QuoteCliveHi Guys, ThePetitor - you wrote recently "As Mister Black often used to quote, “All that is required for evil to abound is for good men to do nothing.” which I had been thinking of posting here just before reading your quote. One of the things that I find interesting is that I do quote Mister Black from time to time. Chris19 says that looking back form a distance he or she
Forum: Destructive Churches

Wistongirl, I too remember the little one that died so young, so we might also have known each other. It was a traumatic time for all, and there are some details there that even I (well known for wanting everything out in the open) will not make public. I am sorry you are not feeling so rosey – we are all human beings and are all affected by things at all sorts of emotional levels. I know I
Forum: Destructive Churches

Quotecbarb I would love to see a response to the letter you posted, the Petitor, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable request for someone to make given the previous friendship. It's a bit unchristian to not even acknowledge the letter even if the meeting were out of the question, for whatever reason. This so-called anointing that the privileged few have seems to me to be the last
Forum: Destructive Churches

Just catching up with posts and love some of the comments. Leaders discerning sin left right and centre but not noticing half bottles of whisky in the meetings – wonderful! There have been other related examples, with leaders apparently not being aware of members involved in relationships or even of a girl getting pregnant. Yet they “discern” things that are not true – that someone is a lesb
Forum: Destructive Churches

QuoteIfellawaySorry E.Ray, I meant to say, don't remember grace really, but, truthfully I do recall Jennifer as approachable and patient. I actually don't remember being on the receiving end of her discernment. ... Which actually makes it harder to hear how some have been ignored by her. I originally came here to defend the outrageous claims against my childhood curch leaders. The
Forum: Destructive Churches

Cbarb, Like others, I found much of your rule book amusing. I have to say I do find simple things like the wearing of hats quite significant. Is it right or isn’t it, and why was it a rule if it is no longer required? In most organisations, it wouldn’t matter but, given the uniformity of behaviour required in Struthers, people need to know these things. I am afraid I cannot add much to y
Forum: Destructive Churches

E.Ray, welcome to the forum! It is always good to get more insight and views, and you certainly seem to have some very direct experience of the things many others have reported. These things are not unique to Cumbernauld either. There are many other stories of people leaving and a whole pack of lies being told about them. Truth will out however, as has been demonstrated by E.Ray's conf
Forum: Destructive Churches

I would like to go back a few pages to say, Ifellaway, when Archbishop Laud said “seriously?” I think he or she meant, “Do you seriously want me to believe that is abuse” rather than “do you seriously want me to believe that happens”. So I don’t actually think he or she was calling you a liar. That seems consistent with Archbishop Laud’s overall message, which is that these things do happen, bu
Forum: Destructive Churches

I love this forum! Isn’t it great that we can agree, disagree, explore ideas, change our mind and apologise, and we can also be gracious even when talking about a situation that causes such serious concern. It would be so easy to take the Struthers approach that “we are 100% right and every single thing everybody else does is evil” but, instead of that, we get comments that say individuals ar
Forum: Destructive Churches

Hi Ifellaway, I 100% agree that the most important thing is that individual people learn the truth and can make their own informed decision. I know how much this forum helped me, and, having read your own comments and those of others, there is no doubt that many many people have benefited from knowing they are not the ones at fault. This forum and the Latigo site have now been around for
Forum: Destructive Churches

Thanks Rensil Yes, the arrogant belief that their own spiritual insight is more important than everything else, including scripture, is mind-boggling. Jesus was the one who spoke to people His disciples turned away! In Struthers it is the opposite - most of the congregation would speak to the contributors to this forum (unless ordered not to!) but the leaders would not. That shows just how f
Forum: Destructive Churches

Some interesting thoughts and developments here recently. For example, Quotecbarb Just to let you all know I had some correspondence from the OSCR regarding complaints and they seem to be focusing on investigating concerns around public benefit and the way in which paid positions are handed out. and QuoteChesterk55 So all we can do is hang on happy that, possibly for the first time e
Forum: Destructive Churches

It seems to me that Rensil's point about the information that is given to people is the most important one. Or, as CovLass says, "One of the things I like about the Latigo site is that they often ask the question,Is this what the leadership team at Struthers believe? If so, why not come right out and say it? If the leaders at Struthers believe that it is 'the will of God' to
Forum: Destructive Churches

squareone certainly not annoying - I think the whole point is to get clarity. Yes, as far as I know, the church could have paid for the iPads and the parents could now be paying them back. That doesn't change the fact that the members of the congregation are subsidising the school however. If the parents are not paying back the cost of the iPads, then the equation is: 1) School e
Forum: Destructive Churches

A little more info in case anyone is interested in seeing the actual published accounts. As cbarb says, SMC is obliged to provide a copy to anyone who asks in writing. I am not sure whether they are able to (or will chose to) charge, but you do have to write to them. If you want to obtain a copy without contacting the church, you can download the accounts form the companies house website for
Forum: Destructive Churches

squareone I do not know what parents are charged. For all I know, the cost of the iPads may be added to invoices. What we do know from the church’s own accounts is that the members of the congregation subsidise the school however. The amount of money the congregation gives to the school would be enough to cover the iPads or a number of salaries. I seem to remember the amount in 2009 was £1
Forum: Destructive Churches

By the way, if anyone is interested in reading the "witness statements" from posters here, have a look at the thread on The Refuge in Wendover, Aylesbury, as SeekingSusan created a useful summary of these testimonies there.
Forum: Destructive Churches

I have been thinking about the whole idea of judging others and want to add one other point, which has been made before, and that is that most of the people on this forum are witnesses - they are not the prosecution or the defence. If you read through the posts, you will see that a great many say “this happened to me”, “the impact this had on me was” or “what I saw or heard was”. These are n
Forum: Destructive Churches

QuoteCovLassHi growing123 I was the one who was judged. I was the one accused ... Exactly. That is precisely the problem, and I think you sum it up beautifully in your final paragraph. Supporters of Struthers want us to focus exclusively on our real or imagined faults. Many of us have tried to do that and it doesn't work. The leaders themselves don't do that, they focus
Forum: Destructive Churches

Hi Ifellaway and growing123 and welcome to the forum (oops, and corboy – just seen your post too). It is really great that you felt able to contribute. Ifell way, while my story is different, I do see many parallels and certainly relate to points you make. For example, “my belief system failed me”. Yup, I can definitely relate to that. One of the problems with Struthers is that you are
Forum: Destructive Churches

Hi All, just catching up on the discussions here. First, welcome to MagicCarrot and mikewilson – I don’t think I have posted since you have joined the site. The point about computers vs iPads (vs not using technology) is interesting but, as others have pointed out, it is not really the use of any particular type of technology that is the issue. I personally think iPads are a great idea b
Forum: Destructive Churches

On another matter, I am currently reading an interesting book by Daniel Kahneman, winner of the Nobel Prize for his work on judgement and decision-making. I was particularly struck by the observation on page 84 of his book “Thinking, Fast and Slow”. QuoteDaniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize WinnerTo derive the most useful information form multiple sources of evidence, you should always try to make
Forum: Destructive Churches

I think the debate about what might and might not be effective is interesting but that is not the core issue. What if people have been too critical, or have even reacted in anger? Sure, it is quite legitimate to advise on these things and to try to make contributions as helpful as possible, but I want to make my position quite clear, which is that there is no excuse for the behaviour of the SM
Forum: Destructive Churches

Dear all, I am happy to confirm that I have no reason to suspect people in SMC of any sexual abuse - any reference to abuse is much more general - abuse of power and "spiritual abuse" which I could not define with any great authority, but is something to do with using a position of perceived spiritual power and authority to act in ways that would not be acceptable if that perceived p
Forum: Destructive Churches

Kelvin QuoteKelvin"This is all just nonsense". Okay, that's a pretty clear view. No need to worry about putting together a reasonable response then! ; Well, I am happy to admit I can might carried away, and phrases like the above are conveying some of the frustration I feel rather than a logical argument. Fair point, and I apologise. I am not sure that negates the need for
Forum: Destructive Churches

Lintar123 Well said! thanks for bringing this discussion back to what it is really about – the pain and hurt causes by SMC. We can have all the esoteric arguments about democracy, but the point is people have been hurt, and the leadership of the organization at the centre of all the concerns couldn’t care less. @Kelvin – there are a number of points I would like to comment upon. You say:
Forum: Destructive Churches

Kelvin It is good to have some honest debate! I think there is a world of difference between your earlier statement: QuoteKelvinbecause of personal grudges… which is what is happening here and your more recent, QuoteKelvinsome of the claims on this forum are due to personal grudges (would you prefer "grievances") but, OK , lets take that as a clarification rather than a cha
Forum: Destructive Churches

Kelvin First, it is great that you took the time to reply to these posts. Thanks for dealing with many of the questions directly and, in general, not allowing it to degenerate into personal comments. I do think you are out of line on one point however, and that is your criticism of Chesterk55 when you say - “I strongly object to you attributing those sentiments to me, with no evidence wh
Forum: Destructive Churches

Wow - some interesting arguments here. Quotekelvin@ThePetitor For example, you claim that SMC is accountable to no-one and yet proceed to also claim it will be relieved of its charitable status by OSCR, to whom it is ... accountable. I was not aware I had claimed anything. I thought I had used the word IF, and it was you that had said WHEN, implying you already knew the outcome. We obvi
Forum: Destructive Churches

Kelvin First, welcome to the forum! It is good to have you on board. I don’t know how others would respond, but I for one would be happy that there was no financial impropriety if this was the outcome confirmed by any independent authority. One of the real issues with Struthers is that it is accountable to no-one, denying even basic human rights like the right to a fair trial. A bit of e
Forum: Destructive Churches