One of the most important and interesting questions that I have is many who want to live an Islamic lifestyle are living in western countries and non-Islamic countries, England and France.

You would think if you want to live a TRUE Islamic lifestyle, you would move to an Islamic country?

I notice many Islamic fundamentalists live in the west, like in England and France, yet they hate western secular lifestyles. There are many Islamic 'teachers' who are banned in their own country, yet rant against the countries that have let them in.

It does not make sense.

If you detest western lifestyles and want to immerse yourself in total Islamic culture...why live in and study in Western or secular countries?

Why not create an Islamic paradise in your own ancestral home country? It would only make sense. Like Yemen, or Morocco or Indonesia.

Is Iraq not an occupied country? Prime Minister Al-Maliki has even said they don't need help from the US anymore and they are free to go. Ask any regular Iraqi citizen and they will tell you that it's an occupied country and they simply want the the American troops to leave.

Although the US itself may not be as oppressive, the US has been oppressive in other countries. The US supported a murderous regime in Indonesia. The entire central and south american countries have been subject to US intervention through nefarious activities by the CIA. How come the US also supports Saudi Arabia which is one of the fundamentalist country you people are despising? How come the CIA overthrew a democratically elected president of Iran to install the Shah, a fundamentalist? Why aren't you calling out the hypocrisy in all this?

JanieBeast, did you ask them WHY they hate Americans? Your entire response is devoid of the most important part in any question and instead you just ramble on how they want to kill americans. No people hate other people for no reason.

A good start is ACTUALLY READING the letter from Osama Bin Laden or even President Ahmajinad's letter to the US.

[observer.guardian.co.uk]

For instance, BP (British Petroleum) is a very powerful multi-national corporation that wields more power then the local governments and actually influence who gets the oil in someone else's country. How would you feel if some other country or corporation dictated what you can do with your own property?

Are you all really aware of all the things that go on over there? It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

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kageki
Is Iraq not an occupied country? Prime Minister Al-Maliki has even said they don't need help from the US anymore and they are free to go. Ask any regular Iraqi citizen and they will tell you that it's an occupied country and they simply want the the American troops to leave.

Although the US itself may not be as oppressive, the US has been oppressive in other countries. The US supported a murderous regime in Indonesia. The entire central and south american countries have been subject to US intervention through nefarious activities by the CIA. How come the US also supports Saudi Arabia which is one of the fundamentalist country you people are despising? How come the CIA overthrew a democratically elected president of Iran to install the Shah, a fundamentalist? Why aren't you calling out the hypocrisy in all this?

JanieBeast, did you ask them WHY they hate Americans? Your entire response is devoid of the most important part in any question and instead you just ramble on how they want to kill americans. No people hate other people for no reason.

A good start is ACTUALLY READING the letter from Osama Bin Laden or even President Ahmajinad's letter to the US.

[observer.guardian.co.uk]

For instance, BP (British Petroleum) is a very powerful multi-national corporation that wields more power then the local governments and actually influence who gets the oil in someone else's country. How would you feel if some other country or corporation dictated what you can do with your own property?

Are you all really aware of all the things that go on over there? It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

Sure it is.
Islamic fascist death cultists murder innocent people, mostly other Muslims, at random - anywhere; any time, in the name of their imaginary Death god.
If you condemn the Islamic fascists, no matter what bizarre reasoning (such as the things you mentioned) they claim that makes them the "victims," then you can legitimately discuss the flaws of the US or Great Britain or anyone else.
If you excuse their mass slaughter of innocents all over the world, including in Iraq or in Israel or even the United States, then you are simply an enabler of mass murdering scum and should be regarded as such.

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Sure it is.
Islamic fascist death cultists murder innocent people, mostly other Muslims, at random - anywhere; any time, in the name of their imaginary Death god.
If you condemn the Islamic fascists, no matter what bizarre reasoning (such as the things you mentioned) they claim that makes them the "victims," then you can legitimately discuss the flaws of the US or Great Britain or anyone else.
If you excuse their mass slaughter of innocents all over the world, including in Iraq or in Israel or even the United States, then you are simply an enabler of mass murdering scum and should be regarded as such.

Does this mean you excuse the mass slaughter of innocents by US, UK and even Israel? I don't condone any heinous acts of atrocities by anyone.

Why is it "bizarre" reasoning to protest against foreign military bases and the plundering of resources by foreign corporations? For instance Japan has had a US military base in Okinawa since the end of WWII. There has been large protests by the locals against this base because there has been problems like rape committed by US soldiers of Japanese women. Is it "bizarre" for them to then protest against this foreign military base in their country?

Why is the onus always on the Muslims? The US and UK has a very long history of bloody colonialism and imperialism. It was the US that dropped the atomic bomb and still continues to completely cover up the real consequences of a nuclear bomb. Is that not one of the biggest crimes of this century? What about Israel and their numerous human rights violation?

[web.amnesty.org]

It's true these fundamentalists are dangerous people and this is why most regular Muslims condemn them too. Ironically the US seems to support these fundamentalists as well since they helped put up the Shah in Iran and continue to support Saudia Arabia, a fundamentalist country.

How much of what you are saying is really true anyways? Do you know about the mercenaries that were caught shooting at both Iraqis and US marines wearing the Star of David?

[judicial-inc.biz]
[judicial-inc.biz]
[judicial-inc.biz]
[judicial-inc.biz]

Many US soldiers are questioning some of these events and believe it to be an inside job.

Iraq for Sale:
[video.google.com]


What about Jews then? Let's not forget there are some Jewish cults listed on this website here.

Columbine and the Trenchcoat mafia were all Jewish kids and shot a girl for holding a Bible:
[judicial-inc.biz]

Jack the Ripper was a Jew:
[judicial-inc.biz]

Here's some interesting reading:
[www.answering-christianity.com]
[www.biblebelievers.org.au]



My point is that everyone has blood on their hands. I have even criticized my own father for "defending" the allegations against Japan of wartime crimes. There is also a lot of misinformation out there. Personally my problem with the Islamic fascist angle is that it seems to be blown out of proportion which has been aided by the media and this rampant misinformation has lead to stereotyping of all Arabs. Even if these fundamentalists are dangerous why is the US being completely hypocritical in who they go after in the middle east? I just don't believe we are told the whole story.

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kageki

Quote

Sure it is.
Islamic fascist death cultists murder innocent people, mostly other Muslims, at random - anywhere; any time, in the name of their imaginary Death god.
If you condemn the Islamic fascists, no matter what bizarre reasoning (such as the things you mentioned) they claim that makes them the "victims," then you can legitimately discuss the flaws of the US or Great Britain or anyone else.
If you excuse their mass slaughter of innocents all over the world, including in Iraq or in Israel or even the United States, then you are simply an enabler of mass murdering scum and should be regarded as such.

Does this mean you excuse the mass slaughter of innocents by US, UK and even Israel? I don't condone any heinous acts of atrocities by anyone.

Why is it "bizarre" reasoning to protest against foreign military bases and the plundering of resources by foreign corporations? For instance Japan has had a US military base in Okinawa since the end of WWII. There has been large protests by the locals against this base because there has been problems like rape committed by US soldiers of Japanese women. Is it "bizarre" for them to then protest against this foreign military base in their country?

Why is the onus always on the Muslims? The US and UK has a very long history of bloody colonialism and imperialism. It was the US that dropped the atomic bomb and still continues to completely cover up the real consequences of a nuclear bomb. Is that not one of the biggest crimes of this century? What about Israel and their numerous human rights violation?

[web.amnesty.org]

It's true these fundamentalists are dangerous people and this is why most regular Muslims condemn them too. Ironically the US seems to support these fundamentalists as well since they helped put up the Shah in Iran and continue to support Saudia Arabia, a fundamentalist country.

How much of what you are saying is really true anyways? Do you know about the mercenaries that were caught shooting at both Iraqis and US marines wearing the Star of David?

[judicial-inc.biz]
[judicial-inc.biz]
[judicial-inc.biz]
[judicial-inc.biz]

Many US soldiers are questioning some of these events and believe it to be an inside job.

Iraq for Sale:
[video.google.com]


What about Jews then? Let's not forget there are some Jewish cults listed on this website here.

Columbine and the Trenchcoat mafia were all Jewish kids and shot a girl for holding a Bible:
[judicial-inc.biz]

Jack the Ripper was a Jew:
[judicial-inc.biz]

Here's some interesting reading:
[www.answering-christianity.com]
[www.biblebelievers.org.au]



My point is that everyone has blood on their hands. I have even criticized my own father for "defending" the allegations against Japan of wartime crimes. There is also a lot of misinformation out there. Personally my problem with the Islamic fascist angle is that it seems to be blown out of proportion which has been aided by the media and this rampant misinformation has lead to stereotyping of all Arabs. Even if these fundamentalists are dangerous why is the US being completely hypocritical in who they go after in the middle east? I just don't believe we are told the whole story.

Yes, of course that's your point.
"Everybody does it." Therefore the tens of millions of Islamic fascist death cultists need to be understood; need to be communicated with; need to have their imaginary grievances aired; need all kinds of special treatment because, after all, "everybody does it."
No, kageki, everybody doesn't do it.

Step One on your road to recovery:
Condemn, in no uncertain terms, without any qualifiers whatsoever, Islamic fascist death cult Jihaddi terrorist scum who murder innocent people anywhere at anytime in anyplace for any reason, including those heinous murders that take place in the United States or Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan...
Do not excuse, for any reason whatsoever, their sick crimes and twisted beliefs.
Step Two on your road to recovery:
Accept, in no uncertain terms, without any qualifiers whatsoever, that the reasons these Islamic fascist death cult Jihaddi terrorist scum murder innocent people anywhere at anytime in anyplace for any reason, including those heinous murders that take place in the United States or Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan is because they have a sick political and religious agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of Israel or the influence of the United States or the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan or any other "Western influence."
Accept that these people will riot; murder; and destroy each other in the name of any imaginary political or religious grievance including cartoons; the emancipation of women; and giving people the right to vote.

Once you have accepted and fully realized these two premises, feel free to criticize all of the things that are, indeed, wrong with the rest of the world.

(It would help, incidentally, if you actually knew any real history or actually visited any factual websites as opposed to those that view the world as a giant conspiracy designed to keep you from knowing "the Truth." But I don't wish to distract your acceptance of the above premises...)

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Yes, of course that's your point.
"Everybody does it." Therefore the tens of millions of Islamic fascist death cultists need to be understood; need to be communicated with; need to have their imaginary grievances aired; need all kinds of special treatment because, after all, "everybody does it."
No, kageki, everybody doesn't do it.

First of all is tens of millions even near the correct number or are you lumping other Muslims together in that figure? Let's not forget there are 1 billion Muslims in this world. What exactly is Islamic fascist death cultists anyways? The government never addresses these people with such a fancy name. It's usually just terrorists or insurgents. A Jew complaining about special treatment and imaginary grievances? That's just about the worst case of pot calling the kettle black! Besides you are grossly downplaying some of the Arabs legitimate grievances.

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Step One on your road to recovery:
Condemn, in no uncertain terms, without any qualifiers whatsoever, Islamic fascist death cult Jihaddi terrorist scum who murder innocent people anywhere at anytime in anyplace for any reason, including those heinous murders that take place in the United States or Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan...
Do not excuse, for any reason whatsoever, their sick crimes and twisted beliefs.

I have remarked a few times I don't condone any acts of atrocities. Again being that these murders are usually reactionary measures, are you condoning the murder by US and Israel? What about Iraq and Afghanistan exactly? Off course it's ok when the US and Israel "retaliate" against these attacks but not the other way around? This is what Bin Laden had to say:

[www.worldpress.org]

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I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

Off course I don't condone the attack on WTC, but let's not forget that US and Israel is not exactly innocent children here.

Quote

Step Two on your road to recovery:
Accept, in no uncertain terms, without any qualifiers whatsoever, that the reasons these Islamic fascist death cult Jihaddi terrorist scum murder innocent people anywhere at anytime in anyplace for any reason, including those heinous murders that take place in the United States or Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan is because they have a sick political and religious agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of Israel or the influence of the United States or the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan or any other "Western influence."
Accept that these people will riot; murder; and destroy each other in the name of any imaginary political or religious grievance including cartoons; the emancipation of women; and giving people the right to vote.

Nothing to do? Moishe are you sure you are not working for the Israeli government or something? Israel and Western influences is EXACTLY what Bin Laden and the Iranian President repeatedly talk about. Was it anywhere near as crazy over there before the creation of Israel? Israel has everything to do with the conflict over there. I agree though that these fundamentalists are dangerous people with their desire for Sharia law. That is why I want the US government to stop supporting these fundamentalist regimes like Saudi Arabia or even the Taliban.

Quote

Once you have accepted and fully realized these two premises, feel free to criticize all of the things that are, indeed, wrong with the rest of the world.

(It would help, incidentally, if you actually knew any real history or actually visited any factual websites as opposed to those that view the world as a giant conspiracy designed to keep you from knowing "the Truth." But I don't wish to distract your acceptance of the above premises...)

As it ever was this has been the classic chicken and the egg question. Who started first? Did Bin Laden type people exist before WWII? Did all the middle east conflict start before the creation of Israel? Real history Moishe? What about the Jewish declaration of war on Germany?

[www.wintersonnenwende.com]

How about the fact that Stalin was a communist and also a Jew? What is conspiratorial about mercenaries shooting people at random in Iraq wearing the Star of David? That is a fact.

Moishe, I condemn atrocities committed by anyone. It is you that does not condemn US and Israel equally in this mess. Let me remind you that Israel is the sole nuclear power in that region with a formidable military that is quickly rivaling the superpowers of this world funded by US taxpayers. You keep complaining about these "death cultists" while you have crazy Israelis calling for a nuclear strike on Iran!

[www.israelnewsagency.com]

Who is really oppressed over there?

Point taken.
What can I say?
Your justification for ritual tribalism and disgusting violence is very well stated.
You believe that these barbaric practices are acceptable because of grievances stated.
I do not.

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Moishe3rd
Point taken.
What can I say?
Your justification for ritual tribalism and disgusting violence is very well stated.
You believe that these barbaric practices are acceptable because of grievances stated.
I do not.

No Moishe. I have stated repeatedly I do not condone any atrocities. Instead of just picking on Arabs, which needs no further details since we are all well aware of it, I'm condemning everyone equally. I have a question for you that you keep avoiding.

Do you condemn the numerous human rights violation by Israel as well? Or how about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were "displaced" when Israel was created?


On another note, what about the practice of Orthodox rabbis that suck blood from the circumcision wound? I find that very unsettling also.

[www.cirp.org]

I'm not particularly fond of the gruesome details of ritual sacrifice in the Old Testament either.

You also need to be more specific because you just keep tossing out such generalizations it's hard to understand what exactly you are talking about. You might as well be describing some sick Jewish rituals too.

Are you talking about Kurds or just Arabs in general? There is a big difference right there. As I understand it, Kurds are a specific race of people who do allow honor killing of family members that is part of their culture. This is strictly forbidden by Muslims. Again start talking more specifically or else you sound like an illogical hate-mongerer.

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kageki

Quote
Moishe3rd
Point taken.
What can I say?
Your justification for ritual tribalism and disgusting violence is very well stated.
You believe that these barbaric practices are acceptable because of grievances stated.
I do not.

No Moishe. I have stated repeatedly I do not condone any atrocities. Instead of just picking on Arabs, which needs no further details since we are all well aware of it, I'm condemning everyone equally. I have a question for you that you keep avoiding.

Do you condemn the numerous human rights violation by Israel as well? Or how about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were "displaced" when Israel was created?


On another note, what about the practice of Orthodox rabbis that suck blood from the circumcision wound? I find that very unsettling also.

[www.cirp.org]

I'm not particularly fond of the gruesome details of ritual sacrifice in the Old Testament either.

You also need to be more specific because you just keep tossing out such generalizations it's hard to understand what exactly you are talking about. You might as well be describing some sick Jewish rituals too.

Are you talking about Kurds or just Arabs in general? There is a big difference right there. As I understand it, Kurds are a specific race of people who do allow honor killing of family members that is part of their culture. This is strictly forbidden by Muslims. Again start talking more specifically or else you sound like an illogical hate-mongerer.

No, I don't think so.
I quite specifically laid out the conditions of my interest in dialog, and you rejected them.
I have no interest in refuting silly meanderings on your part, nor engaging with one who continues in the mode of "they all do it, so stop blaming the Arab/Muslim fascist death cult Jihaddi terrorist murderers."
Nope. I think I'll continue to focus on the problem, not some peripheral nonsense...

Quote

No, I don't think so.
I quite specifically laid out the conditions of my interest in dialog, and you rejected them.
I have no interest in refuting silly meanderings on your part, nor engaging with one who continues in the mode of "they all do it, so stop blaming the Arab/Muslim fascist death cult Jihaddi terrorist murderers."
Nope. I think I'll continue to focus on the problem, not some peripheral nonsense...

What part of no I don't condone any atrocities do you not understand? I never said stop blaming them. It's more "lets blame everyone", but I do condemn extremists in all forms like the Taliban who did turn Afghanistan into a fundamentalist nightmare.

Now can you condemn the atrocities committed by the Israelis?

"Focusing on the problem" inevitably leads to Israel, I hope you realize that. You also can't refute my "silly meanderings" because it's true. I don't make up stuff unlike you.