Current Page: 9 of 9
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: February 26, 2022 03:46AM

I'm sorry that happened. I can't believe how normalized behavior like that becomes in so many religious and spiritual schools. Did you tell anyone at the school about it? How did they react? How are you doing now?



LB_Slayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got almost raped at clairvision. I was touched
> physically without my permission by an IST
> practitioner in a session which violated my
> boundaries of consent, boundaries that I clearly
> stated before the session to the teacher and
> practitioner.
>
> I don't know if I'm safe to say this, I don't know
> if they'll be able to track me because I'm the
> only victim, I don't know if they'll blackmail me
> because of the private things that I said in the
> LISt sessions that I did with them.
>
> I don't know if I'll ever be safe.
>
> maybe they'll fuck me over because of the things I
> said here, maybe my life will get fucked because
> of it. I don't know, but I do know that Hiram
> raped the 16 year old Virginia and murdered her in
> Bleeding Sun before he practically married her in
> the afterlife with her father's permission
> and that Dwarkanath Tagore maried "the nine years
> old but extremely good-looking Digambari Devi."
>
> and if that doesn't sound like rape of a child
> then I don't know what to say to you...
>
> I was a young woman when I went to clairvision

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: February 26, 2022 04:04AM

I've had to take a hard look at my own involvement in the school as well. There was abuse I didn't have the courage to adress or report. A woman was knocked out and I didn't call the police because I was gaslighted so hard I couldn't think but honestly also because I was so scared of being kicked out. Was I abusive myself? Why did I believe it when others told all there was ever wrong with the school was people like me? Why did I belive jungian or freudian psychology could tell me the truth about myself just because som jerk pulled it out of his ass to pursuade me I secretly wanted all sorts of horrible stuff to happen? That stunt was pulled on others as well. Like the ones who did so many sessions they believed their debilitating anxiety of thinking bad thoughts was about some deeply buried desire about wanting to do evil.



orangegrl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Last year I heard from an old "friend" (or at
> least someone I used to know pretty well) from CV
> who told me her own story of what had happened to
> her ath the hands her own IST practitioner that
> made me need to seriously revisit my own
> involvement with the group and speak up even
> thought I'd been away from the school for quite
> sometime. I have no idea if things are getting
> worse there or if people are finally feeling
> empowered enough to speak up against it, but I
> hope others continue to share, knowing they are
> not alone and that their sharing helps those who
> actually do their research before joining such
> groups, and perhaps even cause people who are
> current students to reevaluate their own
> involvement with such an abusive group.
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2022 04:07AM by mesche.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: orangegrl ()
Date: February 28, 2022 04:46AM

I agree mesche - looking back at my time in Clairvision and how my behaviors changed while I was there and some of the things I did to other students that includes many of the things others have highlighted in earlier posts - pushing people too hard in IST, being aggressive in interactions with other students thinking it would help them move through something in their process, being cruel because if felt like it was "in the space", etc...I look back and think, "would I have done that before I entered the Clairvision school?" and the answer is almost always, no. I see how I allowed myself to be steeped in the cruel culture of Clairvision and how I acted out towards people who were supposed to be my fellow seekers and even friends. I feel some regret about this, but I'm trying to have compassion for myself since I've seen how the CV indoctrination process works and how I got hooked into it. I've had to take alot of responsibility for my actions...some other former students I have apologized to...and some who are still students... well, perhaps part of me wants to apologize, but it feels like anyone who's still a part of the school wouldn't "get it" if I did, so I haven't really tried. I also saw alot of really questionable things happen between students or between students and leaders in the school that raised my hackles and made me think I wanted to say something, but I also did not. I attribute that to the "social proof" weapon of influence that Robert Cialdini outlines so brilliantly in his book. Basically, we as humans tend to defer to what the majority of the other humans are doing around us when we don't know what to do. I see now how that happened multiple times to me at Clairvision retreats...I wanted to speak up but didn't because it seemed like whatever I had a problem with was "acceptable" to everyone else around me. I thought (or was led to believe) there was something wrong with ME for thinking the person being abused, yelled at, etc needed help - it was MY samskara that needed to be dealt with because I was having a reaction to someone being hurt. Here's a video where Robert Cialdini explains this concept of social proof: [www.youtube.com]


I lost alot of friends I previously had outside of CV because of my buying into the CV culture as the way for "real" spiritual seekers, and even some connections to my family. There's been alot of rebuilding of relationships that I've had to do because of my poor actions and words while I was a part of the school. I had someone recently accuse me of being abusive towards them, and I really had to take a step back and look at that. When I did, I could see how the CV programming was still somewhat working in me even these years later. I don't believe that spiritual growth has to come with abusiveness, but in Clairvision, it's standard, even expected and encouraged.


mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've had to take a hard look at my own involvement
> in the school as well. There was abuse I didn't
> have the courage to adress or report. A woman was
> knocked out and I didn't call the police because I
> was gaslighted so hard I couldn't think but
> honestly also because I was so scared of being
> kicked out. Was I abusive myself? Why did I
> believe it when others told all there was ever
> wrong with the school was people like me? Why did
> I belive jungian or freudian psychology could tell
> me the truth about myself just because som jerk
> pulled it out of his ass to pursuade me I secretly
> wanted all sorts of horrible stuff to happen? That
> stunt was pulled on others as well. Like the ones
> who did so many sessions they believed their
> debilitating anxiety of thinking bad thoughts was
> about some deeply buried desire about wanting to
> do evil.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: orangegrl ()
Date: March 24, 2022 05:33AM

I came across a post by corboy in another thread that is very relevant to this discussion about Clairvision. I'm posting the bit that is most relevant here, but if you want to read the whole thread, it is here: [forum.culteducation.com]

I wish I had known more about abuse in psychotherapy circles and much of the information in this article before I got involved with Clairvision - these are the kind of things they try to twist around on you at Clairvision - it's "normal" or "just part of The Work" if your IST practitioner hurts you or does something that would be considered unethical in "traditional" (aka regulated) psychotherapy. I was kinda blown away when I read this post as to how much it applies to Clairvision... so in hopes that this helps anyone else going through the pain of leaving, or thinking about leaving (or perhaps not joining in the first place...) I'm reposting:

"Many years ago, Temerlin published some journal articles on features of psychotherapy cults. He and his co authors went undercover to observer various groups.

This article, published by Temerlin in 1982 is one of the earliest articles on psychotherapy cults and remains one of the best. It is all the more remarkable because here, Temerlin investigated situations in which practicing psychotherapists themselves became entangled in psychotherapeutic cults.

[psycnet.apa.org]



Psychotherapy cults: An iatrogenic perversion.
Temerlin, Maurice K.; Temerlin, Jane W. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research & Practice, Vol 19(2), Sum 1982, 131-141. doi: 10.1037/h0088425

Abstract

"Conducted clinical observations of 5 teachers of psychotherapy and 26 of their patients, who themselves were practicing psychotherapists, which showed that psychotherapy may be misused to produce cults.

It is suggested that these psychotherapists produced cults by failing to maintain professional boundaries with their patients.

They treated their friends, students, lovers, relatives, employees, and colleagues and brought them together to form cohesive, psychologically incestuous groups of which they were the leader.

They did not consider their patients' idealization of them to be a transference, to be understood as part of the treatment, but used it to encourage submission, obedience, and adoration, as in religious cults.

Patients became "true believers," as described by E. Hoffer (1951), with totalistic patterns of thought, increased dependence, and paranoia. Both therapist and patients became trapped in a closed system that encouraged mutual exploitation and corruption. (48 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)"



In short, the students or patients were shifted from democratic, evidence based thinking into True Believer thinking--to benefit a needy leader.

Temerlin noted also that none of the groups had a clean and clear fee for service arrangement.

Here are some posts up on the message board referring to Temerlin and other people's publications.

[forum.culteducation.com]

More recent material has been written on the subject of psychotherapy cults by Margaret Singer.

This entire message board has been up and running for 9 years and is searchable. The way to do it is to select the 'all dates' option so that all 9 years are covered in the search.

What is difficult is that one has to learn a lot about how ethical therapists maintain boundaries, and thats something a lot of us are not told. Its different with sports.

Many people watch baseball and know the rules, even if they have never been ball players themselves. That means even most spectators are well aware if someone is breaking the rules. If the umpire fails to function, you can bet that the people in the stands, the news commentators and journalists will all yell 'Foul!'

But because its done behind closed doors and because many counselees dont know the rules real therapists go by, they cant tell if someone is tossing foul balls.

Here is a full article describing one such psychotherapy cult in which theapists and clients were members.

An former member of a psychotherapy cult and an ttorney who later represented one of the clients is quoted as saying:


"One of the things you have to remember is that this is not just a random group of people,'' Diane points out. "Almost everyone got into it because they sought out counseling, and most of the people sought counseling because their families were dysfunctional. These were not people whose lives had been great and then suddenly they lost their job. The self-esteem has been eroded, belief systems were always a little bit shaky, norms are a little bit shaky. For me, I always had feelings of needing a family, wanting a family. So you find your way into counseling and what seems like a family, a wonderful family."

All of which makes people in therapeutic communities like this one particularly vulnerable to what the cult literature calls "thought reform" -- the subtle and gradual remaking of a group's understanding of the world. John Winer, a lawyer who specializes in psychological malpractice, puts it this way: "If the patient is being encouraged to act like a child, they really are like a child -- a child with an abusive parent. Most of the patients that have been abused by therapists had been abused as children. They've lost the ability to recognize abusive situations. They're sitting ducks."



THe above is a tiny quote from a much longer and quite excellent article, which can be read here. Had that article not been published in a small circulation, local newspaper in the pre-Internet age, no one would ever have known about this.

[The article mentioned is no longer accessible via the link previously provided]


Corboy note: A sitting duck is a mother duck who is, by instinct, unable to leave her nest because she is sitting upon eggs or young nestlings. She feels fear when aware of the hunter, but is kept there by maternal instinct. She is glued to the spot.

The ancient rules of sportsmanship forbid killing a nesting/sitting bird for that reason--their instinct keeps them from being able to make a quick and free decision to flee.

Human beings, in transferance to a therapist or guru are similarly chained. Their agency is hampered, in this case by the crisis that led them to seek counseling and by the transferance trust placed in the therapist or guru. .

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