressed firmly against this stain.

[www.gaudiya-repercussions.com]


There is another matter to consider here.

All it takes is for just one person to be incubating and sheddling pathogrens from a communicable disease (Hep A, whooping cough, measles, TB) and for some of that to land on Amma's robe when that persons face is shoved into Amma's robe for a hug.

Any lingering pathogens on the fabric could be passed on to anyone else whose face and mouth are shoved into that wet spot on her sari, in the midst of a hugathon.

The matter is especially serious with TB-ordinary antiseptics are not enough to kill it.

TB and mouthpieces from Hookah Water pipes

[www.google.com]

Risk of Hep A transmission from using a common cup for Holy Communion

[topnews.us]

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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 22, 2011 12:29AM

Sarah Macdonald, Australian journalist and who lived in India for two years with her husband, also Australian and a journalist, writes this about guru mentality while covering the Kumbh Mela in Allahabad.

"The Hindu religion is a guru's gig, where ego is a dirty word and only supplication to a master can kill it. The closest thing I ever get to understanding the guru thing is my constant ability to fall in love with lead singers and bass players...I am not willing to touch the feet of any sadhus Ive seen so far. Its hard enough for me to surrender to a faith let alone to a fallible human...

"Besides, I am finding the guru mentality all too manifest in other areas of Indian life. I join Neeraj and Titi (two other reporters covering the Mela) at the media tent, where they are still awaiting a press pass...As we fill out more forms in triplicate, the press infomormation bureau officer sits behind a huge table revelling in his own authority to forbid filming.

(Corboy note: Suketu Mehta, author of Maximum City: Bombay Lost and Found, sums this us: "India is the country of 'No'." )

"Not that we believe in censorship but we have had to start checking some stories and changing bits"

I try to speak. He shows me the hand.

"Madam, even though it is impossible for us to be offended, because we respect all opinions and criticisms, the Western media has offended us by showing naked sadhus."

Macdonald writes, "I can't get a word in to tell the Raja of Red Tape that hte local media has featured more racy bits than the international press. As (the Press Information Officer speaks), four men watch, drinking in the glory of their Goebbels. They prostrate themselves before him, vigorously nod and fall over with laughter when he tries to be funny. They're unpaid crawlers, men with not enough work and too much time who just love to sit at the feet of someone more successful than themselves. Indians adore authority. To these guys, this middle ranking offical is a Buddha of bureaucracy and a priest of paperwork. To me, he is a dickhead of the highest order."

Holy Cow! An Indian Adventure by Sarah Macdonald.

Suketu Mehta in Maximum City points out that in India, everyone needs a connection, a fixer, a patron.

In some cases, it is as simple as finding a human connection with the person who is telling you 'No'. In some cases if you mention you have children, the person who started out telling you 'no' will turn out to have children too and see you as someone sharing a common ordeal--and then figure out who can fix your problem.

Other times, you will need a protector, a patron, a boss.

Here Suketu Mehta describes a form of 'juice' that his informants in Mumbai refer to as Powertoni.

A guru will have powertoni.

Quote

Powertoni
Suketu Mehta, 19 May 2005
Subjects:Culture asia & pacific arts & cultures literature
“Being Muslim or Hindu or Catholic was merely a personal eccentricity, like a hairstyle” but in the second extract from the prize-winning “Maximum city: Bombay lost and found”, Suketu Mehta also discovers a more sinister force: “powertoni”.
About the author
Suketu Mehta is a fiction writer and journalist based in New York. His first book, Maximum City: Bombay Lost and Found won the Kiriyama Prize.All great cities are schizophrenic, said Victor Hugo. Bombay has multiple-personality disorder. During the riots, the printing presses were running overtime. They were printing visiting cards, two sets for each person, one with a Muslim name and one with a Hindu name. When you were out in the city, if you got stopped your life depended on whether you answered to Ram or Rahim. Schizophrenia became a survival tactic.

People told people: the Muslims, angered by the destruction of the Babri Masjid, are stockpiling arms; there will be a bloodbath. The news was relayed at the pan-wallah’s, in the commuter train, during the office tea break. In the evenings, a small convoy of cars would drive on to the beach at Shivaji Park, turn towards the wide Arabian Sea, leave their headlights on and keep vigil all night. They were standing guard against the Iranian armada that was supposed to be just off the shores of Bombay, holds packed with all kinds of bombs and guns and missiles for the coming jihad.

Read more extracts from Maximum City: Bombay lost and found:
The Country of the No (introduction)
Powertoni (part I)
Pleasure: Vadapav Eaters’ City (part II)
Passages: a Self in the Crowd (part III)
After the riots, 240 NGOs united to put the city back together. Human chains of citizens were formed, stretching across the city, to demonstrate unity. Groups called Mohalla Ekta Committees were formed to bring together Hindus, Muslims and the police, to identify fist fights before they could escalate into riots. There hasn’t been a major riot since. But the fault lines had been set. An entire segment of the population had been made to feel like foreigners in the city in which they were born and raised.


*

In the Bombay I grew up in, being Muslim or Hindu or Catholic was merely a personal eccentricity, like a hairstyle. We had a boy in our class who I realise now from his name, Arif, must have been Muslim. I remember that he was an expert in doggerel and instructed us in an obscene version of a patriotic song, “Come, children, let me teach you the story of Hindustan”, in which the nationalistic exploits of the country’s leaders were replaced by the sexual escapades of Bombay’s movie stars. He didn’t do this because he was Muslim and hence unpatriotic. He did this because he was a twelve-year-old boy.

Now it mattered. Because it mattered to Bal Thackeray.

The Shiv Sena shakha in Jogeshwari was a long hall filled with pictures of Bal Thackeray and his late wife, a bust of Shivaji, and pictures of a muscle-building competition. Every evening, Bhikhu Kamath, the Shakha Pramukh, sat behind a table and listened to a line of supplicants, holding a sort of durbar. There was a handicapped man come to look for work as a typist. Another man wanted an electric connection to his slum. Husbands and wives who were quarrelling came to him for mediation. An ambulance was parked outside, part of a network of several hundred Sena ambulances ready to transport people from the slums to hospitals at all hours, at nominal charges.

In a city where municipal services are in a state of crisis, going through the Sena ensures access to such services. The Sena shakhas also act as a parallel government, like the party machines in American cities that helped immigrants get jobs and fixed streetlights. But the Sena likes to think of itself not so much as a political party but a social service organisation. It functions as an umbrella for a wide variety of organisations: a trade union with over 800,000 members, a students’ movement, a women’s wing, an employment network, a home for senior citizens, a cooperative bank, a newspaper.

Kamath was a diplomatic sort, hospitably showing me around his terrain. He had the reputation of being honest. “There are very few people like Bhikhu in the Sena,” said Sunil (a deputy leader of the Jogeshwari shakha, or branch, of the Shiv Sena). “He still has a black-and-white TV at home.” But he could be a street thug when the occasion warranted. And through his connections in the state government, he provided political cover for Sunil. ‘The ministers are ours. The police are in our hands. If anything happens to me, the minister calls,’ boasted Sunil. He nodded. “We have powertoni.”

He repeated the word a few times. Sunil had hired a Muslim boy in the Muslim locality for his cable business. “He has twelve brothers and six sisters. I give him money and his brother liquor. He will even beat up his brother for me. I hire him for powertoni.” Likewise, the holy man who exorcised his daughter had powertoni. Then I realised what the word was: a contraction of power of attorney, the awesome ability to act on someone else’s behalf or to have others do your bidding, to sign documents, release wanted criminals, cure illnesses, get people killed. Powertoni: a power that does not originate in yourself; a power that you are holding on somebody else’s behalf. It is the only kind of power that a politician has: a power of attorney ceded to him by the voter. Democracy is about the exercise, legitimate or otherwise, of this powertoni. All over Mumbai, the Shiv Sena is the one organisation that has powertoni. And the man with the greatest powertoni in Mumbai is the leader of the Shiv Sena himself, Bal Keshav Thackeray.

His monstrous ego was nurtured from infancy. Thackeray’s father considered himself a social reformer and anglicised his surname after William Makepeace Thackeray, the Victorian author of Vanity Fair. Thackeray’s mother had given birth to five girls and no sons. She prayed ardently to the family deity for a son and was blessed with Bal. He was therefore considered a navasputra, a boon directly from God. Thackeray, now in his seventies, is a cross between Pat Buchanan and Saddam Hussein. He has a cartoonist’s sense of the outrageous. He loves to bait foreign journalists with his professed admiration for Adolf Hitler. Thus, in an interview for Time magazine at the height of the riots, when he was asked if Indian Muslims were beginning to feel like Jews in Nazi Germany, his response was, “Have they behaved like the Jews in Nazi Germany? If so, there is nothing wrong if they are treated as Jews were in Nazi Germany.” A woman in the Jogeshwari slums observed, “Thackeray is more Muslim than I am.” He is a man obsessed by Muslims. “He watches us, how we eat, how we pray. If his paper doesn’t have the word ‘Muslims’ in its headline, it won’t sell a single copy.” The organ of his party is the newspaper Saamna (Confrontation), which, in Marathi and Hindi editions, distributes Thackeray’s venom all over Maharashtra.

Thackeray, like anybody else in the underworld, is called by many names: the Saheb, the Supremo, the Remote Control, and, most of all, the Tiger – after the symbol of the Shiv Sena. The newspapers are full of pictures of him next to pictures of tigers. Public billboards around the city likewise display his face next to that of a real tiger. He has taken pains to be present at the inauguration of a tiger safari park. He is a self-constructed mythic figure: he drinks warm beer, he smokes a pipe, he has an unusually close relationship with his daughter-in-law.

Sunil and the Sena boys described the Saheb for me. It was impossible to talk directly to him, they said; even an eloquent and fearless man like their Shakha Pramukh became tongue-tied in front of him, and then the Saheb would berate him. “Stand up! What’s the matter? Why are you dumb?” It was impossible to meet his eyes. On the other hand: “He likes it if you are direct with him. You should have the daring to ask direct questions. He doesn’t like a man who says ‘er... er...’”

Sunil’s colleague talked with great pride about the time every year on the Saheb’s birthday when they went to his bungalow and watched a long line of the city’s richest and most eminent line up to pay homage. “We watched all the big people – ministers, businessmen – bow and touch his feet. All the Tata-Birlas touch his feet and then talk to him.”

“Michael Jackson only meets presidents of countries. He came to meet Saheb,” his friend added. The president of the giant American corporation Enron had to go to Thackeray to get a power deal cleared. When Sanjay Dutt, son of the principled MP Sunil Dutt who resigned in disgust after the riots, was newly released from jail, his first stop, even before he went home, was to go to the Saheb and touch his feet. Every time one of the corporate gods or a member of the city’s film community or a politician from Delhi kowtowed before him, his boys got a thrill of pride, and their image of the Saheb as a powerful man, a man with powertoni, was reinforced.

They told me what to say if I met the Saheb. “Tell him, ‘Even today, in Jogeshwari, we are ready to die for you.’ Ask Saheb, ‘Those people who fought for you in the riots, for Hindutva, what can your Shiv Sena do for them? Those who laid their lives down on a word from you? What can the old parents of the Pednekar brothers, who have no other children, do?’”

I felt like a go-between carrying messages from the lover to the loved one: “Tell her I am ready to die for her.” But there was a hint of reproach in their questions, as if they felt their Saheb had been neglecting them, these people who had died for his love. As if the blood sacrifice their comrades had made had gone unacknowledged.
"

Westerners are going to Amma for love and healing.

She's an operator, a source of Powertoni--the kind of power that was misused and damaged the same Westerners who are now going to her for some kind of healing.

In his book, Suketu Mehta described very many in Mumbai, the best and brightest, who were looking for ways to abandon the city and leave India--the country was breaking down and no longer able to protect them.

And they were moving West to nations were rule of law is still effective.

So, here are Westerners, unaware of all the advantages they were born into, seeking answers from an Indian woman who wields Powertoni.

And being processed like parcels.

All this does is increase both her income and her ability to function as a fixer in India.

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Re: "The Hugging Saint" Launches Attack Site Against Ex-Devotees & Critics
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 17, 2013 09:32PM

An essay published by Julian Walker on Elephant Journal. After mentioning the Rolling Stone feature story on Amma, [www.culteducation.com] author suggests a thought experiment.

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]


Quote


Picture a 50 year old white guy in a cowboy hat with long grey hair and beard up on a throne.
Imagine him:

* hugging people all day,
* selling action figures of himself as a way to pray to him
* having a “stargazer” who sat at his feet in rapture every time he gave blessings to masses of people weeping
*charging $2k for the privilege of volunteering to work in his organization
* selling $5 K crowns he had “blessed”
* rumors of him being physically and emotionally abusive behind closed doors and a story of his closest disciple fleeing under cover of darkness hidden under a blanket on a car floor only years later to recount the underlying dysfunction.

What would you think then?

Bear in mind this is an exact summary of what the article above says about Amma.

Is it possible that our critical thinking and reasoning ability gets blinded by some of the cultural details and a part of us that wants to believe that an enlightened holy person from India might really exist?

Is it possible that built into the very structure of belief in magical gurus is the injunction not to question, not to think critically —because these are manifestations of “ego” and not “being in your heart…..”

Therein lies the rub.

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