Fosters,
Thanks for the welcome!
The thing on repeating claims on fear or anger rang true. Very englightening, thank you. I can see a link to the attack therapy here as well.

"Speed seduction!" WTF! Duh...! I have to admitt I am flabbergasted on this one. I read up on it and it does sound just a tad bit cheesy in some of the posts. But when reading deeper into some of the material onlione there is very negative stuff which is disgusting. Guess anything where one treats other people as one's inferior would be. Yuck!

Corboy,
Thanks so much!! These text were very interesting. You are so right. Bullies are weird. Why all the fuss?
I liked the stuff of Sutton and Deborah Gruenfeld the most. And I had to chuckle on the Cookie expeiriment applied to Bush... (laughs)

Oh and I have to confess, the farting could definately be up my alley... lol

Hello.

As a newbie I have to say I like the reasoned structures here.

I can only speak of my group, but I think these groups are highly linked at least through their leaders and employees most of whom have formerly worked in several of the other companies. Probably no wonder they are using the same methods or are even ensnared at other levels.

The lists you provide on the warning signs… Here is how they apply to my group:

1. Authoritarian
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry
3. No real financial disclosure, but buoyant (and false) claims of flashy greatness
4. Paranoia
5. Former followers are downplayed and denigrated
6. Many former followers tell the same negative stories, the apparently “positive” ones are clearly planted (same stereotypical responses)
7. There are clearly negative articles and online threads
8. It was impossible to feel good about myself in this company (I have good self esteem but they gradually tried to push a negative self image, confuse, didn’t respect my refusals or boundaries I claimed)
9. Leaders are posers and always arrogantly portray themselves as right
10. Leaders try to convey they hold the sole and absolute truth, try to stop you from thinking
11. Loss of individualism of team members, stilted, programmed conversations and mannerisms (clones)
12. Critisim is turned against the thinker (blame)
13. Creating intentional dependence through small and big things (usually normal interactions were turned into a set of steps, rules and suppressed needs that were completely outside normal behavior), seeming inability to think and solve issues for themselves, like puppets
14. Hyperactivity around leaders’ agenda, no independent steps and development
15. Anything from the leader can be justified, even manipulation, deceit, humiliation, destruction, corruption, false secrecy, refusal to help, and so on
16. Avoid critical outside voices, don’t interact, shut down critical facility (once new customer criticism arrived, dealing with it proactively was extremely frowned upon, really ridiculous)
17. Questions were evaded and rarely discussed, not answered openly or in a straight manner (the more so time progressed and the net of oppression was pulled more tightly around you)
18. No democratic decision-making, no clear or fair performance indicators, no clear finances or structures, lack of credible registration
19. Family, friends and personal situation were increasingly ridiculed and attempts at undermining (very small steps but by and by visible)
20. Ignored official statements about group, downplayed, no respect for other opinions
21. Increasingly discouraged autonomy and tried to attack self-esteem and worldview intensively
22. Never admitted failings or mistakes, no constructive outlook
23. Increasingly blocked dialogue, exchange of ideas, independent opinions


Thanks for starting this.

I have to admit many of these blokes I was working with were very hostile toward women. I am a bloke but at times I felt very ashamed of what was said. I took to some of the ladies in private but only had the impression that one or two were actually for real. It was all very machismo and a bit like male Stepford wives if you know what I mean. Very role standardised and one-sided. It seemed like normal bloke talk in the beginning but grew out of proportions after a bit albeit unrequested. There were also situaitons where funny turned into unrequested belittling, patronising and outright hostility. A bit of an outhouse in addition to the stilted mind wash.

I'm glad I'm out. And my best wishes to the ladies and anyone kind and with there head and heart in the right spot out there.

I cannot seem to see my posts but I guess it is because their reviewed.

All the illegal things and lying sucked. I am a college grad and at first tried to abide by the rules. I quickly changed that though.

Corboy, I liked the articles!! Thk U

Spuds or Potatoes?

This is what authoritarian types fear the most--people with leadership potential and comedians who elicit snickers and make fun of the Sense of Mission.

Anyone capable of cutting through the high minded rhetoric and turning into comedy is someone who will be rooted out in any controlling organization or group. By contrast, if you read memoirs from World War II and other wars, written by the people in the trenches, you will find in most armies, even the most obedient ones, a rich tradition of humor--graffiti, in jokes, improv comedy, anything to keep people chuckling. Spike Milligan, who survived World War II has a priceless series of books the first entitled Hitler:My Part in His Downfall.

Ted Morgan, who served reluctantly in the French Army in Algeria, has his memoir, My Battle of Algiers and it is hilarious and horrifying in turns. VD jokes, latrine jokes, jokes about the food, jokes at the expense of officers, jokes at ones own expense--both were there.

But abusive relationships, dictatorships and cults are worse than most armies--no jokes allowed.

Dictatorships of all sorts want to monopolize attention and energy and resent anything and anyone playful.

[forum.culteducation.com] (quote from a longer article

We might have a barren world in which a variety of LGATs co-exist in mutual support, but all are hostile open discussion that is genuine and provides an alternative to the LGAT world. Paul Watzlawick calls this 'the illusion of alternatives.'

Hitler pretended to hold free elections during his regime. Watzlawick described an election poster (government printed) that read:

"National Socialism or Bolshevik Chaos?' (Implying that if the voters must choose between voting Nazi and voting Communist, there was no choice--of course one must vote Nazi).

Well, an anti Nazi prankster had the last work and arranged to create little stickers which under cover of night, were placed on the pompous posters.

The stickers read, 'Erapfel oder Kartoffel?'---'Spuds or Potatoes'?

No matter what the name of the LGAT its a case of spuds or potatoes. The First Amendment is used to disrupt present diversity of discussion and viewpoint, to create a world where where LGATs hold monopoly and the First Amendment dies for lack of air to breathe.

(Watzlawick The Language of Change, page 68)

And in a footnote on page 54, Watzlawick wrote: 'The Gestapo had its own joke department (may I be forgiven this horrid non sequitur) whose task it was to trace the
originators of political jokes. After all jokes are political dynamite...')