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Christa
This Ultimate Coach guy -- did anyone else notice he obtained a degree from the University of Santa Monica in 2001?

Isn't that John-Roger's place? MSIA?

Seems to be. Wiki says John-Roger "is the founder and chancellor of the University of Santa Monica (USM), an unaccredited institution offering master's degrees in Spiritual Psychology and Consciousness, Health & Healing and a doctoral degree in Spiritual Psychology."

Yet another interesting tidbit: just yesterday Byron Katie's blog featured what is essentially a lengthy promo for the school:

The School for The Work: An Account By Richard Lawrence Cohen

Richard Lawrence Cohen is said to be a novelist. Could it be that his BK school review is also a work of fiction?!

Stranger things have happened in these waters...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2009 08:35AM by helpme2times.

Kassy:

Some of your posts have not been approved because they are either little more than rants or personal attacks.

Please stay focused on topic, which is Byron Katie.

Frankly, you seem to be little more than an apologist or an "Internet Troll," and are getting close to being banned.

Kassy wrote:

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Another reason that I'm not interested in large group things such as the so called, "LGATS" (which I've just heard of from you guys)-lol is I was deeply involved in the punk/anarchist subculture I'm not a big fan of mob mentality or large groups or authority.

Being in the punk scene is no insurance against getting into an LGAT.

Isnt one of BK's kids a punk musician?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2009 10:46AM by corboy.

Actually, he seems a producer rather than a musician. But still...

Here is some information.

And, everything on this page, starting at the top is a good Golden Oldies selection.

A lot of fine stuff is buried in this thread and we shouldnt let the troll static distract from it.

Let's toss this puppy onto the turntable.....

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Meadow
btw I heard that BK once told the crowd at one of her schools that she herself charges $ 1700 for a private session...

That is sad, as some folks would get over-excited, and borrow money, and pay thousands to try to get some "private time" with the Guru, and that will only lure them in deeper, and even get them lured into the Turnaround House, and even higher priced rip-offs they don't need.
Its sad what goes on with these groups. Not all the people getting scammed come from wealthy families with family money to burn, many of them literally re-mortgage the house to get their hands on 50-150K. Its brutal when one sees it happen over and over. Those on the inside, they see it happening, and not all of them think its amusing. Eventually their conscience might click in for some of them.

She even charges more than her friend Steve Hardison, who is only a mere $1,500 an hr, with $150,000 paid in advance, with no refunds.
[forum.culteducation.com]

by the way, EVERY LEGIT person who works in any field of one-to-one consulting, like career consulting, says the #1 rule is to NEVER SIGN A "COACHING CONTRACT".
And NEVER PAY IN ADVANCE.
EVER.

That is simply a scam. You pay a market rate, which for a top person might be the same as a psychologist, which can be up to around $150 an hr, which is generally covered by insurance.
You pay at the end of EACH SESSION.
You do NOT pay in advance.
You do NOT sign a contract.
That is simply a rip-off, as if the "coach" is horrible, then you are scammed, screwed, and tatooed.

Some of the other folks that have been criticized in this thread, are BOY SCOUTS compared to these new names. This is a completely different level, less elegant, far far more ruthless and ugly.
More research needs to be done.

"""Carrying the burden of 'saving the world' or 'evolving to a higher plane to help all beings' has to be the epitome of utterly impossible unreachable goals. Which is helpful for the cult leader as it gives him endless leeway to keep moving the goal posts. The initiate will never be good enough and the cult leader has a follower forever--or at least until the poor initiate cracks up under the strain of trying to reach an impossible goal.

I think shame is the most corrosive possible feeling. But there is no shame in realising that 'saving the world' is beyond my capabilities or that we are all muddling along here by trial and error and that anyone claiming to be on a higher plane is conning at least themselves."""

In the teachings that have inspired me, the true guru, a sat-guru is the Self, and tells you to look within, and that the events in the world are pre-determined as if a script. Looking within does not mean looking within physically, it means non-objective consciousness. It means not conceiving of oneself as a subject, an individual, living in a world of objects. A non-differentiated state.

"Unless a person firmly adheres to the dictum ‘That which deserves to be reformed is my own mind,’ by turning Selfwards and correcting himself, his mind will get defiled more and more by paying attention exclusively to the defects of others."

Stoic,
There are more quotes like that but essentially the idea is that a guru removes the burdens of the obligations devotees think they have, because the world is unreal, it's not evolving. I've noticed that some like Andrew Cohen and through hearsay supposedly Ekhart Tolle advance that view about evolving humanity. That never appealed to me, because it's not evolving. Biologically life evolves, molecular biomolecules evolve, but humanity is not evolving toward something higher clearly. And since it's not evolving, who is there to be responsible for it? So any guru that tells people they have to save the world, B.S.

However, many sages have advocated doing selfless action but not with some expectation, agenda in mind, or egotism that I (a superior person) is helping out someone who needs my help.

What I appreciated about some of the advaita gurus that i was inspired by was that all conceptualization of the world, all objectification of the world was viewed as fundamentally flawed. That already was my own experience. Not to get too deep into the Byron Katie controversy on this, but I was impressed that she was closer to what resonated with me. She doesn't talk about a world, or worldly responsibilities, but questioning thoughts. Her focus is totally on one's own consciousness. Her line of questioning is very close to the sword of discrimination in Advaita, where the reality of world and self are deeply examined.

In neurophysiology, it's been noticed that the action happens, the thought "I did it" happens after. So technically, no one is doing anything even from a neurophysiology standpoint. This is a central tenet of Advaita, of the Upanishads, and Bhagavad Gita. That there are no individuals doing anything which is completely in accord with a modern scientific understanding. Byron Katie describes this to a T, that her self completely vanished, when she is talking to someone, there is no differentation from her point of view between self and other. She, like many advaita gurus describe that the actions go on as if by themselves without the notion of being a doer.

Looking at what "Kassy" has tried to do here, is quite interesting, even in its outrageousness.

First off, this person says they just read a book by Byron Katie, and isn't part of the BK system.
Do they really believe people are that stupid? They are not.

Then, all of a sudden, this person appears to know everything about everything about Byron Katie, without even having read the details in this thread?
Kassy claims not to know what an LGAT is, says she hasn't attended the Byron Katie LGAT, yet knows that its not an damaging LGAT. Its beyond laughable.


Kassy tries to hold up the Advaita fig-leaf, and Ramana Maharshi, which has also been debunked in this thread. (by the way, those are Stephen Mitchell's roots...wink wink. He was pushing that stuff years ago, and that has all been debunked at length.)
That is just a big smoke-screen, to distract people from what is really going on, which is the business and moneymaking.

As far as saying that Kassy is likely a BK plant, first off, that is obvious.
But second, as stated, when it comes to these groups, you NEVER have full information, and one has to make a judgement call as best as one can, based on incomplete information, in limited time. Otherwise you are going to get SCAMMED.
The approach by Kassy would not last 5 minutes for anyone with training, but its being examined just to have a look at the methods and contradictions, and tactics being used.


Kassy then tries to distort the SPECIFIC TECHNIQUES being explained, by trying the tactic that has been tried over and over, to use MISDIRECTION. By saying its some type of "MAGIC" and trying to distort what is being said. When the FACTS are the opposite. There is no magic or witchcraft. Its specific techniques being used by Byron Katie at her seminars. So again, its a deliberate conscious misdirection. Misdirection is a lie. Its a deliberate lie, to misdirect away from the careful techniques.

Its not just ignorance of how it all works. As those who are clueless, are often curious about it, and do some research. Its an attempt at misdirection.
Same with the "Zombie" and "slave" references. That is a deliberate con, a Straw-Man method, to exaggerate, and then refute their own lie. That was never said.

Its about INFLUENCE, engineering consent.
That has all been explained many times. Persuasion Engineering.

Then he/she gets into Distraction, going on about Barack Obama..anything to shift the focus off the subject.
Then moving in the "Hitler" and Auschwitz nonsense, which also seems to be a favorite subject of Byron Katie. [forum.culteducation.com] Again, a deliberate technique, to move away from the FACTS and into ridiculous hyperbole, and also trying do do a Turnaround, just to shift the focus off Byron Katie.
Notice there is never a word about holding Byron Katie accountable.

He/she then says..."Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Which is a clever Turnaround, again. Carl Sagan said that. And where is the EVIDENCE for Byron Katie's outrageous claims? There is ZERO.

Then moving into a defense of the "legality" of the group and a defense of the company and those who work there.
This from someone who read a book on Byron Katie? Now they know everything about BK and the BKI company?
As if.

Of course, in an anonymous forum, one can't know who a person really is, whether they are a fanatical true believer, or a salesperson, or a senior in the BK org.
"Kassy" could easily be a senior salesperson in the BK org, or a BK coach, probably a writer, someone who has literate references, someone who speaks in the same patterns used here before, and at the Guruphiliac forum. Same pattern, claiming to have not attended a BK seminar, and just read a book, but then knowing EVERYTHING about BKI.

That is simply not credible to people who know how to think. Its obviously not true.

This is a person who is able and enjoys twisting everything inside out, and enjoys getting their hands dirty dealing with the BKI clients.
Who is it? One can only speculate in an anonymous format, but there is a certain male writer who is quite close to the Queen Bee herself, who does lots of email confusion propaganda, which he seems to enjoy doing.

On the other hand, there is another "Kassy" with links to Byron Katie, NLP, Coaching, seminars, writing, trauma, and many other related subjects. (but of course, that could just be a coincidence)

Search Google for...

"Byron Katie" Kassy


But it just goes on and on and on. Constant misdirection from the facts of the techniques being used by Byron Katie, which are PERMISSIVE, which makes them more powerful, as explained in great detail.


But it is educational.
That is the type of response anyone who is involved in The Work is going to get, if they go to the professional BK "facilitator" or people from BKI with questions. They are just going to try to screw your mind into so many circles, you won't be able to point to the moon in the sky.
They have professional "fixers", like every LGAT, people who sit on the phone all day, and try to talk people into attending the LGAT seminars, and coachings. They also try to talk people out of NOT attending seminars, and they will work many many HOURS on people, to keep the sale. A lot of money is at stake.
Even now, they do it in email, constant mind-screwing, to try and scramble up people's thinking processes.

So the WARNING is out there. There are extreme BK fanatics, who are ideologically indocrinated, and also financially motivated, to try to twist people's minds into such a mess, they can't think clearly anymore.
Just trying to create confusion.
They also enjoy the POWER of doing this to people, it must be a big high for them, makes them feel powerful.


But its NOT THAT COMPLEX.
Its explained in these threads, they create confusion, and then use dozens of persuasion tactics, to get people to attend the seminars, and get more indocrinated, and spend as much money as possible.
And they go hysterical when the specific techniques are explained, as that makes them not work.
So they flip-out.
Try it sometime on a professional persuader, point out their techniques.
First they flip-out with rage and even hysteria.
Then they just DENY everything, and try to deflect, and distract. Then they start with the lies. Lies, lies, lies, and more lies.

That is all they can do.
and as far as Byron Katie, they are checkmated into a double-bind. They have to use conscious MISDIRECTION, and say she doesn't do ANYTHING at all to people, and uses no persuasion techniques.
But even a 12 year old kid can see her techniques at work with a little effort, even just the SALES techniques to start, and the use of metaphors and storytelling.

So they are busted red-handed. But they are caught in a double-bind.
They cannot admit shes uses the obvious techniques she uses, so they have to try to misdirect people. But their misdirection is so obvious, its obvious to all they are consciously lying about it.
They are screwed.

But that is why they go so hysterical. The jig is up.
Once the client sees the techniques, they don't work anymore.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2009 03:27PM by The Anticult.

also, after doing a little more checking...which WON'T be posted in the thread...it is also possible a person who is posting, can have certain issues they are trying to deal with, which may drive them to behave in a certain manner which is confusing and contradictory to others, and even to themselves.

So its probably best just to leave it at that, and drop it permanently.


These can be complex and difficult issues, so its best to keep it on-topic, and as specific as possible.
...on an impersonal note...and specifically concerning LGAT's...
Probably the larger impersonal point to make, is that it is very difficult, even impossible, to try and know everything about a certain person involved with these LGAT's, before making a judgement call.
When one is faced with someone who is a direct employee of an LGAT company, you are never going to get full information from them.
Only a very small part of the information.

Online, its much worse, as one doesn't know if someone running a blog, for example, is being truthful or not.

So how can one proceed? One has to do the best research one can, in the time available, and then make the best judgement call one can make.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2009 04:11PM by The Anticult.

'I will think if it's funny if anticult siezes upon this to go, "yeah, see, I told you kassy lacks empathy". That seems to be the way with some round these parts is siezing on anything they can use against you rather then having an intelligent discussion, it's interesting. '

Kassy,
I have prefaced my comments here several times with the statement that nothing that I post should be construed as casting aspersions on anyone here.

I make a distiction between information, which should have some basis in reality, and innuendo which is a form of malicious gossip intended to tarnish the person gossiped about.

I knew when I first posted here that I would face the same charge as you of being an apologist for BK--I have read the entirety of the thread and expected the same treatment. But my own experience tells me that the subject of cult-type indoctrination is a serious one and should not be left solely to those who cannot distinguish between what is possibly true and what is simply character assasination and innuendo.
The wording of my comment about mirror neurons I think reflected the theoretical basis of any conclusions so far drawn by the neuroscientists researching this and no innuendo was intended on my part.

My personal view is that BK is indeed using the coercive techniques now common in LGATs. I have never attended one of her events, nor would I. A few years ago I had serious doubts about these coercive techniques in LGATs, I could see with Tony Robbins that he elicited a powerful emotional response but that did not seem to last much past the end of the seminar.
My workplace then arranged a series of these events at which attendance was mandatory. My background makes me wary of any mandatory command so I began to look into this LGAT business.

The general format was a fun beginning, we were shown a film intended to elicit a sentimental 'AHHH' response, then the trainer? began to throw rubber ducks at the audience, making it into an infantile game. There was a lot of personal information elicited that had no bearing on the jobs the audience were employed for but which could be used to profile individuals for subtle pressuring at a later date. I was appalled at how easily private and possibly damaging (in the wrong hands) information was volunteered, but then I am, because of my background, a very wary, untrusting person.
There was a quite crude attempt at distortion of perception which I spotted and called. It was immediately stopped and the event was wound up early. The series of events continued but without the outside trainer and with a radically different format--they were also no longer mandatory.

I then went to a few outside LGATs, purely sales as I thought I could cope with being sold some rubbish without my head getting too messed up. I was astonished at the efficacy of the process. At the first one the trainer was from Vegas and superbly effective. I was just there to watch but bought a box of worthless rubbish for $1000 in a zombie-like state, as did most of the room. I later came to my senses and got a refund but could see how the whole environment was engineered (as all casino environments are) to produce an open, receptive, compliant response in the crowd.

I attended a few others in the interests of research. The quality varies enormously and the hypnotic techniques are often laughably apparent but some of these guys are impossible to spot. There is big money in this so its worth the effort to refine the techniques. There is an English guy, Derren Brown, who has videos on youtube who demonstrates how clever these techniques have become.

Having watched some BK videos I agree with the consensus here that she is an adept at inducing cognitive dissonance in her listeners by using language patterns. The slightly loopy sentence construction is deliberate and calculated. It forces the listener to try to work out what she is saying which produces a brief period of dissociation, a state where suggestions are more readily accepted. It doesn't work on everyone but the whole process is a giant filter to catch those it does work on.

Dissociation is what happens when people lose control of their minds. Prolonged dissociation is psychosis. Some people (me, for instance)-- are far more vulnerable to dissociation than others. In my case I learned to dissociate naturally as a child having 'out of body' and other experiences as an escape from the constant violence and abuse I was living with.

My life-long interest in meditation (a form of controlled dissociation) is not a religious impulse but began as an attempt to understand, to the best of my ability, these dissociated states of mind. I have been a zen student for several decades, the techniques of zen are a similar form of thought reform but one to which the student submits voluntarily and in the knowledge that the techniques will be used ( by the student himself) to examine and refine the thinking process. I have found them beneficial in this context and am not a yet a zen zombie or even a buddhist for that matter. I have used this study and the example of my teachers to become an adult as I rejected my family example in its entirety and needed a decent replacement.

This should not be read as an innuendo denigrating anyone suffering dissociation-type episodes, meditators Buddhists or anyone else. I am far too long in the tooth to condemn anyone for their particular belief systems, even devotees of BK. I do not think you should condemn anyone who is unwittingly drawn into accepting this very nasty mind manipulation as we are all vulnerable and need to be excessively wary.

Anticult is wrong to say that knowledge alone of these techniques will protect anyone. These techniques play on the very human desires for certainty in an uncertain world and none of us are, by nature of being human, ever immune to those desires. It is the wariness and suspicion keeping you away from people practising this stuff that is protective as it is not possible to keep up your guard forever.

This is not an attempt to sway you, I have long since quit trying to change anybody's mind except my own, it is just what I have experienced of the LGAT techniques which are shady, underhand and risk triggering mental instability for some participants.