If I understand correctly "thought reform" and "brainwashing" are terms that you use interchangeably, I also understand that you regard Margaret Singer as an cult authority. I quoted from her book the excerpt on your web-site,

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The tactics of a thought-reform program are organized to:

Destabilize a person's sense of self,

Get the person to drastically reinterpret his or her life's history and radically alter his or her worldview and accept a new version of reality and causality,

Develop in the person a dependence on the organization, and thereby turn the person into a deployable agent of the organization.

and then made an abbreviated correlation between what happens in AA and the tactics she describes as "brainwashing". The only thing you could possibly question is my interpretation of the process AA uses to ensnare people because the other things come directly from your site. I am confident that further investigation would confirm my findings. If you ask 10 people that were successfully brainwashed and 10 that weren't brainwashed I bet you would get a 50% agreement with me, doing what you do for a living I'm sure you know that those that get sucked in can never see it for what it is or they would have avoided it. I believe a neutral person who went to an AA meeting and feigned being in a crisis and put on the desperate airs would confirm all of this.

It seems to me this field of "cult study" is very subjective and that getting AA classified as a cult is more a matter of opinion than anything based upon empirical data. According to information available on your web-site I easily made the connection between AA's recruitment tactics and "brainwashing" or "thought reform", which is #2 on Robert Lifton's list of 3 characteristics of a cult. Bill Wilson is their venerated (although very dead) guru, and they harm people by "brainwashing" them into thinking their continuous involvement in AA is the only thing that will "save" them.

vince:

You are misusing Margaret Singer's work for your own agenda.

Dr. Singer didn't consider AA a "cult" and would not agree with your opinions about the organization.

Again, perhaps you should move on to a board that deals with AA rather than a "Cult Education Forum."

I don't get it. Why are you so worried about people talking about the cult like stuff that AA does. This is the cult education forum, right? A lot of people think AA does some stuff that are like what cults do. Mary Kay must too, And Anti black hate groups. Some people think the military does some cult like stuff. You say they're not cults either. But i don't see you always trying to tell them they should only talk about it on anti military web sites. Why is it such a big deal because its AA they want to talk about?

Mr. Orange,

The sheer volume of deceptive half truths posted on your web site, combined with the characteristic chip on your shoulder lead me to conclude from the outset that at present you are neither reachable nor teachable.

Colter, you claim to believe in the bible.
I think that ne of the most important things it says is Judge not lest ye be judged.

Bad stuff happens in AA and I dont think anybody should have to keep their mouth shut about it.

It might achieve more than this intellectual stalemate, and be a more compelling read, if Orange and others who have had a negative [b:c8b59cc0ad]personal experience[/b:c8b59cc0ad] of AA could possibly tell us a little of what happened to them.

I appreciate that you may not feel comfortable being completely open but maybe you could share whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

For myself I only went to one AA meeting and I explained my experience earlier in the thread- it boiled down to my not finding it beneficial to be told how 'wrong' I was on a repeated basis.

Personally it would have been more beneficial for me to receive counselling that boosted my self-esteem. My drinking stopped when a medication I was taking for a mood disorder was altered for one that suited me better.

I hope others feel they can share a little,
Love
Kath

As for Orange not being teachable – I think we can all see he has worked very hard using the very methods used by respected educational institutions – he is far from teachable indeed, he is learned. That said, even Orange himself has encouraged me when I have had doubts over his work, which I can prove. When I doubted his numbers for the success rate in AA he was not offended, and in fact encouraged me to continue to question these things until I understood how he had reached these figures. AA does not do that, it tells us to “take the cotton wool out of our ears and stick it in our mouths!”


J a m e s G

All I did was apply her definitions to a group and they fit. I'm obviously swimming against the tide here.

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Again, perhaps you should move on to a board that deals with AA rather than a "Cult Education Forum."

Ok, I'll go back where I came from.

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andychee
Colter, you claim to believe in the bible.
I think that ne of the most important things it says is Judge not lest ye be judged.
Its up to God to decide who is evil and who is not, by what our bible teaches, and the reason wh have orginal sin is because Adam and Eve decided they could say what was bad or good better than what God decided.
If saying bad stuff happens in a means youre evil, then to you I am evil too because a lot of bad stuff happens in AA and I dont think any body should have to keep their mouth shut about it just because you think you can say who is good and who is evil.
A lot of bad stuff goes on in AA and I am not going to say it doesnt ether.

Hi Andychee,

Mr Orange is misleading people in a determined, coordinated and deceptive way. The morality of any act is determined by the motive of the individual. I'm not judging his soul, I repudiating his efforts to lead people away from getting help in AA by a smear campaign unmatched by any that I have ever come across.

My post to him leaves ample room for him to consider what he is doing and who he may hurt.

I'm giving Mr Orange the benefit of the doubt, that he does this out of ignorance.

Colter

[www.csudh.edu]

here's the smoking gun you've been looking for.