check out the new thread if you haven't already, as the conversation continues. I actually didn't even know this alternate thread existed so that's why I posted this link, it is also on the cult education forum here on this website.

[forum.culteducation.com]

What does one do when someone at clairvision has been abusive to them and now this abusive person might go off to instruct others in the clairvision technique? This person is a bully and delulu and its never their mistake but its always YOUR samskaras...
Has anyone here tried to get someone out of a cult? Sounds like a bad idea but I hope this person finds the REAL help they need and not hurt other people. I hate to see innocent vulnerable people getting further harmed by such people :'(

Thank you everyone for sharing, including the other thread [forum.culteducation.com]. It's been very validating and helpful to read these comments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2024 05:37AM by Andromeda.

Andromeda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does one do when someone at clairvision has
> been abusive to them and now this abusive person
> might go off to instruct others in the clairvision
> technique? This person is a bully and delulu and
> its never their mistake but its always YOUR
> samskaras...

I think you just described the entirety of the clairvision leadership...soooo.....

> Has anyone here tried to get someone out of a
> cult? Sounds like a bad idea but I hope this
> person finds the REAL help they need and not hurt
> other people. I hate to see innocent vulnerable
> people getting further harmed by such people :'(

Unfortunately I think there's been far more harm done by clairvision people than anything beneficial and this is likely to continue.

Trying to get someone out of a cult... well, No, I haven't really tried. Looking back at myself, I see how someone telling me this was a cult would have been pretty pointless at the time, I wouldn't have listened. Seems similar for the supposed friends I had to leave behind as well, they weren't interested to hear what I had to say about it and spouted back the typical clairvision rhetoric you mentioned about it just being your samskaras. I had to see the cult like aspects of clairvision for myself I guess... just hoping that what people have posted here might start that process for others, like you said, validating that what they are seeing and feeling isn't just them and their samskaras. Supporting that cv student that gets a wild hair and starts doing some googling about what's been written by other about their beloved school might be enough to get the wheels turning?

Hey! I tried sending a pm but it seems that your inbox is full and can’t receive messages. If you see this let me know if u can free up space. Thank you (:

also check out this thread, once unknown to me, now found.

[forum.culteducation.com]

there are interesting details there about the building of an underground hotel they constructed at the school.

As someone who has been involved with this school for some time, I’m writing this in the hope it will bring some perspective. I have been aware of these forums for a while, yet find it difficult to know how best to contribute. What has been written here is mostly one-sided, and I feel it’s important to try and bring some equanimity.

I have been a student with this school for over 20 years. I joined because I was looking for a place where I could learn to meditate, and this approach suited me. I wasn’t interested in self-help, I wanted self-knowledge. And although it’s been challenging at times, as many spiritual paths are, it’s helped me discover more about who I am, and that has made me a better person. I know it’s not for everyone, nor does it have to be.

I have had differing levels of involvement and participation over time, but overall have found it to be a place where there is a depth of experience and support for those seeking to walk a path of self-discovery. Needless to say, my experience has been quite different from what’s been described elsewhere on this thread.

I understand that people may have had misgivings, but some of these posts include misleading information that borders on criminal acts. It’s hard to leave it here without responding. And honestly, this is the difficulty – these forums have to provide a space for victims to share freely, and yet how can readers determine what is a misgiving and what has been written to create harm. I have been involved with this school long enough to know there has been no surveillance, no drugging, no deaths. These are extreme things to claim, and don't align with the reality of how this school operates.

This is a small school, run by volunteers. People's most common interaction with the school is attending a course once every year or so. Students are from all over the world, leading normal lives, with professions and families. After they attend courses, students are free to practice the techniques on their own, or not.

I understand that following a spiritual path may not be the mainstream norm in today’s world, but I hope there’s still space for individuals to wholeheartedly dedicate themselves to having an active spiritual component in their lives.

I’m well aware that it’s an impossible thing to try and counter argue many of these accusations. Many people I know who have come across this forum have felt hesitant to engage, and discouraged from even trying, due to the inaccurate, and at times extreme nature of some of the postings. But I write this for the people who may have come across this site, and are seeking broader inputs.

In a previous post, someone wrote about Clairvision -
“It is spirituality with teeth.
It isn’t always comfortable,
but I have had the most glorious spiritual experiences with that school,
words will simply fail to relay the possibilities if you are willing to engage CV fully.”

This speaks to my experience. Simply put, Clairvision is a school of meditation, not a cult.

For the record, I am also serious about engagement with spirituality in my life--I am glad your experience has been positive and that you haven't been harmed, but frankly, there are always people who can say that about any cult-like situation. People said that about Osho, Adi Da, Andrew Cohen, Gurumayi, the list goes on and on. The fact that some people have positive experiences and feel relatively unscathed does not necessarily negate a cultic organizational structure, practices, or modes of authority.

For me, I am never going to be ok with a nominally spiritual organization that is dishonest with newcomers about its basic premises and orientation. If I sit with a Zen Buddhist teacher, it is clear from the jump where this comes from and what it is about. My experience with CV is that it presents itself as a school of meditation oriented toward typical goals (spiritual development, human well-being, etc.), but as I found when I queried the local teacher more closely, actually aims at the creation of a subtle body that can survive physical death (which is quite antithetical to what I understand spirituality to be about and for), and claims to come from a lost Atlantean civilization that the founder conveniently has in his reincarnational history. I am so utterly uninterested in those ideas that I cannot adequately convey it in language, and it is fundamentally deceptive and dishonest to not put those claims and intentions front and center when inviting new people in. It is very much a Scientology recruitment strategy--'we'll save the really weird stuff for once you're already invested and able to rationalize it away.' I find it manipulative, recruitment-oriented, and essentially disrespectful of people's autonomy and need for consent.

I find fairweatherbee's post a good example of what kind of gaslighting you should expect from people involved with clairvision. I saw things happen that people have written about here - they are not exaggerated or misleading from what I saw, they happened and continue to happen.

I see people posting here in hopes of preventing more harm to other potential students, not creating harm for the school itself (or being victims, which cv so much likes to call out in their students).


fairweatherbee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand that people may have had misgivings,
> but some of these posts include misleading
> information that borders on criminal acts. It’s
> hard to leave it here without responding. And
> honestly, this is the difficulty – these forums
> have to provide a space for victims to share
> freely, and yet how can readers determine what is
> a misgiving and what has been written to create
> harm. I have been involved with this school long
> enough to know there has been no surveillance, no
> drugging, no deaths. These are extreme things to
> claim, and don't align with the reality of how
> this school operates.
>
> I’m well aware that it’s an impossible thing to
> try and counter argue many of these accusations.
> Many people I know who have come across this forum
> have felt hesitant to engage, and discouraged from
> even trying, due to the inaccurate, and at times
> extreme nature of some of the postings. But I
> write this for the people who may have come across
> this site, and are seeking broader inputs.

This strikes me as dishonest at best. what metanoia said is spot on.

The school leads people in by lying about what goes on there, they don't tell the truth about what the organization really does.

There was a SUICIDE by at least one student (POSSIBLY ON HIDDEN VALLEY, THE PROPERTY IN AUSTRALIA) that you may not know about but which WE DO and which is very much covered up from you knowing, and they DO cover it up, which is why you don't know about it and are now lying about this unknowingly. If the school's vaunted visionary teachers are so good at finding out who people truly are then why are people leaving the school and killing themself? Why are people leaving the school and having psychotic breaks and ending up in mental institutions and getting told to seek help by mainstream mental health institutions? And I know they are because I have seen people who have gone through all that and heard CV teachers tell them to go seek mental health aid and leave the school. And I know the school teaches that their great ISIS practitioners are amazingly insightful because that's what they told me! And they lied all the time about how amazing their capabilities were and they never lived up to it.

What about fact that Malcolm Lehrer, the protagonist of Malcolm's Teacher, the first book in Divine Madness Endless Love 2, was practically a rapist and a murderer and a child abductor? Does that sound like a healthy man to heroize to you?

How about the ridiculous Atlantean Secrets mythos and the predictions of Bleeding Sun, how is that at all to do with spirituality? It had nothing to do with helping us live healthier lives and being our best selves, but instead was pushed as a vehicle of conformity upon us, and it worked! Many people wanted to model themselves after Szar and Hiram, the first of whom was so blindly loyal he went out to commit a premeditated racial killing at his leaders behest and almost did it, the second of whom raped and murdered his 16 year old girlfriend many times in VR and brought her back to life so he could do it again before suicide bombing her space station to save her from a bad life in VR ruled by what may or may not eb true evil. And this caused many, many problems for students in the school because of the toxic role modelling Samuel put forth, role modelling based upon groomed apprentices who did whatever their masters told them, just like teachers at the school wanted their own students to do. Be like Szar, be like Wooly, they're loyal to Master Gervin!

How do these books help men and women live true to themselves rather than role model something toxic and not true to who we really are? They don't help us and they don't tell you that upfront. Instead I was once told that some of us would fight in the war of the Apocalypse and become Brother Knights and that we would be killing and dying in space while fighting against the Rex Mundi and then fighting Ahriman again in the War of All Against All. They never warned us about that when we walked in the door of an Awakening the Third Eye workshop. They never warned us how extreme the school really was, and that's the point you miss. They just told us it was a school of meditation, and this sort of stuff has nothing to do with meditation.

What about the people who came out of ISIS classes who walked away gaslit and more damaged, there's men and women who ended up fucking their ISIS practitioner and having a relationship which was totally sexual with someone in a massive position of power over them and then were just broken up with and thrown away on NUMEROUS occasions, I know some of them!

And what about Samuel FUCKING MANY, MANY of his young and attractive female students? Which I know he did and always got away with and then just broke up with. Did you not know about that or did you just lie about it conveniently?

Just because all went well for you and you got the wool pulled over your eyes doesn't mean you have the whole story. There are many, many ex members who have the whole story and who have told it to the world, I know some of their words are motivated by pain, but who can blame them when the school has taken tens of thousands of dollars from them in some cases and then been abusive and refused to answer to any form of independent and transparent review or even answer to the abused students?

What are people to do when there is so much abuse found in this elitist school which has so little accountability and integrity and so much duplicity and refusal to be open from the start with the new people they bring in through the door with their advertising of Awakening the Third Eye workshops? Workshops which they advertise all over social media.

Why do you think people are angry, they want truth, integrity and transparency, but the school hides behind a curtain and leaves some no choice but to tell their story here so as to minimize the hurt of others who may be taken advantage of.

Some of us here may have misspoken or even lied a little, but some of us here are trying to serve the greater good and see that we have no real choice but to do this or watch the others out there be dragged down like we were, and we can't all let that happen. It would go against our morals to do so. I must warn people about the danger they face if they trust the school, my spiritual path requires no less of me, I have to live with integrity. People must be warned, so they know what they are actually getting into, and I must warn them in order to live up to my own code of honor. Samuel would have supported it if he was true to his values.

Should I be worried about my partner and our relationship after she has joined Clairvision in Australia. Since becoming involved with the group she seems to have become obsessed and addicted to it.