Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: May 17, 2012 10:06PM

dabcult:

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 17, 2012 11:44PM

dabcult - great post on the book Barbara. I also read it and found many things informative. The one family tendency that comes through is narcissism. Butler had it from an early age along with a charismatic personality. Do you remember the story where Chris was left at a gas station and when then returned to get him he had adoring fans who were giving him candy! He also had an uncle with extreme religious affections. Butler's Dad was a great and compassionate man who loved his son very much. He did not cover a lot about Chris in the book. Notice there are no photos of him but there were several of his other siblings. I am sure that was at Chis's request. From the book you can see that the better man is Chris's brother Bruce. I admire his loyalty to his Dad and Mom, even though he got duped into the cult by his brother...but again you see he has the quality of character that Chris lacks...loyalty.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: dabcult ()
Date: May 18, 2012 12:47AM

What did happen to BRUCE ......is he still part of the cult ?

and what about KURT that was so estrange from his faher and at time so insulting to his father ......what happen to him and his relation with the cult ?

and the sister ?

Questioning Any of them could make a gtreat video ....?

IF I was to return to Hawaii soon ...would any of the participants of this forum(or someone they know that was in the cult and witness stuff around CHRIS BUTLER willing to tell their story for a YOUTUBE VIDEO ?(maybee with special video edhiting to blure the faces )

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: dabcult ()
Date: May 18, 2012 02:35AM

If Chris Butler did not get his homophobic beleifs from his father and mother .....he must have got it from Swami Bhaktivedanta
with quotes such as this one


They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosexuality , they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society there is no homosexuality. They have created homosexuality, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that? (That quote was way before gay marriages all over the USA)
Prabhup├Ąda: Just see. If you say that they are equal to the animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. They are less than animal civilization.

Unfortunatly Chris Butler is only one of thousands that have become ANTI HOMOSEXUAL due to such quotes from Swami Bhaktivedanta .

In reality Swami Bhaktivedanta was completely wrong ...a search on YOUTUBE about ..HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE ANIMAL KINGDOM
will reveal a few very good National Geographic videos showing that to date more than 400 species of animals have some form of homosexual or lesbian relationships..........So when you have a stupid man like MIKE GABBARD .....that is brainwash by a "Jagad Guru" who has no real education about anything......and repeat the ignorant quotes of his guru Swami Bhaktivedanta .....you create a man that become super homophobic ready to create radio and tv programs(as he did in the 90 ies to bash the gays and lesbian community .....
but for those of us that where around Swami Bhaktivedanta in the 60 ies ......we know that homosexuality as rampant in his mouvement
and he just ignore it .......
Have you ever look at all the pictures of Krishna ....an androgenous type of GOD more feminine than masculine
No wonder so many gays wanted to worship him .....he is a completely different GOD than the angry OLD MAN of the ancient testament.

I must admit that after 4 years of licing closely with Bhaktivedanta .....I BECAME very HOMOPHOBIC
It took lots of deprogramming and studies of psychology .....to realise that he was PLAIN WRONG
He was a product of his own culture .......and his own interpretations of his scriptures

BUTLER is not a very intelligent man when it come to THEOLOGY ....HE IS MOSTLY LIKE THE GABBARDS...an ignorant BIGOT

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: May 18, 2012 03:02AM

Bhaktivedanta was an old gent who was from the Bengali elite in Calcutta.

The Bengalis had a dominent role in British India until 1911, when the Raj moved its HQ from Calcutta to Delhi, a process that made the Bengalis less important and led to increased influence for the Punjabis, whom the sophisticated Bengali elite considered bumpkins.

The Bengali elite felt this rejection keenly and detested the Brits for that.

So anyone who could serve as a culture bearer for Bengali culture (and its covert pattern of prejudices) would have been lionised - as Bhaktivendanta was.

Prabhupada's naive Western followers had no way to know that the fellow was using them to boost prestige and gain power and pelf for the Bengalis to soothe them in compensation for their rejection by the Brits and the further weakening of Bengal by the terms of the 1947 Partition which split East Pakistan now Bangladesh) from the Bengal region and ruined Calcutta further by cutting the city off from its trading partners further up in Dakka and Chittagong.

Old Prabhupada was sex negative, as well as homophobic. Whats amusing is that he decried "sensualism" but adored superbly cooked food.

Sensualism in the form of sexual tenderness was sinful, but not sensualism if indulged at table.

Little did the Western youngsters know that they were not being taught a transcendental spirituality, but a freightload of sexist and ethnocentric biases -- many old fashioned, if not archaic, even in relation to India.

More on 'ol Bhaktivedanta here.

[forum.culteducation.com]

(Note: Ive studied Lord Krishna's Cuisine, a cookbook written by a disciple who was taught fine cookery by Prabhupada. Its a useful textbook, but the menus and food items unless carefully modified, can put people at high risk of incurring heart disease and diabetes--much too much saturated fat from butter and too much refined carbohydrate from sugar, and from refined grains such as white basmatic rice and white flour.

In fairness to the author she reported she herself had reduced quantities of butter and sugar. But in terms of what has since been learned about carbohydrate metabolism and health risks, even further reductions are called for.

This diet would be a disaster for anyone with hereditary predisposition to coronary heart disease, insulin resistance and especially, Type II diabetes)

No, there is no way the young kids who were Prabhupadas first and trusting followers could know that the man was indoctrinating them into a very culture specific set of dietary biases and emotionally driven prejudices, all tied not to God but to the history and culture of Bengal from the 1890s to the 1950s.

And despite being a monk, Prabhupada was waited on hand and foot. If one reads all the stories Yamuna Devi tells lovingly of her time with the guru, its clear that though his garments were simple, he was waited on like a prince and cooked for like a prince.

Habits disastrously passed on to his successors who went very much further in the luxury department.

End of digression.

Back to Butler.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: May 18, 2012 03:10AM

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Bhaktivedanta's vision was the problem and would cetainly would not be the solution. He created a sexless, misogynistic, militaristic, hierarchical mess.

If he had just stuck to the theology then that would have been fine, he is an expert on the theology. But he added things into the original teachings which were the root cause for all of the problems of ISKCON. It was always dysfunctional and a souless, sexist, socially awkward, unpleasent place to be. I am always surprised when I hear ex members speak of the "original" ISKCON as if it was any different then after Bhaktivedanta left. In both cases Bhaktivedanta did not run the society, others did, he only ran it at the very beginning. Not that it would have mattered too much if he had ran it or not, it would have been more genteel if he did, but still dysfunctinal. The same dysfunctionality was going on then as now, the same abuses of power, the same sexism, the same demand on total celibacy, the same fear and loathing of women being taught, the same insistence on giving up all and any activity which was not directly serving the society or else be asked to leave, the same demand to get up every single morning and be in the temple by 4:30 a.m or be asked to leave etc. It was always a bizarre combination of spirituality and sexless draconian totalitarianism. That's spirituality? Not quite.


So when people speak of the golden age of ISKCON I just shake my head and think "don't they see it's just a romanticized version of what really went down, that they are imagining it to be bteer then it was. They were converts to a new religion and had the fervor of the new convert, that is why they remember that time as being so special, the feeling of discovering something new and exciting, discovering god, but the reality is that it was not better then it is today, it was always a very disturbing place to live."

It was Bhaktivedanta who created the mess, it was his shaping of the dysfunctional social dynamic, it was his shaping of an authoritarian organization, it was his teaching on women being inferior and dangerous, it was his teaching that sex is inherently bad and displeases god, it was his teaching that you cannot do anything other then serve the society with every second of your time, no movies, no travelling, no anything at all accept serve the leaders, he taught that, he created that. He was the one who instilled fear into the minds of his followers that if they left his society which demanded total slavery that they may "rot in the material world for millions of lifetimes", those are his words, that was his message, tell me it isn't.

Sorry Sabino, I know that Bhaktivedanta was a great scholar of the theology, a great theologian, but he was much more then that, and he brought that much moreness and created a new religion, his teachings are a mixture of the real tradition and bunch of craziness. If he would have stuck to the tradition without adding all the negativity, all the fear mongering, all the totalitariansim, the authoritarianism, etc. Then it would have been really a good thing, not just a romanticized false memory of when you were young and exicited and naive.

Now...back to Chris Butler.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: dabcult ()
Date: May 18, 2012 06:05AM

It was Bhaktivedanta who created the mess, it was his shaping of the dysfunctional social dynamic, it was his shaping of an authoritarian organization, it was his teaching on women being inferior and dangerous, it was his teaching that sex is inherently bad and displeases god, it was his teaching that you cannot do anything other then serve the society with every second of your time, no movies, no travelling, no anything at all accept serve the leaders, he taught that, he created that. He was the one who instilled fear into the minds of his followers that if they left his society which demanded total slavery that they may "rot in the material world for millions of lifetimes", those are his words, that was his message, tell me it isn't.

You are 100% right ....but also remember that he nearly went back to INDIA in 1966 because he could not get anyone to join....is new religion
its mostly thanks to a group of homosexuals ...from Alen Ginsberd...to KEITH HAM (Kirtananda ...the founder of NEW VRINDAVAN ...who join with his lover MR WHEALER ..(.HAYEGRIVA) ....a skolar who put Swami Bhaktivedanta ...Bhagavad Gita in proper english ...

Then the mouvement took off beyound his wildest dreams .....George Harrison ...Alfred FORD ...red carpet everywhere he went in India

Swami Bhaktivedanta did not have much of enderstanding ....of the bible .or Bhudhism or even history
When you think that he came in the middle of the civil right mouvement (inspire partly by Gandhi )
and that he call the black race "AN UGLY RACE " in his first book (Srimad Bhagavatam)..that he brought from INDIA .

You wonder how people in 2102 still think he was a perfect flawless human being.
as far as I am concerne his letters of the mid 70 ies where he declare that the HARE KRISHNAs should not be GANDHIAN but defend the temples with force was most damaging ........that is when the guns and machine guns move in and temples as the one in LOS ANGELES became arm to the MAX.

Swami Bhaktivedanta ...is a complex person .....his story and his influence GOOD and BAD is very complex.
And when he died in 1977
when the idea of a supreme perfect guru and guide was pick up by MEGLOMENIACs like Chris Butler ...and others
turn into a very tragic farce
With ex surfer bum.......declaring himself "PARAMAHANSA" Master of the UNIVERS.
Or pedophile KEITH HAM ....with his henchman RADANATH..(MR SLAVIN) ordering murders because it would please KRISHNA.
ITS CRASY ....AND WE CAN ...and we must tell the inocent puplic to beware the "FALSE TEACHERS OF THE WORLD " that simply want to enslave your body and mind .....to get 25% of your paycheck .
YES PRABHUPAD >>IS THE ORIGIN OF PRABHUFRAUD ......and guilty of a lot of terrible THEOLOGICAL mistakes
and again he accepted millions of dollars over 10 years that was ......more than rumor to come from drug dealing

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 18, 2012 07:52AM

Quote
dabcult
What did happen to BRUCE ......is he still part of the cult ?

and what about KURT that was so estrange from his faher and at time so insulting to his father ......what happen to him and his relation with the cult ?

and the sister ?

Questioning Any of them could make a gtreat video ....?

IF I was to return to Hawaii soon ...would any of the participants of this forum(or someone they know that was in the cult and witness stuff around CHRIS BUTLER willing to tell their story for a YOUTUBE VIDEO ?(maybee with special video edhiting to blure the faces )

Bruce loves his brother Chris. In the 70's he would go to kirtans and the free feasts sometimes to get a good meal and meet hippie chicks. The food was healthier than in ISKCON temples using organic friuts and vegetables, whole grains, and honey. No white flour, rice, or sugar! Butler's follwers did gain a superiority complex over this...

Bruce agonized over his brother's status. Fo many years he openly thought it was bullshit. When people would fawn over him because his brother was a "pure devotee", he would say, "He's just my brother, man." He was sarcastic and openly antagonistic to Buter's followers. You could sometimes see him at the local McDonald's by Down to Earth in Honolulu. He was an extremely intelligent and quick witted guy with a bitter tongue. He'd come arm and arm with a new chick to kirtans. He never disrupted Butler's lectures but I think he liked to stick it to him the fact that he did drugs and had sex. He didn't seem to have a job, dressed like surf bum, and lived on his father's land in the North Shore. At some point he just started to chant and became a serious follower of his brother. I am sure he maintains his independence, but took a wife and named all his kids Krishna names. Willis died a few years ago. Butler's sister lives on the mainland.

A lot of the exers on this forum do not live in Hawaii. They are scattered around the world.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: May 18, 2012 10:23AM

Yes it is true that both ACB and Butler took an ancient religion and skewed it to no end, all in the name of getting what they wanted.
One was definitely worse than the other, Butler wins the prize for biggest idiot of the Universe.
Just listen to one of his tapes and you can hear the ignorance.
As for the ex-ers, you better believe we all left HI and got as far away as possible. The cult people make us ill.
It was a pestilence we escaped from.

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KURT BUTLER
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 19, 2012 12:23AM

A bit of info on Kurt Butler.
PRABHUFRAUD'S BROTHER

This is interesting. He fails to mention that his "King of the Frauds" brother is behind Down to Earth. Well brothers can have blind spots I suppose...
Kurt Butler rants about supplements and Down to Earth !

"A few years ago during the dengue fever scare Down to Earth did a big promotion claiming they had a preventive regimen involving an assortment of supplements and herbal drugs. It was an exploitative scam and I exposed it to the public with informational flyers. One late afternoon they held a seminar in their upstairs dining area. Their posters announced that an acupuncturist would talk about preventing dengue, and their flyers listed a couple dozen bogus nostrums that would allegedly help. At first I stood outside and handed out my critical flyers that pointed out that the enormous doses of vitamins (especially vitamin A) in their formula would make people sicker than the disease would. A few minutes before the start of the talk I went into the store, went upstairs where about 30 people had gathered, passed out my flyers and started speaking to the crowd. Keep in mind that when I protested Alive and Well I stood on a public sidewalk and complied with county laws in exercising my First Amendment rights. The Joneses and their employees nevertheless repeatedly subjected me to terroristic threats, theft of my flyers, assaults and several attempts in court to gag me (they all failed). Ironically and rather incredibly, they whined to one judge about their poor health and how my protests aggravate their health problems. The Down to Earth people, on the other hand, were courteous and never tried to stop me from distributing flyers, even inside the store. And they didn't try to shut me up as I spoke to their customers for a full five minutes. They never assaulted me, threatened me, called the cops or sued me. They were civilized and respectful, and I respect them for that. If I had tried this at Alive and Well, I probably would have been killed.

Though their food is terrific, especially the affordable bulk items and the local produce, I still strongly object to some of the products sold at Down to Earth."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2012 12:41AM by Vera City.

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