I would like to pose a question to the recent posters, namely: marvin, surfer, dk, richard, exfollower, and disillusioned.

What would you say to someone who has a family member STILL in the group; someone who joined in early days, married within, and has kids. Is there any hope of ever discussing ANYTHING regarding the group? Will it all be bullshit and evasion as it sounds like every group member has been taught? Is it hopeless for the kids, born into the life (who are now marrying within as well)? Best to leave it alone? Do we owe it to them to try? What would you do in my (and my family's) shoes? What CAN be done??

I think you have to confront them on a theological basis first. Galations discusses Judaizing and non-Jews do not have to and actually can't follow the laws of the Torah like a Jew does. Also, Christianity is about Jesus (or as some call him Yeshua) and not Jack Hickman. Furthermore, I spoke to someone at Chabad who told me that Hickman's mother was confronted and she said that Jack wasn't Jewish. If she or someone else in the Hickman family can be enlisted, use them. Also, I have Confessions of a Jewish Cultbuster and anyone who wants my input will get it. Being involved with the cult has caused a lot of problems for me that persist until the current day.

Fight back against mind control, manipulating leaders and those who would exploit you. Take control of your own destiny. Before you get involved with a religious movement, investigate it thoroughly first.

When Hickman decided to Judaize and he first started using Hebrew in the services a number of the Jewish cult victims and I discussed how bad his Hebrew was. It was obvious that he wasn't what he claimed he was. Also, as his cult is spreading, we should be very vocal about how false the teachings are. I knew Hickman personally but decided to leave. He stole a speech from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Why did he tell people to go to Chabad and Carlebach? The answer is that he was almost totally deficient as per his knowledge of Jewish exegetical beliefs, practices, etc. Essentially, he was a fraud .

Fight back against mind control, manipulating leaders and those who would exploit you. Take control of your own destiny. Before you get involved with a religious movement, investigate it thoroughly first.

I feel for your dilemma Concerned....You know I've spent more energy on this cult in the past 3 months through this forum than I have in the past 25 years. I don't think anyone can really predict and tell you how someone in your family will respond to your efforts to try and help them see the delusions and illusions of this cult. I can only tell you, and this is strictly my opinion as a psychiatric health-care professional, that these individuals still involved with the cult have a "fixed delusion.". One of the worst forms of a psychosis to have because it is fixed and the belief is rewarded in THEIR environment. People who usually hold these fixed delusions usually become extremely defensive, perhaps argumentative and dismissive of any one who attempts to challenge or discuss their delusions in a reality based fashion. I learned this the hard way in my field with severely psychiatriclly ill people. You might have a shot by what mental health professionals term, "joining their resistance". In other words, someone engages them in a discussion about their beliefs in a VERY non-judgmental way, non-threatening way....in the hopes they begin to really talk about what they believe as you slowly and in a VERY,VERY non judgmental way pose questions to them...some may have a nagging underlying doubt that may come through.
It is your decision, one that you would really have to weigh out the risks and benefits of such an attempt. In other words you may risk losing any future communication with them at all as a result of your attempts.
It would be like trying to convince an individual who's been brainwashed into believing the Holocaust never happened and you're trying to convince them otherwise, even with hard core evidence...It's like people who believe we never landed on the moon that it was a staged Hollywood event....the US Gov't caused 9/11, those kind of fixed beliefs that certain people hold, I have found in my own experience, it is almost impossible to convince them otherwise. Good Luck-

Concerned, everyone is different. People in their 50s and 60s that have adult children a part of things are not going to easily turn away from what has become not only a theological basis, but moral, political, social, dietary, everything. If they have fully invested, pushing them to answer some truths about the organization may only serve to make them more steadfast, which is something that will fuel their feelings of being a "true believer" and "righteous." Such people even use people questioning their faith as "tests" that they pass.

But there are other people, like me. As my father said, I am a radical. I was looking for a way out anyway. I was sick of not living my life the way I was compelled to. I have always tried to listen to my intuition and live my life the way that seems right for me, and I was simply told too many times that those decision were wrong because they were not from the man. The more situations like this happened, the more steps I took away from everything. There are plenty of other people sitting on that fence.

If you'd like, for what it's worth, you can message me their name and I'll tell you how entrenched they seemed to me if it helps you decide what approach you are going to take.

Either way, good luck.

Keep reaching out. The more people someone has that are not involved that continue to be a positive influence on their life, the better for them.

Also, I should apologize for my little outburst the other day. I have to say, I was not acting myself most of the day and reading the message boards set me off. Hot temper.

Concerned1220,
i don't know. its been so long, even the people i knew that are in, i don't know. my best guess is, logic, questions, arguing, debate etc, is a dead end; and as others have said, they would be defensive and it would be probably be counterproductive.
but again, if they have doubts and are questioning... be supportive. listen. you can't 'shake someones faith', but you can be there for them.

i wish i had an answer. its been 30 yrs, so much has changed, so much is the same. i was lucky, so many friends i was close to, also left. the friends who stayed, who i tried to reach out to back then... well, i didn't 'hassle' them. i tried to understand their point of view and just talk. (tho i would find that difficult to do now.)

Concerned I can hear the emotions in your posting. This is a tricky area but one that should be addressed. We need to be careful and not become what we don't like in others. Just because our beliefs are not the same as others, even those who still follow JH's teachings, does not give us the authority or right to tell his followers they are wrong. There are many, many religious groups in the world who feel they are the only ones right and everyone else is wrong. People can belive what they want, at least in this country, and unless they step over the boundries where they inflict pain on people, abuse children and/or the elderly, or preach criminal actions such as sexual misconduct to others (children and adults) then all we can do is stand by and watch. If a person has knowledge of child abuse being currently committed within this group then they have a moral obligation to report it. If a person knows someone is being held there and wants out then we can offer help. Will a person who after all these decades still belives in JH's teaching be open to a frank and candid discussion of the possibility they are being mislead...I doubt it. Will the children who are by now adults themselves be any different..I highly doubt it. it is the same as wacthing a documentary on the Neo Nazi white power skin head movement in this country. That's where we see and hear first hand the things even the youngest children spout. Can we do anything unless we can proof abuse, no. It's not a crime to have different beliefs, it is a crime to abuse people. All we can do is offer to speak to anyone who is willing to listen and tell our side of the story. If someone wants help then we can provide it. That's my two cents.

marvin - good point! (but rather than comparing them to neo-nazis; i'd say its more like any number of religions, who are closed-minded, and 'know the truth'.

Absolutely not, no way Marvin am I going to agree with you. While the people there may not be actively abusing their children, it's certainly not an advertised practice of the group, they are in no way NOT trying to manipulate people into behaving a certain way based on poor leadership, fear, guilt, and manipulation all tied up with a pretty and false bow called "love." Where ever possible, they are keeping their children from being educated in the public school systems, they use their hierarchy of clan heads, elders, and super clans to subvert the individual in all areas of life. This can include who you want to marry, where you want to live, what you want to do with your life, where you might buy a house, etc.

As with everything in this group, it is insidious.

They encourage co-dependency behaviors to keep people from leaving. They use fear of losing their own family members and being shunned. They have shown up at peoples doorsteps to try to dissuade them from continuing down whatever "path" they deem unworthy. They have covered up some issues between the adults that should have been handled by the cops, like home invasion! They actively discourage people seeking mental help services (probably to keep them from being exposed).

This is not just some froofy group of revelationists waiting for the Messiah.

They impose their ideals on individuals, shun those who do not drink the kool-aid, elevate those willing to act the poster children for the ideal of "perfection."

This is not a permissive group of people seeking the same ideals. It is a totalitarian group.

Should we judge them for their religious beliefs? That's your own issue. Beyond the religious or spiritual implications, they do not allow people to live their lives freely. That is a problem. That is why people are afraid for their family members. And they have every right to be.

Do not try to dumb down the serious mental abuse taking place in that group, regularly. Read any journal article out there, and it now talks about the dreadful and long lasting consequences of the school-yard bully. Not the one that knocks you around for lunch money, but the one that degrades you as a person, leaving deep and lasting marks.

Concerned has every right to be so, and using a very nice and utopian view of dealing with people, ie-do no harm, should not apply to a group that has 50k plus people reading this post because of the damage that has been done to them.