wow. overland traveller. that's a lot, and great stuff as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2022 03:50PM by oneclickwonder.

Thank you so much for your wonderful contribution. I have found your sharing to be deeply meaningful. I'm so glad you have contributed to the forum so now others can see you're clearly well thought out words. I have found them valuable and helpful to me and I'm sure that others will as well.

overlandtraveler Wrote:
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> I am sitting here in my kitchen at the table,
> considering what to write, as I have had so many
> varying experiences with the Clairvision School
> (CVS) and Samuel directly.
>
> A bit about my involvement with the school- I will
> say that I can not give out too much info, as it
> would immediately identify myself and I am not
> ready to be outed. Please, if you do recognize who
> I am, don't out me, but I am more than happy to
> speak to someone via DM, always happy.
>
> I started with the school, not from the very
> beginning in the 1990's, but I was part of the
> first full training in the U.S., before the New
> York property was purchased, and long before
> Berkeley and Shasta were around, so beginning
> about 2003 until I fully left in 2012. I met
> Samuel initially in 2004 when he came to the US to
> buy a property and have a full-time training and
> when I met him I fully knew that I needed to work
> with him so that I could learn and grow
> spiritually, as I had been searching for a while
> for a mentor and teacher to help me awaken to my
> latent abilities. I had been working with
> Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner's work (I was
> raised with it), but just reading books left me
> feeling empty, I needed more, I wanted to
> experience the worlds he described in his books,
> and I also had to (later figured out) retrieve a
> piece of my soul that had long ago detached. The
> Samuel I met initially in 2004 compared to the
> Samuel he became in the later years were very,
> very different people, and I fully feel that while
> perhaps the CVS isn't fully a cult, over the years
> it became more and more like one, so that by the
> time I left the school out of disgust and dislike
> for the overall lack of integrity and clarity,
> the school had really jumped the shark.
>
> Everything that has been written in this forum, I
> have experienced myself, and to watch what was
> happening mostly from the beginning of the
> incarnation of the school in the US was really
> uncomfortable and lacked any ethical/spiritual
> integrity. While some of what has been written, I
> do disagree with, like mediation is hypnosis, that
> the school was new age, and a few other things, I
> did personally witness and or had happen to me,
> physical abuse, trauma abuse, mental and emotional
> abuse and various other scarring events.
>
> My involvement with the school was always on my
> own terms because I felt there were so many
> ethical and moral issues and never told anyone
> about the school. It was like I saw with higher
> vision that this tool would help me get from A to
> B (funny, I hated meditation actually, and took
> years before I took it seriously, I was all about
> IST/ISIS), I did consciously use Samuel and "the
> work" to learn as much as I could, to further my
> spiritual development and awakening, and later
> learned after a discussion with Samuel a few days
> before he died, that he hindered my development
> intentionally because, in his words, "you could
> easily be more powerful than me if you keep doing
> the work." I was floored, but not surprised. I am
> now working with teachers to enhance my abilities
> and work as a trance medium, but it took the last
> 10 years to work through the very real and
> visceral abuse via the school.
>
> I was excited when I moved to the school full-time
> in NY to continue my studies and to learn as much
> as I could, and honestly, I did learn a lot. At
> that time, I was on this intense quest to find and
> retrieve my missing part, and did as much IST/ISIS
> as I could, for me past life regression worked
> very well, I still use it with my clients, but
> with clarity, integrity, honor and love. I also
> call it something else and no where do I mention
> Samuel or the school, because I want absolutely no
> affiliation, and really do hope someone is
> investigating the school and will some day call
> them out for the unethical things they are doing.
>
> It is my opinion that no one who is currently
> running the school and the extended courses like
> the ATE courses, has any business or ability to be
> do so and the school should have died when Samuel
> did. I am not surprised that the abuse has gotten
> seemingly worse because the people who are now in
> charge have no integrity or idea about what they
> are doing, none of them can do what Samuel could
> do, and they don't understand what they are
> teaching. Samuel told me in the conversation I had
> with him at the end that "you always got it
> immediately, I only had to show you once, no
> matter how advanced and you got it, I have never
> had a student who could do follow me like you can"
>
> What was sad to me was why couldn't he treat me
> with respect and kindness? why couldn't he help me
> and mentor me? I was routinely pushed aside,
> ignored, rejected, laughed at and belittled,
> humiliated and often told that I was not "one of
> the inside team". I was with the school nine years
> and never, ever was told by Samuel anything
> positive or nice. He would routinely truly make me
> wonder if I had any ability, if what I was
> experiencing was real, if I even belonged in the
> school, but my feeling was that until I got
> learned what I needed to, I wasn't leaving and he
> did show me a lot,
>
> His "'team" of people would often school or tell
> me what I could and couldn't say to people in the
> courses and school, what I needed to change about
> myself, always about how I needed to listen to
> them and take in their criticisms and their
> sometimes obvious hatred or distain for me, and
> this was always under the guise of "reflection".
> After some serious health events made going to
> intensives impossible, I lost all the people I did
> consider friends in the school, which was a
> pattern; don't go to intensives, and you are
> shunned, which is very cult like. I spent years
> with some of these people I considered friends,
> people whom I had gone through some serious shit
> with, and they just disappeared, which really
> hurt. Everyone who I thought was a friend,
> disappeared. I even heard from one person who got
> in touch with me that Samuel told several people
> to not talk to me, which they of course didn't.
>
> A few years after I left the school I started to
> figure out who and what I was, and it took years
> and years to untangle the false narrative I was
> taught, to learn a different way of working with
> spirit, and to own my power in a healthy way. What
> they push is abuse and also a very narrow way of
> working with spirit, and importantly there are a
> few people (specifically a Singaporean person) who
> are sadistic and very cruel to people under the
> guise of fellowship.
>
> I do believe Samuel had good intentions when he
> started the school back in the beginning, and even
> when he went about establishing the school in the
> US, but over time became more and more enamored
> with his power, his arrogance and his little ego.
> He chose some of the coldest and most simply cruel
> people to take over his seat, most of them have
> never "made the work, work", have hidden away at
> this school with their perceived power and
> coldness, believing they are demi-gods, and with
> my perception, none, not one of the people who run
> that school have any business doing what they are
> doing. I feel they are going to do severe damage
> to people, they are both power hungry and lazy,
> embodying the arrogance they were taught by their
> teacher, but without his skills and abilities.
>
> What strikes me the most, and always has, is that
> heart, heartness, kidness and love were rarely if
> ever emphasized in the trainings and teachings.
> That harshness and lack of love and respect was
> very felt in the so called act of "reflection"
> (aka, i am reacting and won't own it) which really
> sits at the heart of the school, if there is one.
> Working with spirit is all about heart and love.
> Without love and light, you have nothing, except
> darkness, and I see and feel that is exactly where
> they are pulling from. Darkness often veils itself
> in "light", and so many are taken down the wrong
> path believing they are working with the light,
> and it is my perception this is what Samuel did in
> the last few years, so have his "team" unknowingly
> been working with very dark and quite frankly,
> very fucked up energies. There is no way back from
> this for them, so either they continue to do what
> they are doing, or if we are lucky, it will
> implode around them.
>
> I stopped speaking to students and working with
> anything related to Clairvison about 2012, so I am
> unaware of anything that may have happened since
> then. I only spoke to Samuel that last week before
> he died, as we had been in communication regarding
> my health (again, if I disclose what was happening
> it might out me). It was so strange with him, I
> often wonder what our past history was in previous
> lifetimes, as it seemed we had a mutual respect
> while he also ran very cruel and really seemed to
> lack compassion. Honestly. I saw him like this
> with many, many people, not just myself.
> He had one persona for intensives and public
> trainings and he was a totally different person in
> private. He was so mean and very cruel and cold,
> especially to the students he had sex with (again,
> zero integrity), my gods he would destroy them as
> people, and I always wondered why he did that, why
> so cruel? I watched women become anorexic and
> filled with self-hate when they were one of his
> sex partners, then he would throw them away and
> discard them like garbage, and they always ran
> back, fighting over him with each other, and as
> one person mentioned here, one of the women he
> destroyed had followed him for years and years,
> really dedicated her life to him, only to be asked
> to leave and disappear overnight. One day she was
> gone, and no one spoke about it openly. We all
> asked where she was, and I heard she had left
> after Samuel told her to. I mean, she left her
> family and son behind, earned him his US
> Citizenship (green card marriage, which is/was
> very popular in the school, again, ethics) and
> worked so hard to make Lynnskill a livable and
> viable place and business. She was a good person
> with a good heart, a bit kooky, and really nice.
> Always wondered what happened to her, I do hope
> she is well and has had some healing.
>
> I know I have written a lot about the negatives,
> because this is a forum to unload a lot of that,
> but I did have good and great times too, and to be
> fair, I learned so much, I had experiences I
> wouldn't have had if I hadn't lived in upstate NY,
> which was fantastic, I learned how to work with
> land energies, how to hold myself in my own power
> (maybe because of the abuse), inner clarity and
> vision. and really, I found that piece I had to
> find, brought it back and unloaded a millenia of
> Samskaras that held me back from my true self. For
> that I am grateful to have found and worked with
> the school, and with Jean Paul, which I think was
> Samuel's true first name, saw it once on a credit
> card, but unfortunately never saw the last name
> :(. I loved upstate SO much and would love to move
> back to the Catskills, and I did let go of
> unwanted baggage and learned to live honestly,
> clearly and most of all, I am free.
>
> I still wonder why I chose to work with the
> school, but I also see how much the rejection and
> distain I felt actually pushed me to find my true
> calling and self, that while the tools of the
> school were what I really loved, the abuse was
> only tolerable because I had a mission. Perhaps I
> could have learned differently with someone else,
> and while meditation is an amazing tool and path
> and I now use it daily, regression therapy helped
> me regain myself, and I haven't found anything
> like it, but only when done with love, compassion,
> intelligence and honest working with spirit.
>
> If you have made it this far, thank you for
> reading, I know it was long and drawn out. I sat
> with this for a few days before writing to make
> sure I was clear in what I was saying. I am glad
> everyone has a place to come together and talk,
> hopefully doing so will allow for healing.

I also was involved with the school for several years and now know it to be a modern day cult. At the end of the day, what the school has to offer will not bring you anywhere meaningful in life, and the regression catharsis technique is outdated. I find it very hard to believe that only an IST practitioner can help with certain spiritual “problems” that the school itself has created for followers to believe in (ex:entities). It is a convenient setup to draw you and your dollars back into the group. Unfortunately those who have experienced trauma are most likely to be drawn into the school. There are some good techniques related to meditation but as someone else said here once you get past the intro course there are some very dark things going on including serious manipulation. Save yourself the trouble and stay away.

Could you share more. I’ve been active on these forums for years and also feel I’ve been swindled badly. For a significant amount of money as well.

What was your experience like with teachers and ist practitioners? Did you ever meet Samuel Sagan?

Were you the subject of slander by teachers and CV staff to other students and discredited to your friends within the school? I think I was

I think they essentially did a slander job to push me away from others and limit my voice as I came to criticize the school more and more. And it worked to a degree, many of my former friends came to alienate me and only a small number came to my defence. Almost none told me why they would not talk to me and what they were told about me, except through vague admissions.

I still like the knowledge tracks and the meditation techniques though and have had some amazing experiences with them.

Feeling distant and even facing criticism when questioning the school’s teachings is to be expected. The reason? Students deeply root their identity in these teachings. So, when you imply that the school may be flawed, many could take it as a direct attack on their cherished beliefs, beliefs that may have supported them during tough or traumatic times. Challenge these foundations, and some might perceive it as shattering their very essence, which is traumatic in itself. This distancing is not just personal but also a defense mechanism, a common strategy among cult like groups to ensure their survival. It wasn’t about you… it was them.

There are suggestions on this site that the energy surrounding the school is questionable, and that resonates with me. For this reason I stay away from the techniques. Music, books ect are all ways to get you more and more indoctrinated.

I believe there's an element of the power of suggestion at play, making you "see" what others claim to see, even though you « see for yourself », which convinces you of its reality. Remember, too, prolonged meditation can cloud one's ability to think clearly.

I want to share some things that helped me understand some of the abuse that happens there. I was involved for a long time. I have a lot to say about the level of toxicity in clairvision.

Fragmentation

One thing that helped me understand what's happening with many people is called fragmentation. It's when you believe that the organisation is good or helpful and over time you begin to see that it's actually pretty toxic and destructive you are faced with a decision. There are many factors, like how much time you invested or if you're dating someone in the school, or if you don't have any friends outside of the school, will influence the decision. You see that there's a lot of destructive things going on and there's a moment where you have to decide. Am I going to speak up and accept that this is toxic? Or am I going to deny it's happening so I can continue to participate in the group. When the person decides to deny they kind of fragment themselves on a psychological level. It's like they have to deny that the part of them that sees the destructive behaviours and toxic culture exists. They fragment away from their integrity to avoid the whole mess of speaking up, and they also get to avoid confronting the fact that they might have wasted years of their life into a process that doesn't actually work the way they have been told it works. This is actually an existential crisis within the person and its painful. But if they just deny, then they avoid the pain and the crisis.

So then you come along and say hey, there's something bad happening here, this is toxic or abusive or whatever you flag. Well for them to acknowledge you, and support you in flagging the abuse, they have to confront what they themselves denied to themselves. They have to reintegrate what they fragmented within themselves. They are not ready to face this so they have to deny your reality as well. So the gaslighting begins and so on. They attack you because you're showing them what they have been denying to themselves the whole time. It's a big deal. It becomes a collective agreement within the group to stamp out dissenters. You get ostracised.

The economy of status

Once you become part of an organisation your status within that organisation matters. We are wired to belong to a social hierarchy as part of our survival. When there's no finacial payment for contributions to the group, status becomes the currency. People try to ally themselves with others who have more status. It's a constant game. It becomes it's own little economy driven by a deep psychological need to belong. So people start doing all sorts of things to suck up to the people who have power as an attempt to gain more status. And it's all driven by this big illusion of scarcity. Once you stop trying to climb the ladder you become useless to the people who are. They can't manipulate you anymore. You're outside the economic structure.

This then becomes a breeding ground for spiritual materialism because who ever has more status is seen by the collective as more enlightened.

I'm not sure how much interaction you had with Samuel in thunder mountain. But he loved to play that game. He would raise people up and as he did they would become more susceptible to his manipulation. When they disobeyed he would then humiliate them in front of the whole group.

I wanted to chime in to the question metanoia raised. It can be seen at the bottom of this posting.

A lot of our understanding of spiritual concepts in the western world are taken from eastern traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism. Many Hindu traditions are part of Vedanta. In Vedanta they believe that incarnating into physical bodies was a kind of cosmic blunder that wasn't supposed to happen. The whole goal of enlightenment is to remove yourself from this level of reality by attaining nirvana or becoming one with the divine. They want to detach from matter and not return. Similarly in Buddhism they cultivate non attachment because they believe our attachment is what draws us towards suffering and incarnation because incarnation is like an expression of suffering.

This is what I remember from discussions around the body of immortality...

While clairvision uses a lot of concepts from eastern traditions it's practices are really more rooted in western esoteric traditions based in occultism and alchemy. The theosophical society is also rooted in those traditions.

While many eastern ideologies want to transcend the physical plane occultism is more about trying to bring divinity into matter. Instead of leaving the physical plane and migrating to the divine they want to bring the divine into matter and thereby transform matter.

The idea of the body of immortality is where you transform the lower astral matter of your mind with the light of the higher self. By doing this you develop your consciousness into an indestructible type of energy so when you die your astral body doesn't shatter, you don't lose your identity or accumulated knowledge. You retain your knowledge after death and reincarnate with a fully developed personality and all the abilities you acquired in the previous life. Then when you reincarnate you also bring your knowledge of higher worlds and your higher self into your new life with you. You become immune to the forgetfulness that is part of incarnating as a human. In Greek mythology they talk about drinking from the waters of the river lethe before being born. The waters of lethe is what makes you forget where you were prior to becoming a human. It's one of the rivers in the hades.

This way you can do the work of the divine and remember the true nature of the self while incarnated as a human. Like an angel in a human body. And each life builds upon the last so you continue to develop all your skills and abilities.

If you could play piano in your last life, you will pretty much know how to play piano as a child, if a piano is available you will learn to play it as fast as you can learn basic motor control.

Supposedly you will also know what spirtual lessons you are here to learn and also what you can teach to others. It's like you become the ultimate spiritual missionary because you're just smarter than everyone else and you're connected to the divine source. You remember all your past lives and are a more skilled and effective human. It's the ultimate way to hack reality and escape death while still going through the death process and acquiring a fresh body.

Some Hindu traditions also talk about bringing the divine into mater. Tantra is one of them. If I remember correctly Hinduism is made up of mostly of vedantic traditions, like 95% vedanta and about 5% tantra. Tantric traditions are less common. I think Tibetan buddhism is more akin to tantra than vedanta. It's been a while since I learned this stuff so don't quote me.


metanoia Wrote:
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> A question for those in the know, as this thread
> has been livelier of late:
>
> I was particularly put off by CV practitioners'
> view that the goal of their practice and
> involvement in the school was to develop what they
> call 'the body of immortality,' or a subtle body
> that can survive physical death. To me it seemed
> like the ultimate in egocentric activity, and
> pretty diametrically opposed to what I understand
> spirituality to be about. Buddhism, Vedanta,
> Sufism, Kabbalah, just about every spiritual path
> that I know of emphasizes that acceptance of
> impermanence and transience is critical to genuine
> spiritual development.
>
> CV also does not seem to be particularly up-front
> about the fact that this goal is what people are
> signing on for, which, IMO, seems to violate the
> principle of informed consent as I understand it.
>
> I am curious why CV seems to think this is a
> worthy goal, and how central is it to what they
> do?

This is one of the best things that's been written by someone on this message board --- THANK YOU!

Hey corboy

Really? That's funny. I'm glad you like it. I don't really believe all that anymore though, but when I read it back it sounds a bit like I'm selling it. That’s all mainly from esoterisism though. There's not really much original stuff in clairvision in my opinion. Its just repackaged and recycled from other traditions. And the stuff that is original doesn't really work anyway I don't think. Like IST doesn't work the way they present it. And the point work doesn't really work the way the sell it either. That's just my opinion though.

W
Also when you read Aztec and Mayan mythology you begin to find that a lot of the stories and ideas in Atlantean Secrets are very similar as well.

corboy Wrote:
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> This is one of the best things that's been written
> by someone on this message board --- THANK YOU!

Could you please share your personal perspective on the power of the point and IST as it’s presented as opposed to how they actually operate?

I’m curious and I’d like to hear more about these topics from other people and welcome hearing about the experiences from anyone who feels they have something to add.