Dear Forum readers,

I joined this forum to see if people would join in a discussion to help me understand this group Greater Grace World Outreach (GGWO). I have been involved with them and have seen much good in them, but have read of some of their history recently and it has some very harmful practices.

I saw a posting here from someone who is taking them to court and so it seems that either some of the old controversies are still being dealt with or new ones are ocurring.

The question now is since the new leadership has it changed? I find it difficult to know is it because of the pressure of the internet forcing accountability on them and so they are more careful or is there real change? There are still errors but that can be just lack of experience and such. I am thankful for views of people who know about this organization and also from outsiders as they can be very objective not being emotionally involved not having made any investment of their time or life there.

regards
Chad

To be honest with you, the new leadership seems to be as bad in terms of spiritual abuse as anything Carl Stevens ever did. I don't think the financial and sexual abuse is anywhere as bad.

The authoritian methods I believe are far worse, and the cultist behavior is horrific.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This gives message board participants a better understanding of the group in question, which has a deeply troubled history.

The group has been called a "cult" and lost a court case that revolved around charges of "brainwashing."

The judgement against the church was upheld all the way the US Supreme Court.

The key to meaningful change for this group would be accountability or its leaders, such as through a democratically elected church government and an annually published budget that details all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds.

An elected board could be required through the bylaws of the church corporate filings and constitution. This would typically require all members to vote by secret ballot to elect board members to fixed terms, who would stand for election again when their term expired. The church board would be able to discipline and if necessary fire the pastor or any staff and decide upon the budget.

An annually published budget should be distributed to all contributing members and could be independently audited.

Without this type of objective change whatever the group claims it has done to change may be merely cosmetic and not really that significant.

Thank you for your responses both zdad and rrmoderator. I have read some of the material about them and have found the past history to be full or problems with reports from a wide spectrum of society: the media, the courts, the counter-cult groups, other Christian organizations, former members.

It is something to know the sexual abuses have stopped and the financial also. How can these be finished and the spiritual abuses continue? Isn't some level of control important to govern a relatively large organization, not only there in Baltimore but around the US and the world?

How do you see that the cultic behaviour still exists and that the spiritual abuse is still there?

regards
Chad

Chad Colson:

Are you saying that Greater Grace now publishes and distributes to its members an annual budget that discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds?

Are you saying that Greater Grace now has democratically elected church government?

If these changes have not been made then the group has no meaningful safeguards to prevent further abuse.

Dear rrModerator,

I don't think any of these measures have been taken firstly they do not have members, which limits the rights of congregants, however, it also removed restrictions from access to the community.

The serious financial wrongs such as the court case that was alarming to me. First taking $1M them later a further $5M; that was hard to digest, but it was the fact that following that $6M or so, they allowed her then to write her will leaving nothing to her children but most to The Bible Speaks. The other things I read of was that people sold houses and moved into the community living, having given a large percentage of the sale proceeds to the organization and soon found themselves without a home and having to pay rent which they were told they would not need to. It is these very serious abuses that seem to have stopped and the great destruction it left.
Also there were cases of adultary reported and very little was done to the leaders who were involved in them, for the best part they continued in their leadeship position as a pastor or a teacher. These abuses and the culture that allowed it seems to have gone.

But whether the use of the offerings of the congregants are being used in a just way I don't know. I guess anything seems just compared to the way it was, however, I don't have any reason to think why not though greater transparency would help. The money is used I understood for the paying of the bills, the running of the ministries such as, radio, CD duplication which are distributed free to all their missionaries, hosting conferences, regular bills of the property and the salaries of the staff.

This is the first change of leadership for over 30 years and it was very stormy change, ending with a debate between two candidates, the present leader Tom Schaller and the former leaders son Steve Stevens. At the end of the debate a vote was held with the congregation and Tom Schaller won by a larger margin.

It definetely seems to have improved from before, but before was so bad in some respects that any change would seem good. I suppose the question I am asking is it healthy not as compared to the way it was but as compared to a healthy ministry?

What merits it healthy? They do evangelize sharing the plain gospel, this is defintely part of their work. They do send missionaries to different parts of the world. They do have some good ministries such as in India with a good school and orphanage. They do adhere to the cardinal doctrines of the Bible. They are committed people and hard working.

Then what would merit it unhealthy? Is the leader given too high a position so the congregants are led more to him than to God and the Scriptures? Are people's decisions governed by the desires of the leaders? Are people required do break off relationships with family and other Christian ministries to avoid questioning of the teaching and motives of the leaders (this I feel was strongly so, and maybe is still there but more subtle). Do people who 'succeed' in mission work are they used to authenticate the organization and so the needs of the people are not primary but that the organization looks good is? Are the people in the differnt congregations needs kept as primary and not the organization's appearance?

It is hard to determine, I see good in the organization, good people, sincere, and following God with their whole heart. Finding something to give their life to, a community that they can serve God in and be supported in a whole-hearted way; this is what they somewhat declare to be - it is a bit radical, but is that abusive?

Chad Cotson:

Thanks for the frank response.

Based upon what you have said not much seems to have changed, other than Carl Stevens is dead and their is a new leader.

If the new leader means to set things right he will devolve power from the top through an elected board as outlined and then disclose the finances of the group as cited above.

Until this is done the group will remain essentially totalitarian and its finances a mystery.

The book titled "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" might be helpful.

See [www.amazon.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

These are some practical "warning signs."

I have discussed my situation with several attorney's, and experts across the country. I am filing a brief in a Baltimore City Court and one locally concerning a situation with a situation that GGWO got involved in. I am also making a motion regarding their involvement to basically keep them out of the situation from here on.

It is rather sad that you can find lawyers, psychologist, and host of others to assist you if you are say a family that has a child with a drug problem, or say a family that has an abusive spouse. But if you want help with a church that has abused your family forget it unless you are made of money.

Greater Grace plays on people who have needs, issues, or concerns that they can take advantage of. The swallow up those who are disenfranchised and use the hell out of them.