for colter:

[www.psychoheresy-aware.org]

before you turn to scripture to defend AA maybe you should read this.

I have cut the flaming and preaching out from recent posts, which is against the rules.

Preaching religion would include repeatedly quoting scripture and urging a religious point of view upon members of the board.

What Vince's recent links demonstrate is that AA has both critics that think it is too religious and those that seem to feel it is not religious enough.

Interesting.

Please understand vince that Margaret Singer would not agree with your application of her work concerning AA. Dr. Singer did not consider AA a "cult" and never opined otherwise, nor did she apply thought reform techniques to AA.

Robert Jay Lifton, the author of "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" likewise has not stated that AA uses thought reform, that I am aware of.

So you may offer your opinions, but they have no basis agreed upon by the authors you quote.

You offered a link to L. Allen Ragels paper "Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?"

Ragels like others quoted by anti-AA critics on the Internet, is not a recognized cult expert and has no meaningful standing in that area of study.

Again, no recognized cult expert has ever labeled AA a "cult" that I am aware of.

Nothing has been offered by a credible expert in the field of thought reform ("brainwashing") either that names AA, other than fractured quotes taken out of context from a book by Edgar Schein, which appeared to be used in a deliberately misleading way.

andychee seems upset that I have suggested there are more appropriate message boards than this one for anti-AA people to post at.

Sorry andy but there it is.

A "Cult Education Forum" is not the place for everyone to post anything about whatever. It is instead focused on a primary subject with a list of related topics.

This board does have its parameters, rules and limits.

FYI--Quite a few posts don't get moderated through for this reason from would-be spammers that want to rant about subjects not related to those specified at this board.

BTW--unapproved posts has included anti-military war protestors, various political types, racists, self-promotional efforts and advertisers.

If this board were not moderated it would be filled with unrelated posts and spam that would make it increasingly difficult to use.

Quote
vince
for colter:

[www.psychoheresy-aware.org]

before you turn to scripture to defend AA maybe you should read this.

Vince,
Thank you for the link, I had read that before. I've been studying AA history throughout my 21 years of continuous sobriety (thanks to AA).

AA is not Christianity. I've read books written by Christian AA members who try to dove tail AA with the institution of the Christian church via Shoemocker more than Buckman, they fail in my opinion.

I think that Christians who first get sober in AA then return to their Church attempt to solve the dilemma of Christian teachings and the apparent conflict with the "generic" God concept of AA by linking the two.

I have a link for you that you may find interesting regarding successes rates in AA and why contemporary AA seem to be less effective then in the past.

[members.tripod.com]

Colter

Quote

andychee seems upset that I have suggested there are more appropriate message boards than this one for anti-AA people to post at.

by rr moderator

I'm not upset, I just wonder what the big deal is with AA? There are lots of stuff being talked about here and nobody gets all riled up about any thing but AA. If I said my dad quit herbalife because the were bad no one would try to make me shut up about it. And herbalife isnt a cult, not by a long shot. Its less of a cult than AA, and as far as I can tell herbalife and mary kay and a lot of others dont even have anything to do with religion or god, and AA does.

andychee:

We seem to be going over the same ground over and over again.

The point is relevant information concerning the subjects and topics included at this message board.

It is a "Cult Education Forum" for those interested in discussing groups called "cults," "cult-like" groups and the manipulative techniques they may employ.

AA doesn't fit within that spectrum.

I don't receive such complaints from families about AA. And I have been around a long time.

On the other hand Herbalife does generate a steady stream of complaints, not to mention litigation and bad press.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Is that clear enough?

Are there any "experts" on cults? What is the criteria for being an expert besides claiming that you are one and that your detractors are not?

One objective way of measuring expertise is by being qualified in court. This is a process that allows an opposing side to challenge the expert's qualifications and ultimately a judge decides if that person is an expert and should be admitted in court for expert testimony.

Repeated qualification and admission as an expert in court is an implicit and official acknowledgement of person's expertise in an area of study.

Court qualification and subsequent expert testimony then becomes a matter of record.

Other meaningful recognition would be by institutions of higher learning such as colleges and universities, requesting that an expert speak/lecture on their given area of expertise.

Still further acknowledgement would be through the media (e.g. network television, major newspapers and publications) relying on an expert repeatedly for analysis related to a specific area of study.

There may be documentaries featuring or quoting the expert regarding his or her expertise.

When you see the mainstream media repeatedly quoting and relying upon the same expert over a period of years, this is compelling evidence that the expert is well-known and thought reliable.

Most experts have worked professionally in their area for number of years. Typically, the longer someone works in an area the more experience and expertise they may have.

Some cult experts like Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich have published books on the subject of cults.

Singer, the most prominent cult expert of the 20th Century, worked in the closely related field of psychology as both a professor and clinical psychologist.

Lalich continues to teach as a professor of sociology.

Paul Martin, a well-known cult expert, has worked as a clinical psychologist at Wellspring Retreat for many years. Wellspring is a licensed mental health facility, which is focused on helping former cult members in recovery.

Cult experts have historically been drawn from the fields of mental health, sociology, communication (e.g. Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman authors of "Snapping") and the law.

For example noted attorney Ford Greene has litigated against well-known groups called "cults" such as the Unification Church and Scientology.

Some cult experts first learned about cults as cult members and then became involved in the field as "deprogrammers."

Others started out responding to cults or "cult-like" groups through community efforts and social action (e.g. committee work, commissions etc.).

Various people came to be cult experts through different experiences, but ultimately were recognized for their work after a period of years.

It has been suggested "Why don't you lock this thread down"?

Seems like a good idea, as nothing new is being added, but rather the repetition of previous opinions/comments already made.

Now is the time for anything new to be added to this thread by anyone interested, as it is slated to be locked down soon.

I just wanted to thank you Rick for providing this forum and ably navigating through the maze of points and counter points.

I'm off to "trudge the road to happy destiny". So long old friends. :D

Colter

Kath, I have shared personal problems I had in XA here, including being asked to find "my part" in a rape.

Rick, I would have reported concerns over 10 years ago if I had known that someone would listen. I had a friend who had been through a 12 step "pain clinic" after recovering from a shot in the back in Vietnam, and took his life because he was told over and over again that to take a simple codiene #3, prescribed, was bad and wrong, the whole time spouting out "slogans" from the 12 step program. His severe spinal pain became too much for him. There is nothing worse than talking to someone who is contemplating suicide when the cure for their problems is right at their fingertips and then reading the next day he pulled out a gun and put it to his head. His suicide note was explicit, he was not depressed but he could not take the physical pain anymore.

Everyone I told about these stories told me that it didn't matter because, well, everyone in XA is faulty going into. What's the worst that they will get from the group? If they leave their wives etc. well, at least they are now clean.

That, I feel, is one reason why XA is exempted from complaints.