mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a lot of information to look for out
> there. I have very bad experiences with providing
> scientific explanations to students of the school
> and won't do that again. Seeing is believing,
> right? I suggest you search for scientific
> articles about whatever type of experience you
> would like to know more about.
>
> I have for instance looked into research on how
> cults and cult leaders manipulate, what prolonged
> eye contact can do and what type of people might
> be more vulnerable to it, what the power of
> suggestion is and how it influences our memories.
> Brainwashing and past life therapy too. And a lot
> more. It has been a very interesting and
> liberating journey for me. For others it might be
> very upsetting.
>
> If you need a place to start, looking up past life
> therapy in Wikipedia might be interesting.
>
> I cherish some of the spiritual experiences I had
> in the school even though I think there are very
> human explanations to them. They don't have to be
> devine to be valuable or part of my lifes story.
> But I won't subject myself to the work in any form
> anymore.
>
>
>
> oneclickwonder Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I actually tend to believe that there is a
> > spiritual level to reality and have tended to
> > before my time at CV. I found the experience of
> > seeing purple lights and vibration in the eye
> to
> > be intense as I did with a number of other
> > techniques from the school.
> >
> > I'm not sure what scientific explanations
> people
> > have for the experiences I have had but I would
> > like to hear more about that.


fair enough. ill give it a look. I don't really feel like anything they taught at CV is true. I just know those exercises produced SOMETHING. now what that something is and whether or not those experiences have anything to do with anything spiritual is another matter all together.

and hey, it could all have been hallucinations designed by a very skilled master of subliminal suggestion... though that would have to be one hell of a trick to pull. I mean I tried this stuff out of the awakening third eye book, so no music in the background and no real deep trances induced by an IST practitioner or drugs in the water at the 101 when I first started experiencing results.



I still to this day wonder what produced those results...

metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oneclickwonder Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I actually tend to believe that there is a
> > spiritual level to reality and have tended to
> > before my time at CV. I found the experience of
> > seeing purple lights and vibration in the eye
> to
> > be intense as I did with a number of other
> > techniques from the school.
> >
> > I'm not sure what scientific explanations
> people
> > have for the experiences I have had but I would
> > like to hear more about that.
>
>
> This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, and I
> noticed it in the CV practitioners I met as
> well--sure, you might see purple lights and feel
> vibrations, but so what? One of the CV
> practitioners talked about seeing sacred
> geometries while meditating. That's lovely, but
> she seemed to attribute meaning to it, when the
> vast majority of meditation approaches I've been
> exposed to explicitly discourage indulging or
> attaching to experiences like that--they're not
> intrinsically a sign of development or that things
> are going well. I feel like there is this tendency
> to say 'well I saw colors, etc. etc. so this must
> be the real deal,' but there are all kinds of
> perceptual and energetic experiences that can
> happen that don't have anything to do with
> enlightenment (if you buy into that idea at all).
> Zen even has a term for them--'makyo' and students
> are explicitly encouraged to pay no attention to
> them.
>
> I got the impression that there was a lot of
> spiritual ego going on as a result of these
> experiences--feeling like CV was superior to most
> other approaches, a sense of having special powers
> or abilities, etc.

ya, I agree with what you've said here.

I feel that there were many who attributed meaning to the things they saw or felt and that it was quite common... with no rhyme or reason at all.


PLEASE NOTE THAT I NEVER SAID THE EXTOLLED RESULTS OF THE EXERCISES OR CLIAMS BY THE SCHOOL ARE TRUE. just wanted to put that out there.

also, in contrast to that possible assumption, not that I suspect anyone here was making it, I have doubts about the school as well and particularly find the comment about spiritual ego to be very true.

Thanks for that additional explanation, mesche, that helps me understand a bit more what you're saying


metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got the impression that there was a lot of
> spiritual ego going on as a result of these
> experiences--feeling like CV was superior to most
> other approaches, a sense of having special powers
> or abilities, etc.


I found this to be absolutely true in the Clairvision school - huge amounts of elitism. Huge feelings of superiority, feeling like they knew the best and only way to look at things, the way they are doing things is so special and could not possibly be reproduced or replicated or explained to the commoner. You are special if you get to be in the Clairvision school. Spiritual narcissism at its finest.

It's worth noting that a lot of people find their way into the Clairvision school via Karen Kingston, who has a bit of her own cult following and massive elitist attitude about herself. I felt like people in the Clairvision school (and many who were not in the school as well) treated her as much like a guru as they did Samuel.

I admit I was one of the people who hopped on the bandwagon and took some of Karen Kingston's clutter clearing courses back in the day. I had thought her books were good, but I was really unimpressed with her courses. She holds herself up to be this amazing expert in the field, but I really got more out of courses with certified professional organizers than I did with Kingston. The way she taught her courses it was like her way or the highway, which is really not helpful when it comes to time management and other clutter clearing. Although she's done it for years, I don't feel like Karen Kingston is the big expert she claims to be.

I had a friend in the CV school who did the courses at the same time I did. She had wanted to take the clutter clearer training with Kingston and said the course seemed more like you were paying to audition for Kingston's approval to move forward rather than the course itself being helpful. My friend was ultimately rejected from the training because she was "too fat". She was a bit overweight (but definitely not obese), and this seemed like a weird elitist thing from Kingston as well because my friend met all the qualifications required.

I think it's interesting that Kingston claims to have coined the term "space clearing" but one of Kingston's teachers, Denise Linn, also claims to have coined the term.

Last I knew Kingston still required people to go through years of Clairvision training before she will train them for her clutter clearing and space clearing techniques, even though I don't believe she's been active in the Clairvision school since around the time Samuel died.

Fair warning to not take Karen Kingston's word as an expert on much, or at least seriously question what she puts forward in addition to what the CV school puts out. I've seen these same abusive behaviors that are referenced above coming from Karen Kingston's clutter clearers and space clearers as well... They are not exempt from acting out in ways described above.

grok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for that additional explanation, mesche,
> that helps me understand a bit more what you're
> saying
>
>
> metanoia Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I got the impression that there was a lot of
> > spiritual ego going on as a result of these
> > experiences--feeling like CV was superior to
> most
> > other approaches, a sense of having special
> powers
> > or abilities, etc.
>
>
> I found this to be absolutely true in the
> Clairvision school - huge amounts of elitism.
> Huge feelings of superiority, feeling like they
> knew the best and only way to look at things, the
> way they are doing things is so special and could
> not possibly be reproduced or replicated or
> explained to the commoner. You are special if you
> get to be in the Clairvision school. Spiritual
> narcissism at its finest.


Good to know that this seems systemic rather than an isolated experience on my end.

To most of you in here it might not be a surprice.

Colors, sounds, shapes, feelings, silence, agitation, energetic movements, feeling expanded, warm, cold, feeling traumas emerging, grief, joy, feeling a benevolent presence and so on. Even experiencing nothing at all. There is nothing unusual about any of it but I didn't know that until I met students of other schools of meditation.

I thought I was protected by a unique archive space because of the experiences and the explanations for them. It felt nice and safe for a while.

For a long time I didn't think it would be a good idea to look into other peoples experiences, I wonder who gave me that idea because normally I am very curious about how stuff works.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2021 09:55PM by mesche.

Something else that I recently remembered that seemed a bit fishy about the Clairvision School and Samuel Sagan that seems worth posting here - Samuel Sagan was not his given birth name. I heard his given name once a long time ago, and I can't remember what it was, only that it was very French sounding.

I don't know exactly when or why (for real) he changed his name, but the reason I heard for it was so it would be easier for him to fit in after moving to an English speaking country, his given name was too French-sounding or foreign to appeal to a wider audience as a spiritual teacher. I remember asking again one time about what his given name was and the senior student wouldn't tell me, it was something Clairvision wanted kept hush hush apparently, like it was a big secret.

When I remembered this it made me wonder if Samuel Sagan's medical degree was awarded in his given name or under Samuel Sagan, and if he was ever licensed or just completed a degree. Are the credentials of the founder of the Clairvision school over-inflated the same way they seem to over-inflate the training level of their IST practitioners like was highlighted in an earlier post?

When speaking to a psychologist about some of my experiences with the Clairvision school, he pointed out to me that it's very suspicious that Samuel and people in the school claim that he just "let his medical license expire". It takes years and years of training, not to mention the financial investment, to get a medical license, and most people who attain such a license will do whatever they need to in order to keep it, it's incredibly difficult and expensive to get it reinstated should it lapse. The psychologist told me it's rare for someone to actually let their license expire, it's more likely that it was taken away for some reason. I wish there was a way I could confirm what really happened with Sagan's medical license and claims of training in the medical field.

Since I don't speak French or know much about how to look those kind of things up in French records it seems like an impossible task, but if anyone else has that proficiency and can tell us what Samuel Sagan's given birth name was and/or any other information about the validity of the medical license and reason it went away I think that would be information worth knowing - I'm starting to doubt that anything Clairvision said about what really goes on there was true, including the credentials that Samuel Sagan claims to have had.

According to the Clairvision website, Samuel Sagan was born 18 July 1957, 1:27pm in Paris, France. He attended medical school at the Paris Faculty of Medicine and Sanskrit at Censier Sorbonne Nouvelle University. The Clairvision school was founded in Australia in 1987, so I would guess he changed it before he moved there - likely in the 80's in France. In case that's helpful to anyone who's able/willing to investigate this further.

If anyone knows more about this please let us know. If posting publicly isn't your thing, you can always send me a pm instead. Thanks for your help

Interesting! Worth looking into. I sent a message to the alumni network at Universite de Paris asking if they can verify whether someone is a graduate or not; hopefully they will respond.

I really appreciate everything people have shared here in the last several months, it's given me a lot to think about (and talk about with a therapist frankly) as I realize I didn't really process the fact that I had been in a cult until long after I left Clairvision.

Nobody "joins a cult" knowingly. It's all about the deception and manipulation of the truth in the beginning, something Clairvision does very effectively, and I fell for it. I was in a vulernable state of mind when I found them and desparately wanted to believe in something. A perfect pawn it seems now.


Another couple sketchy things that have come up during this process for me:

On the Clairvision website (https://clairvision.org/about-us/samuel-sagan-facts.html), they claim Samuel Sagan "also completed a Master of Sacred Science, and a Doctorate of Divinity from the International Gnostic church."

Try doing an internet search for the International Gnostic church - it doesn't exist, and it seems that it never did (meaning it didn't change it's name to something else over time). To me this means these credentials are completely made up.



To the Australian government, the CV school claims Clairvision IS a religious organization, but in courses and on their websites they vehemently deny Clairvision has anything to do w/ being a religion.

Directly from their website (https://clairvision.org.au/):

"With the emphasis on direct perception, the school is not affiliated with any religion. It is open to people of all backgrounds."

In it's charity registration with the Australian government, Clairvision states:

"We provide weekly religious practice meetings, including meditation. We conduct weekly religious instruction and practice groups (three nights a week). This includes exploring principles and conducting practices of esoteric Christianity including meditation. We conduct weekend religious instruction workshops and longer retreats."

I got this from:

[www.acnc.gov.au]

To me, this is just more proof Clairvision will say anything they need to, whether it's true or not, in order to further their organization.

I got almost raped at clairvision. I was touched physically without my permission by an IST practitioner in a session which violated my boundaries of consent, boundaries that I clearly stated before the session to the teacher and practitioner.

I don't know if I'm safe to say this, I don't know if they'll be able to track me because I'm the only victim, I don't know if they'll blackmail me because of the private things that I said in the LISt sessions that I did with them.

I don't know if I'll ever be safe.

maybe they'll fuck me over because of the things I said here, maybe my life will get fucked because of it. I don't know, but I do know that Hiram raped the 16 year old Virginia and murdered her in Bleeding Sun before he practically married her in the afterlife with her father's permission and that Dwarkanath Tagore maried "the nine years old but extremely good-looking Digambari Devi."

and if that doesn't sound like rape of a child then I don't know what to say to you...

I was a young woman when I went to clairvision

LB_Slayer

Thanks for your bravery in coming forward with this, I know how you feel about the threat of being blackmailed or having your life torn apart (maybe again) by Clairvision and their BS - it took me a long time to come around to posting here as well.... but as anyone reading this thread can see over the last year or so, more people are coming forward - you're certainly not the only person who something this terrible has happened to in Clairvision. Because there have been so many violations, I hope at least that your identity is somewhat protected from those who might want to hurt you in order to further their own cause.

Last year I heard from an old "friend" (or at least someone I used to know pretty well) from CV who told me her own story of what had happened to her ath the hands her own IST practitioner that made me need to seriously revisit my own involvement with the group and speak up even thought I'd been away from the school for quite sometime. I have no idea if things are getting worse there or if people are finally feeling empowered enough to speak up against it, but I hope others continue to share, knowing they are not alone and that their sharing helps those who actually do their research before joining such groups, and perhaps even cause people who are current students to reevaluate their own involvement with such an abusive group.



LB_Slayer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got almost raped at clairvision. I was touched
> physically without my permission by an IST
> practitioner in a session which violated my
> boundaries of consent, boundaries that I clearly
> stated before the session to the teacher and
> practitioner.
>
> I don't know if I'm safe to say this, I don't know
> if they'll be able to track me because I'm the
> only victim, I don't know if they'll blackmail me
> because of the private things that I said in the
> LISt sessions that I did with them.
>
> I don't know if I'll ever be safe.
>
> maybe they'll fuck me over because of the things I
> said here, maybe my life will get fucked because
> of it. I don't know, but I do know that Hiram
> raped the 16 year old Virginia and murdered her in
> Bleeding Sun before he practically married her in
> the afterlife with her father's permission
> and that Dwarkanath Tagore maried "the nine years
> old but extremely good-looking Digambari Devi."
>
> and if that doesn't sound like rape of a child
> then I don't know what to say to you...
>
> I was a young woman when I went to clairvision