Disclaimer: this is not Cult 101. If you've left a cult in the last few years, or are still trying to figure out whether what you experienced was coercive control, this post probably won't help. If you're still in a closed group and trying to discredit an ex-member, you're also not going to understand this properly. If you've been out for years or decades and are still in
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

This is very true. I've been through this exact same thing and it left me in a tough bind. How do I have self-compassion for my own prior problems as an abuse survivor (eating disorders, self-harm, addiction, unstable relationships) whilst also feeling appropriate anger towards abusers who were struggling equally with trauma? If their actions were worthy of contempt, aren't I also? And
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

I think that one of the greatest mistakes that most of us make after leaving abusive situations is taking on this idea that we are either "victim," "survivor" or "thriver," as if these are three distinct stages that we must all go through on the way to recovery. I don't think surviving abuse is that linear. Some days I am extremely happy, feeling calm and confid
Forum: Abusive and Controlling Relationships

Hi, I've been reading one of Lundy Bancroft's books lately too. I think it is useful to help put abusive relationships into contexts. The book I was reading seemed rather awkwardly gendered but it's very useful to think of control tactics and the way that some of them can relate to social roles. I don't think being abused is a weakness at all. I was in abusive situations c
Forum: Abusive and Controlling Relationships

This is really interesting! I've never heard of several of these. But still my entire upbringing was based around these ideas. Two more that we had in my group were "higher forces" and "lower forces." These ideas were related to folk animism and based on the idea that ordinary objects had some influence on us. For example, say you are tired after a long day and you come h
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

Ex-members are often shocked by discovering how similar cultic groups are to one another, even when the belief systems are very different. But in reality, it's quite simple: we aren't harmed by the belief system, we are harmed by systems of control (although, of course, specific beliefs can be traumatic too). Many destructive groups have a positive reason for existence, such as claiming
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

I've experienced this a great deal. Since I broadly agreed with the beliefs of my group I didn't understand how much it hurt to have my decisions taken away from me. Especially since there was always some justification about why my own choices were either influenced by demons or perpetuating all the world's harm. Even after years of recovery it's hard to give myself permission
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

8 -- "It's their purification" Probably related to 3 in your list, but in my group we were told that we had to "purify" our ancestors going back 7 generations. I have no idea who 7 generations of my ancestors even are, but there was always some imaginary great-great-great-great-great aunt who had got herself into some weird situation in her life and was somehow speakin
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

I love this list. 7 -- "They are a racist sexist homophobe bigot." I saw this one recently from a current member of my old group. This guy had convinced himself that our group was so pure, that anyone calling it a cult was using an offensive slur as bad as racial or homophobic ones. Followed by a long list of "do we do all these culty things? Sure, but..." (I find
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

corboy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The real test of a relationship is whether you are > respected *after* you have become trustful and > emotionally involved. This is so true. In my experience there are several different versions of destructive humour. There's the kind where someone thinks their perspective on life is so hilarious that
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

I haven't checked this site in a very long time so I apologise for how long it's taken me to reply. I left Subud almost 14 years ago, and there are still ways which that experience has caused me long-term damage. Subud members passionately deny it's a cult. It's taken me such a long time to understand the exhausting mindset of members. They'll say things like, &qu
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

It's been close to nine years since I left my group. Since I last posted a year ago I have been more active in cult research. Have written and presented papers on spiritual abuse and what it's like to grow up in a cult. Am considering retraining as a psychologist, because there are too few studies out there. I have less energy than I used to; at 31 I feel old. Drained, even. It'
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

A lot of useful resources in there, C. I am interested in the idea of the cultic milieu and the social commute. Both resonate with me a lot. I see these dynamics all of the time, and not just in cults. A lot of patriarchal workplaces exhibit similar group dynamics. It is not as extreme, because individuals still have an identity, and a social life. But those businesses tend to selectively
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

I'm sorry that you've been through this. In my experience, most of the people who accuse one person of something are usually suffering from that thing themselves. I too have been through some extremely frustrating situations like this. In the first six months after I left my group, I was virtually unable to function. Thankfully I didn't even have a psychiatric assessment in tha
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

It's been a long time since I was active on these boards. I left my group nearly eight years ago now. I'm doing okay. Disappointed to see a lack of open dialogue on both sides of the cult discussion. Frustrated by the long-term challenges I continue to face. I feel deeply frustrated by it all at times. I want to do more to educate people about the psychology of destructive groups. I
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

I've reached the end of what I can achieve on here and I thought I should make some closing comments. I'm not going to apologise for anything I've written in the last three years nor attempt to undermine my own process by standing up and recanting it. But I would like anyone reading to remember that when I started this thread, I was 22 and pretty angry confused and hurt. I'
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Oh, and I'd like to point out that I'm okay. Really, I am. It's just a process I'm going through. I'm not reliving the experiences, I'm relieving them. I feel a million times better. It's very hard to explain...
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Thanks, both of you. Tootie, you're absolutely right. I am here, inside my life. I know how I ended up here, I know where the front door is, and after three years of searching through boxes I just found the key. After all this time I can walk away, or I can throw the key back in the boxes and start digging all over again. It's not like I don't know which path to take. Linco
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Heavy shit indeed. Well I've reached a point where I can look in the mirror and say, "No, it isn't Subud," or at least, "it isn't completely Subud." I really want to keep blaming them though, you know? Like that would be so much easier. But the organisation as a whole can only take so much responsibility for what its individual members say, do and believe.
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

It's beginning to dawn on me that I really want Subud to be the enemy. I want the things I went through to be endemic and systematic, the abuses to be integral to the whole culture. I don't want to be an 'extreme case.' I don't want to be the only one. But I think I am - its my mum and dad whose actions I can't understand and it's going to destroy me if I don�
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

QuoteAre you angry that Pak Subuh presented himself as bringing a gift from Heaven? Andrew, I'm angry at ANYONE who claims this or anything remotely like it. Including the members themselves who claim to receive it. I'm angry at ANY cult, EVERY religion, I'm angry at the whole world. Do you want to know why? Really? This is not a Subud issue, but it comes down to this: Most p
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Okaaaaaaay. Everyone: deep breaths, please. Andrew, my experiences with testing are by no means the highlight of my anger with Subud. It is very different when you are born in Subud to when you join it as an adult, I know that you may question how exactly this is different, but regardless of whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Subudian or Atheist, I hope we can all agree that developmental p
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Pacifica, haha that site was hilarious!! Hi Andrew, A couple of thoughts: QuoteYou are probably right, as soon as your own story or anyone else's come up, I am sure that people will offer other versions or object that your view is too one-sided. All we can do is let people offer their alternative view, but it has to be respectful. It is quite common in Subud for helpers, when
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

QuoteAndrew HallTo be fair, not everyone's experience is like yours, I think your experience is the extreme example. But the way that as a group, as an organization, as a culture, that Subud has no way of admitting mistakes and discourages debate and using the mind, is disfunctional. I'm not so sure the experience IS an extreme example. My experience has been almost identical. The on
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Just in case the above came across too harshly, I wanted to tell a story which I witnessed in my early Subud days. There was a woman, newly opened, who began to have some concerns about Subud. She wrote articles in some publications labelling Subud as a 'Muslim cult.' She was vocal on her opinions and it wasn't long before she was brought to the attention of the regional and na
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

Hi Andrew, Well, I felt the same as you before things got really bad and I felt that I had to absolutely leave Subud. In no instance had it ever seriously occurred to me that Subud was a cult until I left and the widespread similarities between Subud behaviours and standard cult behaviours became apparent. I had help from a number of organisations who specifically deal with cult survivors. Su
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families

A quick note on crises (and the ex-Subud members will have to forgive me for going into what will be an all-too-familiar 'Bapak said' mode): Bapak identified three types of spiritual crisis: one, where the member is basically a complete mess; two, where someone appears to be quite normal; three, where the person behaves like some kind of spiritual guru and offers a lot of advice
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

One question I might ask of any ex-Subud members is about names. Did any of you change your name in Subud and, if so, did you change it back when you left? I was born in Subud so my first name was given to me by Bapak, but I changed it when I was 18 to a name given by Ibu Rahayu. When I left Subud I was really confused over this and adopted a casual name which I made up myself, but this wasn'
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

I appreciate this is quite an old topic but it is one that I've been thinking about more and more. In my case, I feel extremely uncomfortable being in a group of people, even if it's just sitting together for lunch, but at the same time I don't like trying to 'single someone out' who seems more like me. It seems just as wrong to latch on to someone and try and become frie
Forum: Recovery from Destructive Cults and Groups

Hi Lincoln, I would be most interested in hearing about what life has been like since you left. 13 years is a long time. What sorts of things have helped you? How did you get over the thought-pollution that Subud lies inevitably leave behind?
Forum: Former Cult Members and Affected Families