Sallie, you have a good point and it makes a lot of sense.Thank you.
Tsukimoto, can so relate to what you say about sometimes missing the good things in the group.Will never go back, value freedom of thought too much, but there are things that I do miss.
THE Dean 001; while meditation is helpful for some people, and obviously works well for you, you may be interested in reading Joe Kellets' Ex Tm site, where he talks about the fact that for some people, there can be unpleasant side effects. For some people too much meditation can lead to being disconnected from life and even to psychotic breaks. For others it has always been a great way to relax. Just wanted to add a possible different point of view.
Thanks to everyone writing here. Yasmin

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THE_DEAN_001
Let go of all these thoughts and self-judgments and maybe you will begin to understand that these thoughts are the cause of your suffering.

All you need to do is let go of all this obsessive thinking and look within yourself...no guru can do that for you. Allow yourself to be at peace.

My advice would be to spend a few minutes each day asking yourself, "what is it that is noticing these thoughts?". Do NOT expect to find an answer...just asking that question is enough. You can do it in between television programs and you do not have to sit cross-legged to do it. Anytime you find yourself getting carried away with self-destruction thoughts about being too spiritual or not spiritual enough...let go of that guilt and interrupt the pattern you have created by asking this question.

I hope this helps and I would like to end by saying...let the flaming begin!

Why should we flame you, Dean? Are you a hunka hunka burning love? :-)

Okay, let me start by saying that I think that you are AGREEING with the main point that many of us make: it's important to really look at our thoughts. Are we allowing ourselves to be sucked into patterns of thinking that are inaccurate and created unnecessary guilt, fear, sadness, anger or anxiety? Really looking at -- and consciously changing unrealistic thoughts can help us to be happier, more at peace, and more effective in our lives --and less likely to be manipulated by a group or guru. This is also the point of Rational-emotive Therapy, Cognitive Therapy, and CBT, as promoted by Drs. Albert Ellis, David Burns, and Aaron Beck.

My disagreement with you is not the goal -- but the means of getting there. Telling people "all you need to do is let go of this obsessive thinking...allow yourself to be at peace..." may be helpful for some people, but not others. Some people may feel, "Yeah, it's all very well to say that, but I don't know HOW to let go of my thinking, and be at peace! If I did, I'd have done it already!" If you have learned harmful ways of thinking, then changing it is not going to happen quickly, easily, or overnight. A person may need a therapist or a group of people who are also working on the same issue to provide guidance, suggestions, encouragement and support.

I compare it to getting in shape, physically. Sure, if you have some experience with exercise and fitness, maybe you can plan a good exercise regimen for yourself, and follow it. But if you are out of shape, haven't exercised in years, never did know much about fitness...what do you do? Someone can tell you, "You should exercise more." As the kids say, "Well, DUUUUUH!" You KNOW you need to exercise more! Maybe you walk a bit or do some crunches or push-ups -- and then what? What you need is a trainer, a coach, a book, a website....you need help making your plan, finding the way.

I look at this website as a gym for my thinking! All kinds of people and ideas to work my mind in different ways. But I'll stop for now to retie my sneakers.

well, my view is the comments from "THE_DEAN_001" sounds like the Eckhart Tolle method.

This is part of my view.
In theology, there is the Original Sin, which most people now reject.

But in the "advice" given, its another form of Original Sin of the Mind.
People like Eckhart Tolle think there is something wrong with the natural human mind, the way nature made it.
What if these guys are completely wrong-headed?

Their example are often wars, killings, and the rest of it. But we all agree that is pathological.

But this idea that "detaching" from ones thoughts is going to help people, is very dubious.
Maybe if you are a monk, or living in a rural area, etc.

Every single new agey cultish group in the world uses this method to get at people, to soften up their heads.
I think these guys don't know what they are talking about, to be blunt. Its great to have an active mind, a curious mind. What if happiness is achieved doing the opposite of what these guys say to do?
Their solution, pardon the bluntness, is something akin to a self-lobotomy. Trying to shut the thinking mind down.

Personally, I find that very destructive and a type of ancient Original Sin of the Mind.
Ignorance is not bliss, and knowledge is great.

Mindfulness meditation is being studied by science now, and in moderation can help with some problems. But its no panacea.
Having an active, curious mind is fun, and natural.
This ancient No-Mind stuff came out of a primitive society, where life was short and brutish. If you are a monk, then fine, shut the mind down, shut your sex down, and good luck to you.
But for regular folk in the modern world, this entire Eckhart Tolle stuff is very regressive.
To be even more blunt, its a new age fad.

The solution is not a mind-lobotomy.
What if a better idea was the exact opposite, to unleash your curious and creative natural mind?
Personally, I'd rather have the curious mind of a cat, than a Zombie.
It does seem that people fear the natural human mind.

More specifically, new age culty leaders fear the independent minds of their followers, so they designed ways to PASSIFY them. That is what it is really about.

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yasmin
Sallie, you have a good point and it makes a lot of sense.Thank you.
Tsukimoto, can so relate to what you say about sometimes missing the good things in the group.Will never go back, value freedom of thought too much, but there are things that I do miss.

Thats the thing with all groups sadly.

I guess thats why Charles Manson called his little cult "The Family".
I heard similar sentiments (from documentaries) from surviving members of Jim Jone's "People's Temple".
I could go on.

Unfortunately for some cults becomes a substitute for the ideal family that they never had.

Hi Kier,
True. And for those of us born and raised, we are actually talking about our real/blood family; brothers, sisters, mothers or fathers for many of us are still in the groups we left.

I sometimes think it is why things are a bit different for those born and raised versus those who joined groups as adults.Born and raised kids/2nd generation kids were never love bombed or conned into the situation, or even given any other options.So our view of the whole experience and sense of norms can be a little different.

And everyone from our childhood, the ones we loved, the ones we hated, were, for many of us, all group members.

Can be hard to detatch from the only roots you will ever have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2009 08:08AM by yasmin.

Hi everyone,
I have been so impressed with the quality of the ideas coming thru in these posts lately - how refreshing it is for me to hear from people who have clearly spent a lot of time thinking thru and getting to well imformed and healthy views of these tricky topics.
I have been guilty of looking (on more occasions than is healthy) for the 'answer' - the one thing or one approach that will make me feel better. Sometimes that means wanting my pain to go away, and sometimes it is wanting to feel superior to others: if I know something, others will think more highly of me. There are so many motives that come into play when we are looking for security etc. I think it is important to see where you are coming from when you give advice and check your motives, so to speak.

There doesnt appear to be just one answer, for me, sadly. I know this because I find, most frustratingly that as soon as I seize hold of something and think ' this is it!' I have found that the next day or week, something else seems important. There are many useful things for me right now, and yet I am still struggling along.

Thanks to you guys for the good links - John Knapps site helped me, as has CBT and may check out the skeptics and tai chi and exTM site. Found the Tsukimoto/anticult earlier dialogue also helpful.

I was biased by my group to look for a 'spiritual' solution, akin to meditation, prayer or tolle method and so on. Hence I was surprised to find that reading STeve Hassan's book, as well as others that describe the cult mind control process has been useful. I had a superior attitude to information becos in my cult we were taught the mind was inferior to the soul, of course. 'Soul' here actually translates as 'the groups party line' and mind translates as 'anything else' basically. Perhaps a bit like AA (from what I have heard of it) where you have to get to a point of realising you are an alcholic before you can move on; I have finally started to admit that I have been in a cult, was under mind control and consequently have symptoms that I need to acknowledge and tend to. I am not just on a 'spiritual path' whereby my group was 'part of my journey' and I no longer want to deny what my life is truly like.
That is progress, i know.

I appreciated Sallies heartfelt comments because I did feel the tone of the Deans message reinforced my feelings of being not good enough and needing to do his method in order to get better. This is a tendancy I am sick of having actually, of joining with others via being advised or me advising them. I am usually in a one up or one down position in relation to others. Superior or inferior. I take responsibility for that and also can see how this was taught in my cult.
I have absolutely relished all the interactions here in which people have posted in a respectful, one person to another way. It has been great to start to learn to interact as equals. Its hard to be equals if you cant accept that you are not perfect and havent got it all sorted out, and the other person is the same way. There is a need for me to feel ok about being as I am and not having to act like Im fixed or on the other hand not act like a victim that needs saving either.

At the same time, the Deans post resonated with me and was useful for me - thanks the Dean. I have been interested in Thomas Mertons 'centering prayer' in which you basically still your mind and wait for Gods presence to reveal itself. I have had some powerful insights whilst doing this. The Dean, I find your method whilst omitting the word 'God', to be the same idea - to feel who I am really, underneath the thoughts. Whilst this is also the Tolle type thing I feel it does have a place for me. And yes why make it all mystical and special sounding - you can do it in front of tv. How many times to people like to package it all up into something that sounds extraordinary,yet ironically is supposed to help your everday life!

When I did this practice though I did overdo it and saw a real danger of relying only on the sense of things I got in prayer/meditation. This is dangerous because it feeds into my old bad habit in the cult of discounting my critical thinking and my everyday life. They both are important, (or so I am told!).

Can I believe then that God/the truth comes both in insight thru quiet time/prayer AND thru critical thinking/reading, analysing etc. I still feel torn between them and yes The Dean, you are spot on, that this becomes an obsessive line of which is right, which is wrong.

It is starting to seem to me that all these approaches are good, but only when they are done becos you want to do them, must be for right reasons. When anything becomes the one answer, thats where the trouble starts, whether its only meditating, no critical thinking or only thinking and denying the spirit. Then again one thing could be enough for a person for a whole lifetime. Yet I myself still find this hard to agree with, I am still caught by ideas i was brainwashed into believing.
I struggle to find a balance between choosing things via my intuitive feel and my thoughts/anaylsis and desires. They seem so different from each other.

I suspect that the next thing, personally for me, is to really look at diligently refuting the fears I have believed for all these years, since I was taught them age 18. If I dont remove the fear of God/getting it wrong spiritually etc from floating around in my subconscious, I will be motivated by it regularly. I long to get to the point where I really know there is nothing to be afraid of and that I cant get it 'wrong' and nothing terrible will happen to me. Now I know this sort of but it is so ingrained in me that it is like a thorn that must be extracted again and again, day after day it seems.

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Sallie
THE_DEAN_001
Your problem isn't really that you don't meditate enough or that you waste a lot of time. Your problem seems to be that you obsess about whether these things are "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong". Let go of all these thoughts and self-judgments and maybe you will begin to understand that these thoughts are the cause of your suffering.


Dean,
OK. I give up. I re-read the statement and your explanation several times. Help me out. A thought that ''causes suffering'' would not be good....correct? So the thoughts which ''cause suffering'' and are not good....would be bad...correct? So are you saying that it is ''bad'' to think about what is good or bad because.....nothing is bad????
Or are you saying that only ''thinking something is bad''....is ''bad''.
I admit...I just don't understand your point.
Also...obsessing would be to think repetitively...correct? So if it is bad to obsess then, are you saying it is bad to meditate??

If that is how it came off I would say that my words were misleading. Thoughts that cause suffering sometimes lead to something good...sometimes they do not. Thoughts that cause suffering often lead to wisdom, insight, perspective, and compassion for other people. On the other hand...sometimes people commit horrible acts and do not suffer in the least. I would never mean to say that something is "good" or "bad" based on the amount of internal mental suffering it causes a particular individual.

The situation Pegasus was describing, in my opinion, was neither "good" or "bad". He didn't rob a bank or throw anybody off a cliff. He didn't disown his family for not showing up to the family reunion. He simply wants to have a spiritual connection to life and thinks that meditating or finding a path will give that to him...and causes undue suffering within himself when he does not live up to the imaginary standards he has set.

I suppose I am suggesting that his suffering might be part of a learning process. He is simply going through a process of inner turmoil and it is important that he look deeply to find out what "life" is attempting to teach him. This process of looking deeply is, itself, meditation. Start where you are and find out what that is all about. Obsessive thinking is not the same thing as looking deeply. Looking deeply is beyond thought.

In my opinion, meditation is very good for you. Serving others is also good for you. The problem is that we often use these things as a way of escaping the reality of our own suffering and call it "spirituality". I would like to offer the suggestion that true meditation lies in confronting you suffering and understanding your suffering. Pegasus has divided the "spiritual" from the "ordinary" and I am suggesting that they are one and the same thing. Spirituality is a matter of perspective...a genuine feeling of love for yourself and others whether you are meditating, grocery shopping, or watching TV. There is really no difference between "spiritual" and "normal" activity.

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Sallie
Dean,
One more question. To judge would be to discern and separate....correct? Humans being the complicated creatures that we are.....we tend to create many categories and names for our deductions. Can I assume that you do not categorize the results of your ''discernments'' into groups of good or bad but that, you instead label thoughts as ''ones which cause suffering'' and ''ones which do not cause suffering''?????

To discern and separate is definitely a decent definition of "judging". And just like numbers...thoughts and judgments can be divided ad infinitum. Obsessive thinking is little more than rewording the same thing in a million different ways. It appears as if you are going somewhere but, in reality, you are spinning in circles. I'm sure this is not news to anybody.

The way out is not thinking better thoughts. The way out of depression, malaise, and compulsive thinking lies in understanding one's relationship to their thoughts. Look at them from a different angle and watch them as if they were athletes playing a football game. Watch them as if they are actors projected up a screen. What happens in between thoughts? Do you cease to exist? Who am I when I am not thinking? If I am these thoughts...then what is "it" that is noticing the thoughts?

To answer the question directly...I do not really spend a lot of time labeling and categorizing my "discernments". If I have a thought about stealing something I know it is a "bad" thought. I do not need to contemplate it for hours or dissect it. I don't have to waste time deciding whether or not it will cause suffering or not cause suffering. If I notice that something I am doing is causing suffering in myself or others I just try to understand why I am doing it and how I can change it.

When you notice that thinking is habitual and often leads you to false conclusions the right thing to do automatically becomes clear. I'd like to clarify that I was in not way suggesting that I know what is best for Pegasus. I offered my advice and other people also offered advice. Pegasus should look at all this different advice and see if any of it helps. Whatever advice works for him he should consider and whatever doesn't he should discard. In the end, only he can be the judge of what is best for himself. He is simply going through something many intelligent people go through. I have been where he is at and it is not a fun place to be. I am letting him know that he is being way to hard on himself and offering some advice that was helpful to me...watch your thoughts and the space in between your thoughts.

If somebody else gave him better advice than I am happy for him. He should should follow that advice instead.

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tsukimoto

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THE_DEAN_001
Let go of all these thoughts and self-judgments and maybe you will begin to understand that these thoughts are the cause of your suffering.

All you need to do is let go of all this obsessive thinking and look within yourself...no guru can do that for you. Allow yourself to be at peace.

My advice would be to spend a few minutes each day asking yourself, "what is it that is noticing these thoughts?". Do NOT expect to find an answer...just asking that question is enough. You can do it in between television programs and you do not have to sit cross-legged to do it. Anytime you find yourself getting carried away with self-destruction thoughts about being too spiritual or not spiritual enough...let go of that guilt and interrupt the pattern you have created by asking this question.

I hope this helps and I would like to end by saying...let the flaming begin!

Why should we flame you, Dean? Are you a hunka hunka burning love? :-)

Okay, let me start by saying that I think that you are AGREEING with the main point that many of us make: it's important to really look at our thoughts. Are we allowing ourselves to be sucked into patterns of thinking that are inaccurate and created unnecessary guilt, fear, sadness, anger or anxiety? Really looking at -- and consciously changing unrealistic thoughts can help us to be happier, more at peace, and more effective in our lives --and less likely to be manipulated by a group or guru. This is also the point of Rational-emotive Therapy, Cognitive Therapy, and CBT, as promoted by Drs. Albert Ellis, David Burns, and Aaron Beck.

My disagreement with you is not the goal -- but the means of getting there. Telling people "all you need to do is let go of this obsessive thinking...allow yourself to be at peace..." may be helpful for some people, but not others. Some people may feel, "Yeah, it's all very well to say that, but I don't know HOW to let go of my thinking, and be at peace! If I did, I'd have done it already!" If you have learned harmful ways of thinking, then changing it is not going to happen quickly, easily, or overnight. A person may need a therapist or a group of people who are also working on the same issue to provide guidance, suggestions, encouragement and support.

I compare it to getting in shape, physically. Sure, if you have some experience with exercise and fitness, maybe you can plan a good exercise regimen for yourself, and follow it. But if you are out of shape, haven't exercised in years, never did know much about fitness...what do you do? Someone can tell you, "You should exercise more." As the kids say, "Well, DUUUUUH!" You KNOW you need to exercise more! Maybe you walk a bit or do some crunches or push-ups -- and then what? What you need is a trainer, a coach, a book, a website....you need help making your plan, finding the way.

I look at this website as a gym for my thinking! All kinds of people and ideas to work my mind in different ways. But I'll stop for now to retie my sneakers.

I look at this website as a gym for my thinking! All kinds of people and ideas to work my mind in different ways. But I'll stop for now to retie my sneakers.[/quote]

I agree with you that having a plan is often beneficial. Sometimes seeing a therapist can be helpful as well as groups offering encouragement and/or support. Sometimes people do these things and never get any better. It depends on the person and I agree that Pegasus should look into these things.

I disagree a little with the statement that harmful ways of thinking cannot happen quickly, easily, or overnight. Mine ended in a matter of seconds. I had suffered depression for years and bad case of it came back round when a three year relationship ended abruptly. I finally realized I needed to tell somebody that I was suffered from depression and spoke to my parents. They told me to see a doctor and I did just that. The doctor asked a few questions and gave me some free samples of Paxil. I took the Paxil for two or three days and then decided that, based on intuition, taking pills wasn't the solution to my depression. The doctor had also given me the number to a therapist but I remember thinking that the therapist was simply going to tell me what I already know. I was still thinking about calling to make an appointment but had not yet called to do so.

An evening or two later I was alone, depressed, and thinking obsessively. While all of this thought was going on...there was a sudden disconnect with the thoughts themselves. The thoughts were still there but "I" was not the thoughts. It became clear to me that my obsessive/circular thinking and lifelong bouts with depression were a distortion of reality. This was seen not as another philosophy or idea I had come up with but was seen as an unquestionable truth. You might compare it to the shadows cast upon the wall in Plato's "Myth of the Cave" or in looking at a painting and finally realizing for the very first time that the people in the painting are not real people. Thoughts are paintings...thoughts are shadows. Why obsess about them?

All of this happened in a matter of seconds. The depression went away and has never come back. I am still the same person and still enjoy the same things but I am not my thoughts anymore. I still enjoy playing music and going to the gym. I still laugh at fart jokes. The difference is just a shift in perception and a feeling of inner joy and beauty that does not disappear whenever something "bad" happens. It does not depend on believing in "God" or not believing in "God". It does it depend on being able to figure out all the solutions to whatever problems you might have. You will always have problems and you will never figure them all out. You will always make mistakes...that is life.

My thinking was that Pegasus is in a very peculiar situation. I gave him something that was very simple and only took a few minutes. If that's all he does I think it might be beneficial. If he chooses to put a program together consisting of the different things people have suggested and maybe he will use my advice somewhere down the line. Maybe he doesn't like me and thinks my advice is foolish...that is fine also. He has to follow his own path and see where it leads. I've been in his shoes and wish him the best of luck.

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The Anticult
well, my view is the comments from "THE_DEAN_001" sounds like the Eckhart Tolle method.

This is part of my view.
In theology, there is the Original Sin, which most people now reject.

But in the "advice" given, its another form of Original Sin of the Mind.
People like Eckhart Tolle think there is something wrong with the natural human mind, the way nature made it.
What if these guys are completely wrong-headed?

Their example are often wars, killings, and the rest of it. But we all agree that is pathological.

But this idea that "detaching" from ones thoughts is going to help people, is very dubious.
Maybe if you are a monk, or living in a rural area, etc.

Every single new agey cultish group in the world uses this method to get at people, to soften up their heads.
I think these guys don't know what they are talking about, to be blunt. Its great to have an active mind, a curious mind. What if happiness is achieved doing the opposite of what these guys say to do?
Their solution, pardon the bluntness, is something akin to a self-lobotomy. Trying to shut the thinking mind down.

Personally, I find that very destructive and a type of ancient Original Sin of the Mind.
Ignorance is not bliss, and knowledge is great.

Mindfulness meditation is being studied by science now, and in moderation can help with some problems. But its no panacea.
Having an active, curious mind is fun, and natural.
This ancient No-Mind stuff came out of a primitive society, where life was short and brutish. If you are a monk, then fine, shut the mind down, shut your sex down, and good luck to you.
But for regular folk in the modern world, this entire Eckhart Tolle stuff is very regressive.
To be even more blunt, its a new age fad.

The solution is not a mind-lobotomy.
What if a better idea was the exact opposite, to unleash your curious and creative natural mind?
Personally, I'd rather have the curious mind of a cat, than a Zombie.
It does seem that people fear the natural human mind.

More specifically, new age culty leaders fear the independent minds of their followers, so they designed ways to PASSIFY them. That is what it is really about.

If this is what Eckhart Tolle teaches than I would agree that people should be very leery. I don't necessarily agree with some of your points but it's good that people get to hear different sides of every issue. I would definitely agree that people should unleash their curious and creative natural mind. I'm not really sure why this Tolle tells people to give themselves lobotomies and be like zombies but nothing people do really surprise me anymore...it's a crazy world out there.