What does that have to do with what I just wrote?

There are predators in AA, and newcomers are told to surrender, and to trust the other AA members.

Women get preyed upon more than men.

What does what I wrote have to do with cults, the opinions of those who have written here, or belief in God?

I don't know about where you are getting your information, but the newcomers are generally told that "That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism." That would include other members of AA as well. It's not a tenet of AA for anyone to blindly follow another human being.

You also might consider that even though the women in question might need help, they are in fact far worse off not doing anything about their problem.

When I see a newcomer woman, I generally assume that they have been raped and beaten during their drinking. Taking their chances in a bar or in an abusive relationship is a formula for disaster. Taking a chance in an AA meeting is probably quite a bit safer than the alternative. Alcoholism directly accounts for around 125,000 deaths per year in the U.S. and that does not include murders, accidents or suicides. The statistics are skewed by social mores against citing anything related to alcohol as a cause of death, so you can see that the actual rates might be considerably higher.

Alcohol related traffic deaths are the leading cause of death amongst the 15-24 year old age group, a good proportion of which could be considered to have been caused by early and middle stage alcoholics.

Something needs to be done...

If anyone is worried about being preyed upon at an AA meeting, check out [www.recovery.org] where you can find a womens meeting that could be very helpful in avoiding any chance of being preyed upon by some sick SOB (that might need a lot of help outside of AA...maybe starting with a hefty dose of Thorazine.) The next alternative is checking out an open meeting and bringing along a friend that can help keep the wolves at bay.

There are also a number of online resources where you can chat or get on an email list to get a feel as to whether AA is for you or not. There is also The Grapevine magazine that can be suscribed to from AA national headquarters.

One other thing, if anyone ever pressures you into buying a book or any other liturature, think about finding another group to join. A Big Book should cost about $5 and often we give them away to newcomers. (Trust me, they make great doorstops. :P ) Pamphlets can also be had for free.

Finally, we don't recruit. If we did, you'd find us outside bars screeming at people to "Let go and LET GOD!" or even better [b:3c41aec51f]"EASY DOES IT!"[/b:3c41aec51f] It ain't happening people...

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barabara
What does that have to do with what I just wrote?

[b:460439451a]There are predators in AA, and newcomers are told to surrender, and to trust the other AA members.[/b:460439451a]

Women get preyed upon more than men.

What does what I wrote have to do with cults, the opinions of those who have written here, or belief in God?

No, that's not true at least not in any of the thousands of AA meetings that I've been to.

You have mischaracterized the program. We are not told to surrender and [u:460439451a]trust other members of the program.[/u:460439451a] The [b:460439451a]context [/b:460439451a]of surrender relates to depending upon God to stay sober. For those who have an issue with God then AA recommends relying on the "group" [b:460439451a]to stay sober[/b:460439451a] not psychologically surrendering to some kind of individual horny AA members.

I find it ironic that alcoholics who spend their lives in bars and/or with dubious moraly lax individuals would be concerned about "horny" people at an AA meeting.

There are women only meetings for the irresistibly beautiful to go to.

You missed my since of humor in may last post. :roll:



Colter

I have read the numerous posts that contradict what the pro-AA members have to say.

I have also read the GSO reports pertaining to promotion of AA and NA through the courts and rehab centers.

I have many years of experience with AA members, female and male, who related to me what what said and done to them in AA meetings.

I have seen the deterioration of these members, firsthand. Several were close family members of mine. Some marraiges were broken. Children were neglected. Functioning alcoholics and addicts became non-functional during their involvement in AA.

Yes, initially there was improvement, as the substance abuse ended.

The subsequent deterioration of confidence and the adoption of rote thinking patterns, as well as the tendency to think of themselves as sick, sick, sick, led these members to years of substandard performance and mental health.
They became very unstable, but insisted on relying upon the AA group, although family and therapists advised against it because of predation.

I watched these members quit AA, rally, regain faith in themselves, and watched as their lives returned to pre AA levels, minus substance abuse.

I listen to what these people still have to say about AA.
They tell me it is a cult, and they will not go to meetings, or to a bar.
The family is very relieved to have all of its members back on track, not spouting slogans, applying for SSI, and going to three AA or NA meetings a day with every shady character in town.

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barabara

I have many years of experience with AA members, female and male, who related to me what what said and done to them in AA meetings.

I have seen the deterioration of these members, firsthand. Several were close family members of mine. Some marraiges were broken. Children were neglected. Functioning alcoholics and addicts became non-functional during their involvement in AA.

First off, I have seen exactly what you are talking about as well. AA is not a panacea and too many members end up selling theirs lives short by trying to make it one. You have to show up in your life for AA to really be working, neglecting responsibilities is not part of the program. It's not enough to talk the talk, you have to work it to make it work. As bad as it may look to you, the chances are pretty good that the children would be neglected, marriages ruined and lives lost if the drinking were to continue.

AA is not able to excommunicate the bad apples either, we lack the authority to do that. If we could, then we might be too much like a cult.

My biggest axe to grind within AA is that too often it looks way too much like a social club and does not have enough concern for the newcomer. Then there are the AA gurus that could stand a little humility added to their program.

One other point of confusion that seems to be prevalent, going to 2 or 3 meetings a day is a bit much. A typical long term member with good quality sobriety may hit 4-5 a month or maybe 2-3 a week. The early members back in the 30s went to 1 a week if they could and they could go months without one if life took them to places where they could not find one.

There are also alternative treatments out there as well. As I have mentioned, the Naltrexone should give a lot of people hope and when it was approved back in 94, it should have made headlines. But here it is 12 years later and few people have heard about it. I don't know if could be the equivalent of the Salk vaccine for mental health, but I think it comes pretty close.

AA isn't for everyone, we certainly don't want unwilling participants. If you have an axe to grind, I would suggest taking it up with the people that actually get paid to help people out of an addiction.

When someone tells me they are considering AA, I am always ambiguous about giving them my blessing.
I attempt to tell them what I have learned about the things that go on among AA members, and advise them not to drop their guard, regardless of how loving and friendly everyone might seem.

I think it would prevent a lot of problems if there was an official policy of informing newcomers to AA about the type of activities they might encounter.

I was highly disturbed by Colter's responses to allegations of predation among AA members.
He seems to imply that only those who consider themselves "irresistibly beautiful" are preyed upon. I find that attitude exceptionally immature and uninformed.
Firstly, looks have nothing to do with whether or not someone will consider you "prey". A predator is looking for someone who seems [b:c2d19d923d]vulnerable[/b:c2d19d923d]; a person who is alone, without allies, or someone who has money and is known to be generous or caring.

If physical attractiveness were a prerequisite for sexual predation, only nubile young women and men would get raped.
We have all heard of 70 year old women and 2 year old babies who were victims of violent sexual abuse.

The allegations of predation have not been limited to sexual abuse, either here, or among those I received from family and friends. Much of what I hear has to do with members using newcomers for monetary gain, a place to live, free labor, or just for the sheer joy of having someone vulnerable to lord it over.
I do not wish to belabor this point, but much of what Colter has written makes AA sound like some kind of "Boy's club", where women are "asking for it" just by showing up at meetings, if they are young and pretty.

There certainly seems to be a faction in AA that feels that way. I realize that this is not the whole of AA, but women in particular should use extreme caution, and perhaps avoid entering the "lion's den" altogether.

Why would a woman want to bring a friend to avoid the wolves? Might it not be better to avoid the wolves altogether by avoiding AA?

If getting picked up at an AA meeting is a concern, try out the womens meetings at first.

As I have said before, an AA meeting is probably safer than your average dive.

While AA has no policies, we do have traditions, the only enforcement is the observation that not following the traditions usually spells the end for the group in question.

Barbera,

You may be right I me still be a little immature. I'm not a spokesman for AA nor do we have any, I'm just one person with a lifetime of experience in the program. To me AA is a sacred place. Some of the behaviors that you have described are shameful and a betrayal to AA principles. People who are into that kind of immorality generally don't stay sober.

Over the years I have seen women who have stated publicly that they went to meetings to find guys and I have seen men with some time in the program hitting on newer women. This kind of behavior is in my opinion disgracefully wrong for the simple reason that these new people are vulnerable as you stated. However what is really happening is that members are bringing their old behaviors into the program and if they don't change such behavior they have little chance of staying sober.

Therapists are often unaware of how they get "played" by alcoholics. It's not at all uncommon for councilors to come to the occupation because of their own history of abuse, dysfunctional families even their own undiagnosed alcoholism or drug abuse. The mind of the rationalizing alcoholic is only to eager to find a sympathetic ant-AA therapist. I have personally known 2 practicing alcoholic substance abuse councilors and several other cases of AA members (who never worked the program themselves) that went into the counseling profession to "fix others" while they remained dry and nuts.

Touching on another area of your post where I think there is truth I would like to point some things out. Alcoholics and drug addicted people overdue everything, even 12 step meetings. Some people become obsessed with AA and don't really stick with the simple but hard to complete nature of the program. I have seen and experienced this "fundamentalism" or fanaticism myself. In many AA's this is a passing phase such as someone that gets born again and talks of nothing else but God. All of this is covered in AA's Big Book and 12 +12.

I am quite sorry to here that some of your friends and family members have had such a bad experience with AA. There is no cure for alcoholism. People who tend to rely on self knowledge may be able to stay sober even for years but often go back to drinking or other forms of addictive behavior. This is simply our experience.

Rape is a horrific crime and anyone committing such an act should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I am only aware of one case of rape involving someone actively involved with AA. The guy got drunk after some years of BS-ing his way around the program. In his drunken state he raped his wife and was arrested, prosecuted and served a mandatory 10 year sentence.

When I was referring to "irresistibly beautiful" I was being tongue in cheek kidding . It was a reference to the EGO's of women who use the "their all men" excuse to avoid getting honest with themselves. In my area we have a vigorous female population within AA with long term quality sobriety.

In AA they recommend getting a sponsor for a new person to kind of show them the ropes. Woman should always stick with women and men with men.

Colter

"Picture yourself 5 years down the road after you have gotten the lay of the land, so to speak, and learned how to work your particular group efficiently. "

Ha! What a joke - that just doesn't happen. People in AA are very difficult in fact - they all think they know everything and are special people - they are self-centered ego maniacs working to stay sober. An AAer's favorite subject is self, not someone else. Anyone trying to 'work an AA' group is in for a spiritual awakening - LOL.
Maggie

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maggieblue
"Picture yourself 5 years down the road after you have gotten the lay of the land, so to speak, and learned how to work your particular group efficiently. "

[b:e6e7b86532]Ha! What a joke - that just doesn't happen. People in AA are very difficult in fact - they all think they know everything and are special people - they are self-centered ego maniacs working to stay sober. An AAer's favorite subject is self, not someone else. Anyone trying to 'work an AA' group is in for a spiritual awakening - LOL.[/b:e6e7b86532]
Maggie

LOL!!!! Amen to that sister. :lol: