Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 13, 2011 12:38AM
Must mention that attempts to open discussion about Muktananda's covert use of EST/Werner Erhard poison seems to elicit very little interest on other forums and blogs where recovery from Siddha Yoga and SYDA yoga are discussed.
This is very sad. So very many persons on such venues report that they are best by flashbacks or night time dreams of life at the ashram and wonder why they are still haunted by such, despite their efforts to break free.
Others wonder why they continue to feel yearnings for the ashram in spite of knowing at intellectual level about the deceit involved.
It would greatly assist freedom community to understand that part of the brew used to poison them was not of ancient Indian origin; it was highly potent American trance induction 'tech' created by Werner Erhard who befriended Muktananda and whose methods Muk incorporated into those Siddha Yoga intensives.
If one has been poisoned by two agents (bad Hindu guruism) and (EST trance technology) one needs to know this and know that recovery has to address both areas
1) knowledge of the Bad Hindu Guru tech
2) Awareness that ones trust was abused by Muktananda covertly slipping EST technology into his brew.
Recovery discussion will not be complete or fully effective for the SY community until full discussion includes a searching examination of LGAT methods and how to recover from these.
Discussing only the bad guru yoga without also naming and discussing the LGAT technology used by that guru will
continue to leave the ex SY members suffering and needlessly berating themselves for their recovery having been so difficult.
A cult exit counselor doesnt have the ability to order a full panel of tests. A client who has been at an ashram where LGAT tech was secretly used under cover of Kashmiri Shaivism and who does not know that Muktananda did learn and apply EST technology may not know that a former SY member needs to be treated for LGAT poisoning and lingering trance induction triggers, as well as treatment for after effects of bad guru yoga.
There are more serious implications.
If ex SY members do not know they have unconscious trance triggers implanted due to the LGAT methods covertly used on them by Muktananda, they will, without knowing it, be re-triggered by any other operator who knows how to exploit LGAT methods.
Without even consciously wanting to, a former SY member who has untreated EST/LGAT poisoning may be easily
fascinated by some other operator who has learned LGAT tech.
This is not weakness.
This is not a matter that can be addressed by intellect alone.
This is not a matter of craving mind.
What some call craving mind is here, in the case of SY surviviors, implanted trance triggers derived from EST, and coverly slipped in during Muktananda's Siddha Yoga intensives.
In my private citizen's First Amendment protected opinion, backed up by the quotations from the old AOL list serve, what Muktnanada did, in using EST tech in a capsule of Kashmiri Hindu Shaivism was to implant cravings where students did not yet have such cravings.
And by abusing EST tech through covert application, those trance/craving triggers were implanted below level of conscious awareness.
This is not ordinary craving mind of the kind human beings are born with.
What EST and other LGATs do is implant socially engineered triggers that are below the level of conscious awareness.
These triggers are implanted in such a way as to deflect conscious insight, much the way trauma memories deflect conscious awareness due to dissociatiative amnesia.
With great luck the victims may someday read about the partnership between Muk and Werner Erhard and recognize their lingering cravings may be dislodged through exit counseling designed to assist persons seeking recovery from LGATs.
This is very sad. So very many persons on such venues report that they are best by flashbacks or night time dreams of life at the ashram and wonder why they are still haunted by such, despite their efforts to break free.
Others wonder why they continue to feel yearnings for the ashram in spite of knowing at intellectual level about the deceit involved.
It would greatly assist freedom community to understand that part of the brew used to poison them was not of ancient Indian origin; it was highly potent American trance induction 'tech' created by Werner Erhard who befriended Muktananda and whose methods Muk incorporated into those Siddha Yoga intensives.
If one has been poisoned by two agents (bad Hindu guruism) and (EST trance technology) one needs to know this and know that recovery has to address both areas
1) knowledge of the Bad Hindu Guru tech
2) Awareness that ones trust was abused by Muktananda covertly slipping EST technology into his brew.
Recovery discussion will not be complete or fully effective for the SY community until full discussion includes a searching examination of LGAT methods and how to recover from these.
Discussing only the bad guru yoga without also naming and discussing the LGAT technology used by that guru will
continue to leave the ex SY members suffering and needlessly berating themselves for their recovery having been so difficult.
A cult exit counselor doesnt have the ability to order a full panel of tests. A client who has been at an ashram where LGAT tech was secretly used under cover of Kashmiri Shaivism and who does not know that Muktananda did learn and apply EST technology may not know that a former SY member needs to be treated for LGAT poisoning and lingering trance induction triggers, as well as treatment for after effects of bad guru yoga.
There are more serious implications.
If ex SY members do not know they have unconscious trance triggers implanted due to the LGAT methods covertly used on them by Muktananda, they will, without knowing it, be re-triggered by any other operator who knows how to exploit LGAT methods.
Without even consciously wanting to, a former SY member who has untreated EST/LGAT poisoning may be easily
fascinated by some other operator who has learned LGAT tech.
This is not weakness.
This is not a matter that can be addressed by intellect alone.
This is not a matter of craving mind.
What some call craving mind is here, in the case of SY surviviors, implanted trance triggers derived from EST, and coverly slipped in during Muktananda's Siddha Yoga intensives.
In my private citizen's First Amendment protected opinion, backed up by the quotations from the old AOL list serve, what Muktnanada did, in using EST tech in a capsule of Kashmiri Hindu Shaivism was to implant cravings where students did not yet have such cravings.
And by abusing EST tech through covert application, those trance/craving triggers were implanted below level of conscious awareness.
This is not ordinary craving mind of the kind human beings are born with.
What EST and other LGATs do is implant socially engineered triggers that are below the level of conscious awareness.
These triggers are implanted in such a way as to deflect conscious insight, much the way trauma memories deflect conscious awareness due to dissociatiative amnesia.
With great luck the victims may someday read about the partnership between Muk and Werner Erhard and recognize their lingering cravings may be dislodged through exit counseling designed to assist persons seeking recovery from LGATs.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 13, 2011 01:11AM
This is not the Siddha Yoga intensive but the Center's Leadership course.
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Center's Leader Training Course, South Fallsburg Ashram, Summer, 1992
The design of the Center Leader's Training Course that summer was quite
unique.
(Corboy--was it unique? Or was it merely LGAT on a harsher level?)
All participants were required to take not only the CLT courses (of
which there were two sessions each day for 5 days, one in the morning
before lunch, and the other in the afternoon after lunch); but were also
required to take a course in the morning (either Traditions of Siddha Yoga
1, or Traditions 2; this course went from after breakfast, until about 1/2
an hour before the CLT began); and a course in the evening, The No Ego
Course.
The 3 courses came as a package, and the fee was waived for CLT
participants for both the No Ego Course, and the Traditions courses. A
nominal fee, by SYDA standards was charged for the CLT Course (I seem to
recall it was $50 or so).
The effect of all these courses was that you were constantly being fed
information; you were always kept busy, and there was no extra time in your
day, except early in the morning, before breakfast; but, of course, it was
expected you'd meditate and attend the Guru Gita at those times.
The design of the courses themselves were very clever in imposing a way of thinking on
the participants. The Traditions courses were just informational, but there
was a lot of information, and you were going to be tested at the end.
The CLT courses were also filled with information, but also with exercises for
group processes, notably, TDH, Team Data Handling, a method of consensus
decision making in small groups.
Also during the trainings, well orchestrated presentations on controversial issues
were presented; for instance, the issue of dress codes was handled very slickly, but kind of
got out of hand, when the Germans and the French rebelled about having
culturally biased (i.e. American) dress codes being forced on them.
The real gem of the whole training, the one that broke down all resistance,
was The No Ego Course. For 5 to 6 hours each night, we were locked in the
hall of Muktananda Mandir and two swamis (Ishwarananda and Durgananda and
Peter Hayes, dressed in robes and masks, browbeat selected people with
personal attacks orchestrated by Gurumayi from the one-way mirrored glass
booth at the back of the hall. She would tell the swamis and Peter what to
say, and they'd repeat it word for word.
I know this is true, because the
first night, I sat up front, right in front of Peter Hayes, and could hear
Gurumayi's voice coming through his earphone. The next night, they turned
down the sound a bit.
The No Ego Course was classic pressure/release techniques.
Fire and brimstone were hurled at us for hour on end. (And even though not everyone
in the course was called on and personally attacked - there were 500+
people in the course - they made it very clear that anyone could be called
on, and read a list of 40 names at the beginning of each night, and said
that any of these people could be called on tonight, plus 5 more people!)
During the entire course, 3 television cameras panned the audience, and
Gurumayi would tell Peter or the swamis that she could see someone trying
to hide, or sleeping, or whatever.
The effect was a state of constant tension and fear. This was the pressure. The stress level gets very high,
and then is released.
(To add to the pressure, the music played at the beginning of the first night was loud, angry, non-SYDA music; some sort of free form jazz; the following nights, an instrumental version of the Guru
Gita was played before and after.)
The release, in this case, came at the end of each night's session, with the soothing music of the Guru Gita being
played. Everyone was told to go into the temple and offer their egos to
Bade Baba. Everyone was told to offer their egos to Gurumayi. Another
release came the next day, in the other two courses and trainings. You were
so relieved to not be under the gun of personal attack, it was a relief to
sit through them.
By the end of the week, you were exhausted from the tiring schedule: up
each morning at 4, meditate, chai, Guru Gita, rush over to Atma Nidi for
breakfast; rush back to the Main Building for the Traditions course; short
break, then into the CLT morning session; rush back to Atma Nidi for lunch;
rush back to the Main Building for afternoon session of CLT; break for
dinner, and back and forth to Atma Nidi again for that; perhaps a few
minutes for some dish seva in the spare 15 or 20 minutes; then it was time
for The No Ego Course in the Main Building, which ran from 7 until around
12:30-1 a.m.. each night.
The final and most intense pressure, after such a tiring week of ups and
downs, of pressures and releases, came on the last night.
A test had been promised, and they had given us volumes of information in with the brow
beating and personal attacks (lists of types of egos, what the
characteristics of each was; lists of all kinds of things to remember).
There was really no time to study for this test, plus they introduced more
lists of things on that final night. The heat was turned up also in the
personal attacks, and people that didn't want to be called on were again
made fun of and ridiculed as not ready to give their egos to the guru.
By 12:30 there had still been no test and they seemed to be wrapping up the
course.
Then they announced that there would be no test, and the course
would end with a chant. Those who wished to leave and go sleep could do so,
those who wished to stay should sit quietly and listen to the English
version of the Guru Gita, for remember, the guru takes away our egos,
surrender to the guru.
People were in tears listening to this soothing melody once again, for it had become the theme song of the release from the pressure, and to actually hear the words, and have them flashed on the
screens up front was a great release.
After about 20 minutes, Gurumayi walked into the hall and to her chair, the canned music stopped and the
live chant began. This was the ultimate release, there she was, the person
we were to release our egos to, here to save us from ourselves with her
love and compassion. (Of course we all overlooked and forgot that she was
the one who was browbeating us for 5 days from the back of the hall, hidden
behind a one way mirror.)
This pressure / release technique is used in many different ways. For
example, the fire and brimstone speeches at Baptist churches, followed by
the introduction of the saving grace of giving yourself to Jesus.
There is actually a chemical reaction happening in your body along with the
emotional roller coaster. The release triggers chemicals that make you feel
like you're being bathed in sweet nectar, covered in love. Siddha Yoga has
learned how to use this technique very well: The Fire Course, The Seva
Course, The No Ego Course. All use pressure/release techniques. Indeed, the
Intensive uses it also to some extent, and the guru is always the release.
Siddha Yoga fosters and promotes a sense of specialness within its ranks,
and indeed the CLT participants were told they were very special indeed. We
were all pretty much separated from everyone else in the ashram, for there
was little time for meeting anyone not in the CLT. We were even given a
special darshan with Gurumayi on the Saturday following the week of
training. We were taught things we couldn't pass on. We were special. And
Gurumayi was pleased with us. So we were happy.
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Center's Leader Training Course, South Fallsburg Ashram, Summer, 1992
The design of the Center Leader's Training Course that summer was quite
unique.
(Corboy--was it unique? Or was it merely LGAT on a harsher level?)
All participants were required to take not only the CLT courses (of
which there were two sessions each day for 5 days, one in the morning
before lunch, and the other in the afternoon after lunch); but were also
required to take a course in the morning (either Traditions of Siddha Yoga
1, or Traditions 2; this course went from after breakfast, until about 1/2
an hour before the CLT began); and a course in the evening, The No Ego
Course.
The 3 courses came as a package, and the fee was waived for CLT
participants for both the No Ego Course, and the Traditions courses. A
nominal fee, by SYDA standards was charged for the CLT Course (I seem to
recall it was $50 or so).
The effect of all these courses was that you were constantly being fed
information; you were always kept busy, and there was no extra time in your
day, except early in the morning, before breakfast; but, of course, it was
expected you'd meditate and attend the Guru Gita at those times.
The design of the courses themselves were very clever in imposing a way of thinking on
the participants. The Traditions courses were just informational, but there
was a lot of information, and you were going to be tested at the end.
The CLT courses were also filled with information, but also with exercises for
group processes, notably, TDH, Team Data Handling, a method of consensus
decision making in small groups.
Also during the trainings, well orchestrated presentations on controversial issues
were presented; for instance, the issue of dress codes was handled very slickly, but kind of
got out of hand, when the Germans and the French rebelled about having
culturally biased (i.e. American) dress codes being forced on them.
The real gem of the whole training, the one that broke down all resistance,
was The No Ego Course. For 5 to 6 hours each night, we were locked in the
hall of Muktananda Mandir and two swamis (Ishwarananda and Durgananda and
Peter Hayes, dressed in robes and masks, browbeat selected people with
personal attacks orchestrated by Gurumayi from the one-way mirrored glass
booth at the back of the hall. She would tell the swamis and Peter what to
say, and they'd repeat it word for word.
I know this is true, because the
first night, I sat up front, right in front of Peter Hayes, and could hear
Gurumayi's voice coming through his earphone. The next night, they turned
down the sound a bit.
The No Ego Course was classic pressure/release techniques.
Fire and brimstone were hurled at us for hour on end. (And even though not everyone
in the course was called on and personally attacked - there were 500+
people in the course - they made it very clear that anyone could be called
on, and read a list of 40 names at the beginning of each night, and said
that any of these people could be called on tonight, plus 5 more people!)
During the entire course, 3 television cameras panned the audience, and
Gurumayi would tell Peter or the swamis that she could see someone trying
to hide, or sleeping, or whatever.
The effect was a state of constant tension and fear. This was the pressure. The stress level gets very high,
and then is released.
(To add to the pressure, the music played at the beginning of the first night was loud, angry, non-SYDA music; some sort of free form jazz; the following nights, an instrumental version of the Guru
Gita was played before and after.)
The release, in this case, came at the end of each night's session, with the soothing music of the Guru Gita being
played. Everyone was told to go into the temple and offer their egos to
Bade Baba. Everyone was told to offer their egos to Gurumayi. Another
release came the next day, in the other two courses and trainings. You were
so relieved to not be under the gun of personal attack, it was a relief to
sit through them.
By the end of the week, you were exhausted from the tiring schedule: up
each morning at 4, meditate, chai, Guru Gita, rush over to Atma Nidi for
breakfast; rush back to the Main Building for the Traditions course; short
break, then into the CLT morning session; rush back to Atma Nidi for lunch;
rush back to the Main Building for afternoon session of CLT; break for
dinner, and back and forth to Atma Nidi again for that; perhaps a few
minutes for some dish seva in the spare 15 or 20 minutes; then it was time
for The No Ego Course in the Main Building, which ran from 7 until around
12:30-1 a.m.. each night.
The final and most intense pressure, after such a tiring week of ups and
downs, of pressures and releases, came on the last night.
A test had been promised, and they had given us volumes of information in with the brow
beating and personal attacks (lists of types of egos, what the
characteristics of each was; lists of all kinds of things to remember).
There was really no time to study for this test, plus they introduced more
lists of things on that final night. The heat was turned up also in the
personal attacks, and people that didn't want to be called on were again
made fun of and ridiculed as not ready to give their egos to the guru.
By 12:30 there had still been no test and they seemed to be wrapping up the
course.
Then they announced that there would be no test, and the course
would end with a chant. Those who wished to leave and go sleep could do so,
those who wished to stay should sit quietly and listen to the English
version of the Guru Gita, for remember, the guru takes away our egos,
surrender to the guru.
People were in tears listening to this soothing melody once again, for it had become the theme song of the release from the pressure, and to actually hear the words, and have them flashed on the
screens up front was a great release.
After about 20 minutes, Gurumayi walked into the hall and to her chair, the canned music stopped and the
live chant began. This was the ultimate release, there she was, the person
we were to release our egos to, here to save us from ourselves with her
love and compassion. (Of course we all overlooked and forgot that she was
the one who was browbeating us for 5 days from the back of the hall, hidden
behind a one way mirror.)
This pressure / release technique is used in many different ways. For
example, the fire and brimstone speeches at Baptist churches, followed by
the introduction of the saving grace of giving yourself to Jesus.
There is actually a chemical reaction happening in your body along with the
emotional roller coaster. The release triggers chemicals that make you feel
like you're being bathed in sweet nectar, covered in love. Siddha Yoga has
learned how to use this technique very well: The Fire Course, The Seva
Course, The No Ego Course. All use pressure/release techniques. Indeed, the
Intensive uses it also to some extent, and the guru is always the release.
Siddha Yoga fosters and promotes a sense of specialness within its ranks,
and indeed the CLT participants were told they were very special indeed. We
were all pretty much separated from everyone else in the ashram, for there
was little time for meeting anyone not in the CLT. We were even given a
special darshan with Gurumayi on the Saturday following the week of
training. We were taught things we couldn't pass on. We were special. And
Gurumayi was pleased with us. So we were happy.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 13, 2011 01:32AM
LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings) were all the rage when I was growing up in the 70s. They include Werner Erhart's now-defunct est, its successor The Forum (aka Landmark Education), Lifespring, and many spin-offs. I've never attended these, though the many Intensives I experienced with Swami Muktananda were heavily influenced by Werner, and gave me a strong taste of the group dynamic. The Truth about Human Potential Seminars is a blog covering the LGATs; The Awareness Page offers many links they say will help Awareness consumers make conscious informed decisions; and Rick Ross' site has the video Voyage to the Land of the New Gurus, a 2004 French TV report with hidden cameras inside an actual Landmark training.
[home.comcast.net]
And though this is cited elsewhere in this thread, lets cite it again--the great old AOL listserve
[www.ex-cult.org]
Subj: Re:Landmark Forum
Date: 96-04-12 10:05:03 EDT
From: Dissent222
More on Landmark Forum. Did you know Werner Erhard's real name is Jack
Rosenberg, and that he deserted his first wife and 4 children, and married
another woman (and incested two of the daughters he had by her), while he
was still married to the first wife he deserted? And that his claims to
having "completed" all these issues with all these family members are only
his delusions - the family members he abused are still devastated by the
damage he has done.
This is the man that so many people have trusted and believed in as their
savior. So many people in SYDA are going to these workshops. It's a bad
scene.
Subj: The SYDA/est conflict, c. 1990
Date: 96-04-12 13:21:55 EDT
From: Howie Sm
Dear AOL readers,
More Siddha Yoga history connecting an est spinoff to the SYDA discipleship.
Did you hear about the SYDA mess in Houston during late 1990?
After much three-way conflict between the center steering committee, center
participants, and GM/South Fallsburg, a SYDA center closed because SYDAites
were promoting LIFESPRING (an est spinoff) events during center programs.
Related to this is the story that around this time, Houston ashramites were
prohibited from doing seva (labor) because of their participation in
LIFESPRING.
Subj: You were there
Date: 96-04-12 15:52:00 EDT
From: BVena
Subj: SYDA and Erhard
Date: 96-04-13 06:09:17 EDT
From: Dissent222
Solo, Catherine Parrish is the new George Afif, except of course she's not
also having an affair with Gurumayi and seducing women in the ashram.
Catherine was once the Exec. Officer of the Hunger Project, Erhard's brazen
scheme to collect money in the name of ending hunger without actually giving
any of that money to any organization or person that had anything to do with
ending hunger. OK, he gave a few thousand of the millions he collected to
Oxfam, once. So Catherine Parrish ran that for Werner. She and her husband
Bill were both very active in est and the Forum and were high-ups in the
Werner Erhard world.
--Subj: Contempt
Date: 96-05-08 14:51:49 EDT
From: Dissent222
Dear Fibs (if I may be so bold as to address you using the diminutive version
of your name):
First of all, I've been a Fibonacci fan ever since I read about his numbers
in Smithsonian magazine years ago.
Next, I loved all your points in your latest. Yes, GM is incredibly isolated
and without contact with other spiritual leaders. This is partly because
genuine spirituality is not on her agenda -- control, power and wealth is.
But also, she is extremely dependent on maintaining her delusion of absolute,
ultimate perfection. (AS IF HER SINGING DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY BLOW THAT ONE
OUT
OF THE WATER ANYWAY!) Contact with other spiritual leaders could only leave
her vulnerable and would expose her delusional grandiosity, her contempt, and
her appalling ineptitude.
About the contempt GM has for others, how it undergirds her seductiveness and
magananimity. I'm going to quote a long one from Fromm's "Escape from
Freedom" This blew my mind when I read it.
"We find 3 kinds of sadistic tendencies, more or less closely knit together.
One is to make others dependent on oneself and to have absolute and
unrestricted power over them, so as to make of them nothing but instruments,
'clay in the potter's hand.' [Hemananda, Panne, and all the other battered
spouses] Another consists of the impulse not only to rule over others in this
absolute fashion, but to exploit them, and, so to speak, to incorporate
anything eatable in them. This desire can refer to material things as well as
to immaterial ones, such as the emotional or intellectual qualities a person
has to offer. [Those who know how GM usurps other people's talents and calls
them her own can understand this]. A third kind of sadistic tendency is the
wish to make others suffer or to see them suffer. This suffering can be
physical, but more often it is mental suffering. Its aim is to hurt
actively, to humiliate, embarrass others, or to see them in embarrassing and
humiliating situations.[the Seva Course, No Ego Course, Fire Course, etc.]
"...The sadist needs the person over whom he rules, he needs him very badly,
since his own feeling of strength is rooted in the fact that he is the master
over someone...Often [sadistic tendencies] are covered up by reaction
formations of overgoodness or overconcern for others. Some of the most
frequent rationalizations are the following: "I rule over you because I know
what is best for you, and in your own interest you should follow me without
opposition." Or, "I am so wonderful and unique, that I have a right to
expect that other people become dependent on me." Another rationalization
which often covers the exploiting tendencies is: "I have done so much for
you, and now I am entitled to take from you what I want." ...
"He may think he wishes to dominate their lives because he loves them so
much. HE ACTUALLY "LOVES" THEM BECAUSE HE DOMINATES THEM. He bribes
them
with material things, with praise, assurances of love, the display of wit and
brilliance, or by showing concern. He may give them everything - everything
except one thing: the right to be free and independent."
I experienced GM in every sentence of the above quote. Also Werner Erhard.
It's good to know that other people have seen through the hypnotic
manipulation to what's really going on. It really helps you not feel like
you're the crazy one
[home.comcast.net]
And though this is cited elsewhere in this thread, lets cite it again--the great old AOL listserve
[www.ex-cult.org]
Subj: Re:Landmark Forum
Date: 96-04-12 10:05:03 EDT
From: Dissent222
More on Landmark Forum. Did you know Werner Erhard's real name is Jack
Rosenberg, and that he deserted his first wife and 4 children, and married
another woman (and incested two of the daughters he had by her), while he
was still married to the first wife he deserted? And that his claims to
having "completed" all these issues with all these family members are only
his delusions - the family members he abused are still devastated by the
damage he has done.
This is the man that so many people have trusted and believed in as their
savior. So many people in SYDA are going to these workshops. It's a bad
scene.
Subj: The SYDA/est conflict, c. 1990
Date: 96-04-12 13:21:55 EDT
From: Howie Sm
Dear AOL readers,
More Siddha Yoga history connecting an est spinoff to the SYDA discipleship.
Did you hear about the SYDA mess in Houston during late 1990?
After much three-way conflict between the center steering committee, center
participants, and GM/South Fallsburg, a SYDA center closed because SYDAites
were promoting LIFESPRING (an est spinoff) events during center programs.
Related to this is the story that around this time, Houston ashramites were
prohibited from doing seva (labor) because of their participation in
LIFESPRING.
Subj: You were there
Date: 96-04-12 15:52:00 EDT
From: BVena
Subj: SYDA and Erhard
Date: 96-04-13 06:09:17 EDT
From: Dissent222
Solo, Catherine Parrish is the new George Afif, except of course she's not
also having an affair with Gurumayi and seducing women in the ashram.
Catherine was once the Exec. Officer of the Hunger Project, Erhard's brazen
scheme to collect money in the name of ending hunger without actually giving
any of that money to any organization or person that had anything to do with
ending hunger. OK, he gave a few thousand of the millions he collected to
Oxfam, once. So Catherine Parrish ran that for Werner. She and her husband
Bill were both very active in est and the Forum and were high-ups in the
Werner Erhard world.
--Subj: Contempt
Date: 96-05-08 14:51:49 EDT
From: Dissent222
Dear Fibs (if I may be so bold as to address you using the diminutive version
of your name):
First of all, I've been a Fibonacci fan ever since I read about his numbers
in Smithsonian magazine years ago.
Next, I loved all your points in your latest. Yes, GM is incredibly isolated
and without contact with other spiritual leaders. This is partly because
genuine spirituality is not on her agenda -- control, power and wealth is.
But also, she is extremely dependent on maintaining her delusion of absolute,
ultimate perfection. (AS IF HER SINGING DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY BLOW THAT ONE
OUT
OF THE WATER ANYWAY!) Contact with other spiritual leaders could only leave
her vulnerable and would expose her delusional grandiosity, her contempt, and
her appalling ineptitude.
About the contempt GM has for others, how it undergirds her seductiveness and
magananimity. I'm going to quote a long one from Fromm's "Escape from
Freedom" This blew my mind when I read it.
"We find 3 kinds of sadistic tendencies, more or less closely knit together.
One is to make others dependent on oneself and to have absolute and
unrestricted power over them, so as to make of them nothing but instruments,
'clay in the potter's hand.' [Hemananda, Panne, and all the other battered
spouses] Another consists of the impulse not only to rule over others in this
absolute fashion, but to exploit them, and, so to speak, to incorporate
anything eatable in them. This desire can refer to material things as well as
to immaterial ones, such as the emotional or intellectual qualities a person
has to offer. [Those who know how GM usurps other people's talents and calls
them her own can understand this]. A third kind of sadistic tendency is the
wish to make others suffer or to see them suffer. This suffering can be
physical, but more often it is mental suffering. Its aim is to hurt
actively, to humiliate, embarrass others, or to see them in embarrassing and
humiliating situations.[the Seva Course, No Ego Course, Fire Course, etc.]
"...The sadist needs the person over whom he rules, he needs him very badly,
since his own feeling of strength is rooted in the fact that he is the master
over someone...Often [sadistic tendencies] are covered up by reaction
formations of overgoodness or overconcern for others. Some of the most
frequent rationalizations are the following: "I rule over you because I know
what is best for you, and in your own interest you should follow me without
opposition." Or, "I am so wonderful and unique, that I have a right to
expect that other people become dependent on me." Another rationalization
which often covers the exploiting tendencies is: "I have done so much for
you, and now I am entitled to take from you what I want." ...
"He may think he wishes to dominate their lives because he loves them so
much. HE ACTUALLY "LOVES" THEM BECAUSE HE DOMINATES THEM. He bribes
them
with material things, with praise, assurances of love, the display of wit and
brilliance, or by showing concern. He may give them everything - everything
except one thing: the right to be free and independent."
I experienced GM in every sentence of the above quote. Also Werner Erhard.
It's good to know that other people have seen through the hypnotic
manipulation to what's really going on. It really helps you not feel like
you're the crazy one
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 05:56AM
A discussion from the mid 1990s about the Guru Gita
[groups.google.com]
Andy Comanda View profile More options Nov 11 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: Andy Comanda <bluepe...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: 1997/11/11
Subject: Re: Evidence
Andy Comanda wrote:
(quote)blackscorpio wrote:
> > A call for the evidence is a good thing; however, a lot of of the context
> > for this comes from experiences while in the Ashram. There is no rule that
> > says "The guru is perfect and if you question the perfection of the guru
> > such and such will happen".
> In the Guru Gita which everyone is instructed to chant, it is said
> something like,
"If God is angry with you the guru can help, but if the
guru is angry with you, no one can help"
(Andy Comanda continues)Being that I trashed my chanting book, this a only a paraphrase.
I called a friend. The exact quote is:
"The Guru is the supreme diety.
There is nothing higher than the Guru."
"If Lord Hari (Vishnu) is angry, the Guru protects you, but if the Guru
is angry, no one can save you."
[/i]
[groups.google.com]
Andy Comanda View profile More options Nov 11 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: Andy Comanda <bluepe...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: 1997/11/11
Subject: Re: Evidence
Andy Comanda wrote:
(quote)blackscorpio wrote:
> > A call for the evidence is a good thing; however, a lot of of the context
> > for this comes from experiences while in the Ashram. There is no rule that
> > says "The guru is perfect and if you question the perfection of the guru
> > such and such will happen".
> In the Guru Gita which everyone is instructed to chant, it is said
> something like,
"If God is angry with you the guru can help, but if the
guru is angry with you, no one can help"
(Andy Comanda continues)Being that I trashed my chanting book, this a only a paraphrase.
I called a friend. The exact quote is:
"The Guru is the supreme diety.
There is nothing higher than the Guru."
"If Lord Hari (Vishnu) is angry, the Guru protects you, but if the Guru
is angry, no one can save you."
[/i]
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 06:01AM
"Experiences Can be Engineered"
anti_sy View profile
More options Nov 6 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: anti...@hotmail.com
Date: 1997/11/06
Subject: That 2%
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
> For 98 per cent of the people who go to the ashram nothing really
> bad happens. They just get a mild spiritual boost in their lives and
> that is it. However, it is like cocaine. Two per cent of the people
> really flip out and it becomes their whole life. The SYDA yoga
> organization is very good at spotting them and sucking them in.
And it is that 2% that has suffered such heavy and horrible damage! It's
for that 2% that has shown such courage in mounting the LSY website and
this newsgroup.
"Nothing really bad happens." Look deeper: Total dependence on a "magic
being;" spending money like water; hours of voluntary slavery; abuse and
intimidation of the worst kinds going on behind the scenes; gm saying,
"It's always you. [your fault] It is!" "You'll never get rid of your
samskaras until you're fully realized." So that means *nobody* will be
realized. How is that supposed to make one feel? Never question
authority. Never think for yourself. "Trust your experiences."
Experiences can be engineered. Just think about it: *NOT* ALL EXPERIENCES
CAN BE TRUSTED. Even Hinduism knows it, how many times have your heard of
the simile of the snake in the rope? "Trust your experiences" is
absolutely pernicious. Nothing really bad happens? Think again.
[groups.google.com]
anti_sy View profile
More options Nov 6 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: anti...@hotmail.com
Date: 1997/11/06
Subject: That 2%
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
> For 98 per cent of the people who go to the ashram nothing really
> bad happens. They just get a mild spiritual boost in their lives and
> that is it. However, it is like cocaine. Two per cent of the people
> really flip out and it becomes their whole life. The SYDA yoga
> organization is very good at spotting them and sucking them in.
And it is that 2% that has suffered such heavy and horrible damage! It's
for that 2% that has shown such courage in mounting the LSY website and
this newsgroup.
"Nothing really bad happens." Look deeper: Total dependence on a "magic
being;" spending money like water; hours of voluntary slavery; abuse and
intimidation of the worst kinds going on behind the scenes; gm saying,
"It's always you. [your fault] It is!" "You'll never get rid of your
samskaras until you're fully realized." So that means *nobody* will be
realized. How is that supposed to make one feel? Never question
authority. Never think for yourself. "Trust your experiences."
Experiences can be engineered. Just think about it: *NOT* ALL EXPERIENCES
CAN BE TRUSTED. Even Hinduism knows it, how many times have your heard of
the simile of the snake in the rope? "Trust your experiences" is
absolutely pernicious. Nothing really bad happens? Think again.
[groups.google.com]
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 06:03AM
More Golden oldies thanks to Google listserves.
[groups.google.com]
View profile
More options Nov 5 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: d13...@hotmail.com (w)
Date: 1997/11/05
Subject: My experience has always been great - No regrets!!
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
For myself, my experience of Siddha Yoga has been great. I will honestly say
that I have been practising Siddha Yoga for a long time and I know thousands of
people who have only benifited by it.
Of the people who complain the loudest, I know several of the most outspoken ,
and I can say that I'm not surprized by their issues. But knowing several of
them and their issues, their complaints are colored by their own unresolved
issues. Their issues show up again and again wherever they go and I suspect
that the monsters and evils they see, that they might do well by looking inside
at themselves.
I do wish that that for those people who Siddha Yoga was not a good experience,
that they move on with their lives so they can be happy.
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
sresnick View profile
More options Nov 5 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: sresn...@slip.net
Date: 1997/11/05
Subject: Re: My experience has always been great - No regrets!!
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
d13...@hotmail.com (w) wrote:
>For myself, my experience of Siddha Yoga has been great. I will honestly say
>that I have been practising Siddha Yoga for a long time and I know thousands
>of people who have only benifited by it.
There's no doubt that many people get lots of happiness & good feelings
from Siddha Yoga. (I personally had wonderful experiences in the ashrams,
though I've had even more interesting & enjoyable experiences through
other means since I've left.)
But for d13579 to say that she knows 1000s of people who only benefited
from it is classic exaggeration. Even when talking about a close friend,
how can we judge whether they've "only benefited"? Let alone when talking
about 1000s of people who are at best acquaintences. Perhaps d13579 has
seen 1000s of people smiling sweetly & talking nicely at the ashrams, &
has drawn conclusions from that.
>Of the people who complain the loudest, I know several of the most outspoken,
>and I can say that I'm not surprized by their issues. But knowing several of
>them and their issues, their complaints are colored by their own unresolved
>issues. Their issues show up again and again wherever they go and I suspect
>that the monsters and evils they see, that they might do well by looking
>inside at themselves.
There are serious charges against the Siddha Yoga organization. For
instance, folks from the ashram followed a "competing" guru (Swami
Nityananda) around the country to verbally & physically harass him & his
followers. In Ann Arbor, the Siddha Yoga people went so far as to throw
skunk oil into a room where Nityananda was holding a meditation program.
But rather than dealing with such charges, d13579 talks about unnamed
people who have undefined "issues."
>I do wish that that for those people who Siddha Yoga was not a good
>experience, that they move on with their lives so they can be happy.
Even though I've moved on (I've set foot in an ashram once or twice in
the past 6 years), I still enjoy talking about it. Getting into & out of
Siddha Yoga was a unique experience; the internet is the perfect medium
for finding others who can relate. And of course, if there's anyone who
is going through some suffering connected with their experience, those of
us who have been through it before may be able to help.
Stuart
sresn...@slip.net
[www.slip.net]
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
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Daniel Shaw View profile
More options Nov 7 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: Shaw...@aol.com (Daniel Shaw)
Date: 1997/11/07
Subject: Re: My experience has always been great - No regrets!!
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
In article <345fe05b.30898...@newsa.zelacom.com>,
d13...@hotmail.com (w) wrote:
> I do wish that that for those people who Siddha Yoga was not a good experience,
> that they move on with their lives so they can be happy.
Thanks -- but please understand, I HAVE gone on with my life and I AM
happy - not to brag, but yes, I'm lucky enough to be able to say that I
enjoy a great deal of happiness in my life.
I continue to participate in activities that publicly criticize SYDA for
several reasons, none of which have to do with not having gone on with my
life or being unhappy.
The reasons are:
1) I know how damaging and destructive it was for me to be involved in
SYDA for many years, and how damaging it has been for so many others. I
feel connected with and supported by people who have left SYDA. I want
to be available to anyone who has left and is struggling with the
feelings of loss and betrayal. I know how helpful it has been for me to
be able to communicate with and share experiences with others who have
left.
2) Because of my involvement over 10 years on staff of SYDA, I know many
of the secrets and lies that are at the core of SYDA, and since I have
always cared about truth and integrity, I feel a duty to make that
information available. SYDA lies about its history, it rewrites its
history, and it continues to deceive people, who leave jobs, friends and
families to devote their lives to SYDA. I consider this a tragedy and am
committed to making information about SYDA available to the public.
The issues I consider most relevant about SYDA that are lied about and
distorted by SYDA were stated in an Open Letter about SYDA back in 1995.
That letter can be read at [www.cyberpass.net]
When I have more time, I will reprint that letter here.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
[groups.google.com]
View profile
More options Nov 5 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: d13...@hotmail.com (w)
Date: 1997/11/05
Subject: My experience has always been great - No regrets!!
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
For myself, my experience of Siddha Yoga has been great. I will honestly say
that I have been practising Siddha Yoga for a long time and I know thousands of
people who have only benifited by it.
Of the people who complain the loudest, I know several of the most outspoken ,
and I can say that I'm not surprized by their issues. But knowing several of
them and their issues, their complaints are colored by their own unresolved
issues. Their issues show up again and again wherever they go and I suspect
that the monsters and evils they see, that they might do well by looking inside
at themselves.
I do wish that that for those people who Siddha Yoga was not a good experience,
that they move on with their lives so they can be happy.
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
sresnick View profile
More options Nov 5 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: sresn...@slip.net
Date: 1997/11/05
Subject: Re: My experience has always been great - No regrets!!
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
d13...@hotmail.com (w) wrote:
>For myself, my experience of Siddha Yoga has been great. I will honestly say
>that I have been practising Siddha Yoga for a long time and I know thousands
>of people who have only benifited by it.
There's no doubt that many people get lots of happiness & good feelings
from Siddha Yoga. (I personally had wonderful experiences in the ashrams,
though I've had even more interesting & enjoyable experiences through
other means since I've left.)
But for d13579 to say that she knows 1000s of people who only benefited
from it is classic exaggeration. Even when talking about a close friend,
how can we judge whether they've "only benefited"? Let alone when talking
about 1000s of people who are at best acquaintences. Perhaps d13579 has
seen 1000s of people smiling sweetly & talking nicely at the ashrams, &
has drawn conclusions from that.
>Of the people who complain the loudest, I know several of the most outspoken,
>and I can say that I'm not surprized by their issues. But knowing several of
>them and their issues, their complaints are colored by their own unresolved
>issues. Their issues show up again and again wherever they go and I suspect
>that the monsters and evils they see, that they might do well by looking
>inside at themselves.
There are serious charges against the Siddha Yoga organization. For
instance, folks from the ashram followed a "competing" guru (Swami
Nityananda) around the country to verbally & physically harass him & his
followers. In Ann Arbor, the Siddha Yoga people went so far as to throw
skunk oil into a room where Nityananda was holding a meditation program.
But rather than dealing with such charges, d13579 talks about unnamed
people who have undefined "issues."
>I do wish that that for those people who Siddha Yoga was not a good
>experience, that they move on with their lives so they can be happy.
Even though I've moved on (I've set foot in an ashram once or twice in
the past 6 years), I still enjoy talking about it. Getting into & out of
Siddha Yoga was a unique experience; the internet is the perfect medium
for finding others who can relate. And of course, if there's anyone who
is going through some suffering connected with their experience, those of
us who have been through it before may be able to help.
Stuart
sresn...@slip.net
[www.slip.net]
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
[www.dejanews.com] Search, Read, Post to Usenet
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
Daniel Shaw View profile
More options Nov 7 1997, 1:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: Shaw...@aol.com (Daniel Shaw)
Date: 1997/11/07
Subject: Re: My experience has always been great - No regrets!!
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
In article <345fe05b.30898...@newsa.zelacom.com>,
d13...@hotmail.com (w) wrote:
> I do wish that that for those people who Siddha Yoga was not a good experience,
> that they move on with their lives so they can be happy.
Thanks -- but please understand, I HAVE gone on with my life and I AM
happy - not to brag, but yes, I'm lucky enough to be able to say that I
enjoy a great deal of happiness in my life.
I continue to participate in activities that publicly criticize SYDA for
several reasons, none of which have to do with not having gone on with my
life or being unhappy.
The reasons are:
1) I know how damaging and destructive it was for me to be involved in
SYDA for many years, and how damaging it has been for so many others. I
feel connected with and supported by people who have left SYDA. I want
to be available to anyone who has left and is struggling with the
feelings of loss and betrayal. I know how helpful it has been for me to
be able to communicate with and share experiences with others who have
left.
2) Because of my involvement over 10 years on staff of SYDA, I know many
of the secrets and lies that are at the core of SYDA, and since I have
always cared about truth and integrity, I feel a duty to make that
information available. SYDA lies about its history, it rewrites its
history, and it continues to deceive people, who leave jobs, friends and
families to devote their lives to SYDA. I consider this a tragedy and am
committed to making information about SYDA available to the public.
The issues I consider most relevant about SYDA that are lied about and
distorted by SYDA were stated in an Open Letter about SYDA back in 1995.
That letter can be read at [www.cyberpass.net]
When I have more time, I will reprint that letter here.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 06:10AM
NLP Course Reportedly Taught at South Fallsberg
[groups.google.com]
Shawdan View profile
More options Jun 27 1998, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: shaw...@aol.com (Shawdan)
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
In article <1998062717231200.NAA20...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
annielo...@aol.com (Annielori9) writes:
>All of which means that Siddha Yoga has no doubt incorporated some of the
>techniques from NPL into courses etc.
Some big NLP teachers are SY devotees. Anthony Robbins of informercial fame is
a big NLP guy. Werner Erhard used a lot of NLP stuff. I took a course in it
at the So. Falls. ashram. Not impressed - I thought it was basically one more
presentation of manipulative techniques for acting and looking like you have
total control over everyone and everything - a kind of pretentiously
psychological sales technique to get other people to buy what you're selling.
Not for me.
***************
Shaw...@aol.com (Daniel Shaw)
[members.aol.com]
"It has been my experience that folks with no vices have few virtues." --
Abraham Lincoln
"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master." -- Abraham Lincoln
[groups.google.com]
Shawdan View profile
More options Jun 27 1998, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: shaw...@aol.com (Shawdan)
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
In article <1998062717231200.NAA20...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
annielo...@aol.com (Annielori9) writes:
>All of which means that Siddha Yoga has no doubt incorporated some of the
>techniques from NPL into courses etc.
Some big NLP teachers are SY devotees. Anthony Robbins of informercial fame is
a big NLP guy. Werner Erhard used a lot of NLP stuff. I took a course in it
at the So. Falls. ashram. Not impressed - I thought it was basically one more
presentation of manipulative techniques for acting and looking like you have
total control over everyone and everything - a kind of pretentiously
psychological sales technique to get other people to buy what you're selling.
Not for me.
***************
Shaw...@aol.com (Daniel Shaw)
[members.aol.com]
"It has been my experience that folks with no vices have few virtues." --
Abraham Lincoln
"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master." -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 06:17AM
[groups.google.com]
mahalinga View profile
More options Jun 27 1998, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: MahaLi...@my-dejanews.com
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
In article <1998062708392300.EAA21...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
shaw...@aol.com (Shawdan) wrote:
> Seriously, there are so many kinds of therapy and therapists. Many different
> theoretical and technical varieties, and MANY therapists with little or no
> training, but lots of entrepeneurial enterprise and the ability to influence
> others. Be an educated consumer is my advice.
Do you know anything about NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming)? What's the
general theory behind it, etc. How does it compare to other therapies, in your
opinion.
The reason I ask is . . .
I found a website on using NLP methods to achieve enlightenment. German
author is Wolfgang Bernard. Looks fascinating but (potentially?) cultish. If
I can oversimplify, he says the thoughts in our minds are just
representations of the world, like a map is a representation of the territory
it describes. We spend our time perceiving our thoughts about the world, not
perceiving the world directly. He uses his own flavor of NLP to quiet the
mind to reach a thought- free state, free from attachment and aversion. The
last thought to be quieted is the "core belief" as he calls it; the
unconscious thought that we are separate, separate from each other, and from
God. This is my paraphrase, I can only understand it through the framework
that SY taught me.
Anyhow, it resonates with what is true (for me) about the SY teachings.
Any feedback or advice, from Dan or anyone else? Thanks.
Love, -MahaLinga
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: annielo...@aol.com (Annielori9)
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
>D[/b]
[groups.google.com]
>Do you know anything about NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming)?
Annielori9 View profile >Do you know anything about NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming)? Interesting you should bring this up. c. I glanced through the books and they seemed quite simplistic. I don't think they were by the German author you mentioned. All of which means that Siddha Yoga has no doubt incorporated some of the techniques from NPL into courses etc. AL
More options Jun 27 1998, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
[groups.google.com]
From: annielo...@aol.com (Annielori9)
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
>D
Interesting you should bring this up. When I went to GSP many years ago, I was
asked by a couple that taught NPL to take some books on the subject to the
swamis. I glanced through the books and they seemed quite simplistic. I don't
think they were by the German author you mentioned.
All of which means that Siddha Yoga has no doubt incorporated some of the
techniques from NPL into courses etc.
AL
mahalinga View profile
More options Jun 27 1998, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: MahaLi...@my-dejanews.com
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
In article <1998062708392300.EAA21...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
shaw...@aol.com (Shawdan) wrote:
> Seriously, there are so many kinds of therapy and therapists. Many different
> theoretical and technical varieties, and MANY therapists with little or no
> training, but lots of entrepeneurial enterprise and the ability to influence
> others. Be an educated consumer is my advice.
Do you know anything about NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming)? What's the
general theory behind it, etc. How does it compare to other therapies, in your
opinion.
The reason I ask is . . .
I found a website on using NLP methods to achieve enlightenment. German
author is Wolfgang Bernard. Looks fascinating but (potentially?) cultish. If
I can oversimplify, he says the thoughts in our minds are just
representations of the world, like a map is a representation of the territory
it describes. We spend our time perceiving our thoughts about the world, not
perceiving the world directly. He uses his own flavor of NLP to quiet the
mind to reach a thought- free state, free from attachment and aversion. The
last thought to be quieted is the "core belief" as he calls it; the
unconscious thought that we are separate, separate from each other, and from
God. This is my paraphrase, I can only understand it through the framework
that SY taught me.
Anyhow, it resonates with what is true (for me) about the SY teachings.
Any feedback or advice, from Dan or anyone else? Thanks.
Love, -MahaLinga
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
From: annielo...@aol.com (Annielori9)
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
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>D[/b]
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>Do you know anything about NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming)?
Annielori9 View profile >Do you know anything about NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming)? Interesting you should bring this up. c. I glanced through the books and they seemed quite simplistic. I don't think they were by the German author you mentioned. All of which means that Siddha Yoga has no doubt incorporated some of the techniques from NPL into courses etc. AL
More options Jun 27 1998, 12:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.support.ex-cult.siddha-yoga
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From: annielo...@aol.com (Annielori9)
Date: 1998/06/27
Subject: Re: Therapists and NLP
Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
>D
Interesting you should bring this up. When I went to GSP many years ago, I was
asked by a couple that taught NPL to take some books on the subject to the
swamis. I glanced through the books and they seemed quite simplistic. I don't
think they were by the German author you mentioned.
All of which means that Siddha Yoga has no doubt incorporated some of the
techniques from NPL into courses etc.
AL
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 06:21AM
Once again, given this information now available from the Google listserve discussions in the 1990s, NLP does, from these discussions, appear to be part of the brew used by Gurumayi, as well as the EST tech taught to Muktananda by Werner Erhard.
If anyone who has served time in Siddha or SYDA yoga still struggles with his or her recovery, investigate the methods used in Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGATs) and insist that this topic be discussed, thorougly discussed in depth on the SY websites and in your own counseling.
Your craving mind is not the problem. Material from Werner Erhard was used to install cravings within you that were not your own natural desires, but socially engineered and slipped in without your prior and informed consent.
If anyone who has served time in Siddha or SYDA yoga still struggles with his or her recovery, investigate the methods used in Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGATs) and insist that this topic be discussed, thorougly discussed in depth on the SY websites and in your own counseling.
Your craving mind is not the problem. Material from Werner Erhard was used to install cravings within you that were not your own natural desires, but socially engineered and slipped in without your prior and informed consent.
Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: April 17, 2011 09:59AM
Since Mahalinga mentioned Wolfgang Bernard, here is an article/interview
[www.spiritualteachers.org]
[www.spiritualteachers.org]
Quote
Wolfgang Bernard proposes to use the techniques of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) to explode our belief in a personal identity. He calls this the uncovering of the "Original Belief". I have never met the man (he lives in France), but have read his book NLP And Beyond - The Original Belief Process. He was kind enough to answer a few questions of mine via email:
2007 Interview
Q: Why have you chosen to teach under the banner of "advaita non-duality"? I don't recall seeing this mentioned by you several years ago.
A: i've never really been deeply involved into advaita. but over the years many people (students and others) who had studied advaita told me that my teaching is advaita. two of them are more known to a larger public: stephen wolinsky and frank maiello (egodust).
Q: Along that line, the next natural question is: how has your teaching evolved over the past four or five years?
A: i've stopped doing workshops five years ago, and since then i only work with my closer students and i offer e-mail teaching (more on this on my website) since 2004.
Q: Do you have any intention of returning to offering workshops, or has email dialogue proven to be more effective?
A: it's not a question of effectiveness. i had stopped the workshops because i wanted to retire for some time and i don't have the intention to restart. i had more and more requests by e-mail, and it felt okay to start dialogue e-mail based teaching. as you ask me about effectiveness: yes, the e-mail teaching is as effective as the workshops. but the effectiveness largely depends on the degree of engagement/investement of the student.
Q: Are there any contemporary teachers you think are worthy?
A: to be able to answer your question, i would have to know these teachers personally. the only one i know personally is stephen wolinsky who has become a close friend but he doesn't teach anymore on an individual basis. he comments on nisargadatta on several dvd's that might be helpful for a seeker: Neti Neti Films
Q: Are any of your former students now teachers?
A: no, none of them has the vocation of becoming a teacher.
Q: A question I've wanted to ask for some time: Why do you charge people to help them? Since it is by email, you are not incurring costs that need coverage. It's hard for me to understand how someone who has seen through the illusion of life could turn around and demand to be paid to help others escape. To exchange money for help in discovering the Highest seems like a slippery slope.
A: here are the main reasons: 1. i need money for my living and i don't have any other income. 2. the one who pays me has given me something in return, so (s)he never gets the feeling of owing me something. 3. people don't pay me for getting help, they pay me for the time i spend. i could spend this time to earn money elsewhere.
Q: What if I don't have enough money? Could I pay you 25 Euros a month?
A: i can't tell you in advance, it depends on how i will decide in a given moment with a given person. first there are some e-mail exchanges and if i accept you as a student, and if you're unable to earn money and have no savings, then this might be possible (or not :).
Q: As you can tell, it is difficult for me to understand why some teachers would never charge to help someone, and why others do charge. Did Rajneesh charge you money?
A: one had to pay for the lectures and workshops, darshans were free.
Q: How about Yvan Amar?
A: there was a fee for the lectures.
Q: How do you keep being a spiritual teacher from becoming just another job?
A: because teaching is a major part of my essential value.
Q: Isn't there the temptation to gather more students to make more money?
A: no, i'm not interested in gathering students. there are quite a lot of requirements to fulfill before i accept someone as a student. my basic presupposition is: those who are meant to work with me will eventually find me.
Q: Or to keep students longer than necessary because you have bills to pay?
A: if i did so it would be what i call 'personal interest'. i regularly tell my students: 'the door to enter is quite narrow but the door to leave is always wide open.'
Q: Doesn't seem like it would be a steady source of income.
A: that's a non-issue for me. once you are into the dynamics of your essential value you automatically get what you need to be able to express it. 1. you have trust in life and there is no more fear. 2. you know that you have discovered the highest value, the best of the best within yourself. 3. you know that you would ruin this by allowing personal interest.
part of my liberation (from ego addiction) has been the understanding that desires/personal interest unavoidably bring up unnecessary suffering. having experienced ultimate relief and knowing this, i'm not even tempted.
2003 Interview
1. I gather that your teaching is taking the form of workshops. How should a person prepare before coming to a workshop? For example, should they be well versed in NLP?
WB: Here's how it happens: friends organize a 2 days meeting with not more than 15 participants who have to have read my book. It's question and answers. Participants can come only once, then they have to decide if they attend to a 2 years nlp training with me (13x3 days). I don't accept everyone. It's using regular nlp technology but the overall approach is not to enhance identity but rather to understand the mechanisms of it in order to be able to become free of it. Usually participants live what I call "existential breakthroughs". My goal for them is to be able to live this on a permanent basis independantly of me. After the two years I might invite some of them to twice a year meetings (4 days; we're about 25).
2. Are those who speak English able to attend?
WB: No.
3. Is there anyone in America doing equivalent work?
WB: Not as far as I know. Stephen Wolinsky did so, but he's stopped teaching. For the time being, I also don't plan new trainings.
3. You don't seem to be travelling the world putting on a show.
WB: Right. I only accept to work with those whom I consider to have the potential to "make it". That's probably less than 1% of so-called spiritual seekers.
4. Have any of them discovered what you have?
WB: Yes.
5. Do you recommend that a person spend an extended time working closely with you, or can they simply come to a workshop and leave with all the tools they need to "do the job."
WB: I'm present for them during the workshops only; I don't answer any personal questions on the phone. Sometimes I answer questions on a mailing list. They know that I "hate" people relying on me (laughing). I leave them with the tools and they do (or not) the job.
6. Do you have an opinion on the neo-Advaita teachers such as: Francis Lucille, Tony Parsons, or Gangaji?
WB: Not really. Most of the teachers I heard of (exept stephen wolinsky) may live or pretend to live something similar to what I live but probably do not have the tools to get their students to live the same thing. My teaching is like a traditional existential school teaching on a small basis. It happens with selected students who are willing and able to work on themselves for many years and who are able to take their responabilities in daily life. I insist that they continue to live their family and professional life unless there are obvious, good sense reasons for a change. The only teaching that has become more known which is similar to what I do (although with a completely different methodology) is Gurdjieff's.
7. You said you don't plan any new trainings. Do you mean you aren't accepting new students?
WB: Yes, for the time being, I have decided to take a break. I don't know yet if I'll continue in 2004 or not.
8. Has your own state "faded" in and out, or varied in its constancy?
WB: It's not a state. Yes, when "it" happened to stabilize about ten years ago, there was some weeks later two days when "it" dissapeared. Then "it" came back, fortunately for me, it was grace that made it come back because I was unable to do anything to get "it" back. I knew what made it fade (attachment to bliss sensations), since then I'm aware of it and never ever faded. Very slight variations in constancy once in a while, maybe once or twice a year.
9. Do you think we are all already enlightened, but just don't know it?
WB: Yes, of course.
10. I suspect that if people don't discover their true nature in this life, then they will continue to search in another life. I do not know this for certain, though. Perhaps at death, everyone discovers their true self. What do you think is the after-death fate of unenlightened people?
WB: I don't know and I don't know if there is reincarnation or not. My only reference is the present.
Wolfgang offers help via email, but charges a significant fee (100 Euros a month). Visit his webpage at:
www.finaldialogue.com
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