Why do I want to follow?

Well, it must be because I was repeatedly taught in my group that the student needs a teacher to take them to enlightenment. This is a sticking point for me because I see it is not just in my group but in Hindu and Buddhist non cult literature that we need a teacher as well. I am afraid that if I do my own thing and dont take on a teacher that I will just become egotistical and selfish (also teachings of my group and teachings of Eastern religions as well) It is because I am afraid that Eastern teachings are right.

In one sense I know that we need to follow our own path, but I dont really 'know' it inside yet, if you know what I mean!

Also I really do want to know the truth of things and to please God/do the right thing to gain enlightenment or what God wants. I know these ideals are still part of my brainwashing that I have not yet fully dislodged, but also I do need to find a new philosophy that I can believe in. My entire belief system has now been dislodged.

Hi Pegasus,
Really asking questions about religion takes a great deal of courage and you show that..Wish I had some pat answers for you, but having left my group some years ago, have never had that same sense of absolute religious certainty. But am reasonably comfortable without it:and maybe one day that will change. For now being kind , praying sometimes, and following my own sense of religion works.Don't want someone else interpreting God for me at this point. And admit am very jaded about the idea of enlightened/God's apostle type people anyway; most of them seem to be great charismatic speakers, but doubt whether they are that much better than the rest of us if faced with their own real life traumas.
Hope you find a truth and religious viewpoint that works for you. All the best, Yasmin

Yasmin, I'm pretty much where you are. I don't have that sense of religious certainty either. I wish I did, but maybe I'm slowly coming to accept that I don't. I feel suspicious of those who are that certain -- some of these people who are sure that they speak/act for God have done horrible things. It's the true believer types who become the terrorists and suicide bombers. If you are convinced that God is on your side, you can rationalize doing all kinds of horrible things. After all, God wants you to! We uncertain types, I think, are less likely to do harm to anyone.

That kind of certainty can be very attractive, though. My old group gave me a lot of aggravation and frustration, and yet sometimes, I miss it. Just being with people who are so sure that they know the truth, and that they have this magnificent mission to share it with the world...it can be very exciting. It makes you feel special, chosen, and as if your life has some amazing purpose apart from the mundane go to work and pay the bills routine.

I think that cult membership can be a lot like a romance with a charming, but manipulative person....in the beginning, both can be wonderful and magical. Life is exciting and you feel special, just being with this person, or part of that group. After awhile, you start noticing things that you didn't see, or weren't told, before. You start seeing that you are being taken advantage of, that the person/leaders are lying to you, that they're doing things they shouldn't...and it can still be hard to leave. You want to feel like you did at the beginning. You don't necessarily want to leave, you just want things to be better...and yet, the person or group refuses to change. Perhaps they even say, "The problem is you...you don't have enough faith, or trust, you're too demanding"...or too whatever. Do you leave, then? The person, or group has become so much a part of your life. You know that if you leave, your life will be much more free...but will it also feel kind of empty? I know, I sometimes wish for a new group to "replace" the one I had to leave. At this point, no organized religious group that I know of feels right. Maybe that's a good thing. A group that would have some of the traits that I loved in the old group...could also have the same negative traits. I could be pulled back into the same situations that I've worked hard to get free of.

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pegasus
Why do I want to follow?

Well, it must be because I was repeatedly taught in my group that the student needs a teacher to take them to enlightenment. This is a sticking point for me because I see it is not just in my group but in Hindu and Buddhist non cult literature that we need a teacher as well. I am afraid that if I do my own thing and dont take on a teacher that I will just become egotistical and selfish (also teachings of my group and teachings of Eastern religions as well) It is because I am afraid that Eastern teachings are right.

In one sense I know that we need to follow our own path, but I dont really 'know' it inside yet, if you know what I mean!

Also I really do want to know the truth of things and to please God/do the right thing to gain enlightenment or what God wants. I know these ideals are still part of my brainwashing that I have not yet fully dislodged, but also I do need to find a new philosophy that I can believe in. My entire belief system has now been dislodged.

Keep in mind theres a fine diffference between having a teacher and worshipping a teacher. Not all teachers will tell their studenst to worship them.

Have you thought of Taoism?

I am realising that I am still under the influence of my old cult's belief system which is scary. Im finding Steve Hassan's book really helpful right now to identify what happened to me. I just wanted to fix it, make it all change, but I havent been able to do that. Im now thinking that by understanding what happened and how my ideas changed to those of the cult, I may be able to get somewhere.
I too really miss my group and the feeling of being special and certain about everything and mostly the sense of community. I really long for that family feeling, having a lot of likeminded people around and sharing our lives together. However in the real world, people are all different and not all the same like they were in the cult. How to find community, without having to be part of another religious group, is something that I am wondering about right now.

That is a good point for me, that a teacher may teach you but not necessarily require you follow his every word, worship him and stop thinking for yourself. I havent looked into Taoism at all, so I might have a look. I must have thought that if a teacher has wisdom and wants to guide you, that he will do it in an absolutist way - he is always right and you are the student who doesnt know anything. That is very black and white, isnt it. If I am giving advice I usually offer what I can see, but respect that the person I am giving the advice to will know whether it is for them or not. But I wonder if a spiritual teacher could ever know better than you what you need.

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pegasus
That is a good point for me, that a teacher may teach you but not necessarily require you follow his every word, worship him and stop thinking for yourself. I havent looked into Taoism at all, so I might have a look. I must have thought that if a teacher has wisdom and wants to guide you, that he will do it in an absolutist way - he is always right and you are the student who doesnt know anything. That is very black and white, isnt it. If I am giving advice I usually offer what I can see, but respect that the person I am giving the advice to will know whether it is for them or not. But I wonder if a spiritual teacher could ever know better than you what you need.

With Taoism there are many many different sects. The teachers are seen as more like "costodian of knowledge and wisdom". Followers honour and respect their teachers but they dont worship them.

Heres a book you might find interesting. Its called "Road to Heaven: Encounters with Chinese Hermits" by Bill Porter & Steven Johnson. As the title hints; its about the hermit tradition in China. You still have hermits living in the isolated mountains of China. They are honour and respected and all that. They have a very lose religion which there isnt really any "masters" per say but rather knowledge and wisdom is shared and taught among aquintances.

Maybe you might want to take a try at kung fu? Alot of teachers shares a spiritual aspect with their practices. I think the work outs will help regulate your mind and body. If you want something more spiritual try Tai chi (its also a Taoist art). Or you could try Aikido which is very spiritual art.

I'm sure theres some good kung fu/tai chi or aikido schools in your area. You should at least have a look into them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2009 05:27AM by Keir.

I have found John Knapp's website to be helpful. He is an ex-cult member, TM, I think, and counsels people who have cult issues. His website has some good articles about meditation, and leaving your group.

Regarding having a teacher or mentor...I don't know about that. My group insisted that the president of our lay organization had to be our mentor and teacher, that you needed to follow his teachings to attain enlightenment. I couldn't accept that. I read his writings -- there were a few good ideas there, but nothing that struck me as exceptionally wise or profound. I was told that I was arrogant. Maybe I am...but I'm just not certain that someone else really knows better than I do how I should live MY life.

Kids in school have to obey teachers, but those teachers cannot do whatever they like either. Teachers have to answer to department heads, students' parents, principals, deans, college presidents, their state licensing bureau, and school boards. A public or private school teacher who is guilty of misconduct or incompetence can lose his or her certification and can be fired. I worry because these spiritual teachers don't have anyone who can tell them, "You can't do/say this." They can have great power over their followers -- and yet, to whom does the guru have to answer? Quite often, nobody. They can do whatever they please and nobody can say no to them. Power can corrupt people...I don't want to hand my power over to someone who may not have my best interests in mind. I'm not saying I can't learn from others...if a kid, or the lady who waits on me at the coffee bar has some idea that I haven't heard before, I'll listen, and I'll take it in if it's good. I wouldn't have a teacher that I couldn't question.

Pegasus wrote :Whilst I do appreciate advice, the thing that probably helps the most, is hearing of others experiences that are similar to mine and the crazy things they believed and fears they had.

HI Pegasus. I could tell you lots of crazy things I believed. For starters our group had laws about kosher food and cleanliness. They actually used the Bible to push these rules. I later read the Bible for myself only to find out that those rules or laws were simply life style rules for wilderness living 3,500 years ago and that, 2,000 years ago the Bible clearly and repeatedly says that they are not necessary for spirituality. But regardless, our group implemented those insane rules and even made them stricter. I believed that if a plate or any food I ate had ever come into the sight of a bathroom, and I ate it...I would be unclean. How ridiculous is that? That is just one of a gaxillion impossible rituals I believed I had to follow. Then on the other hand they had us believe that we need to meditate constantly and that the earth's weather patterns could actually be effectd by our prayers. So think of it...I'm bad if my spoon was seen by the toilet....and I'm bad if there is an earthquake on another continent. Talk about crazy fears.
And I know what you mean about still wanting to find the truth. I didn't leave and then suddenly decide that there is no absolute truth...quite the opposit...I had a desire to keep seeking the truth. CBT sounds like a good tool.

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Sallie
Then on the other hand they had us believe that we need to meditate constantly and that the earth's weather patterns could actually be effectd by our prayers. So think of it...I'm bad if my spoon was seen by the toilet....and I'm bad if there is an earthquake on another continent. Talk about crazy fears.

Regarding crazy things that I was taught to believe:

--My former group's leaders said that we had to chant constantly for world peace. The group holds a special chanting session for nuclear disarmament. They believe if they chant long and hard enough, and recruit enough other people to chant -- Iran, North Korea, and everyone else who has nukes --- will simply give them up.

--Some group leaders told me that, when a young relative of mine was diagnosed with Type I diabetes, that I needed to show more faith. They said she has not been cured because I haven't chanted enough for her. That, or because I must have had doubts and a negative attitude when I was chanting about this.

--Some of the members of my former group also have said that Cyclone Nargis devastated Myanmar because the people of Myanmar practice a heretical, incorrect form of Buddhism.

This seems totally nuts as I sit here, typing, and looking at the words on my computer screen. Yet, for years, I was surrounded by people, educated professionals, who believed things like this -- which made these beliefs seem more reasonable. Also, my life HAD gone reasonably well while I was in the group. So that made it seem very possible that chanting could actually change things -- and that my life would turn into a mess if I stopped!

I believe that it was Anticult, who posted a link to the Skeptics' Dictionary on another thread -- skepdic.com. I read the page about ad hoc and post hoc fallacies, which seem to apply here.

Post hoc fallacy: X happens, and then Y happens. You assume that X caused Y, when in fact maybe it didn't. My group taught that if we chanted, good things would happen to you. So when I was job-hunting, I naturally chanted a lot -- and I also went everywhere, talked to everyone I could, networked, applied everywhere I could think of, polished my interviewing skills, made sure that I was qualified for the jobs I wanted. I got the job I wanted, and my group said, "See? Chanting gets you a job." I thought that too, for a long time. And yet, people who DON'T chant, get jobs too! Besides, if I'd just chanted a lot and NOT done all the work of job-hunting --- do you really think I'd have gotten that job?

Ad hoc fallacy: You believe that X causes Y. When X happens...but Y doesn't, you refuse to believe that your theory X causes Y could be wrong, and you come up with some goofy excuse for Y not happening. In the past, people believed that the sun and all the planets revolved around the earth. Yet, astronomers, observing the orbits of other planets, noticed that the planets just didn't seem to stay in the expected path. Instead of realizing, "Well, maybe the other planets DON'T revolve around the earth, " these astronomers just decided that maybe the planets just bounced around in space, sliding backwards in their orbits, or going off in a little circle before returning to their regular orbit.

My relative's health didn't improve after my chanting? My leaders could not admit that maybe chanting CAN'T fix everything...the problem had to be that I didn't chant enough, or with the right attitude. It's a safe thing to say, because, really how much DO you have to chant to heal someone of diabetes, and how can you prove that someone WASN'T chanting with a negative, skeptical attitude? It's like saying that you can see the Emperor dressed in beautiful new clothes if you just have a pure heart...oh, you're seeing his butt flapping in the breeze? Then I guess you just don't have a pure heart, do you?

great stuff guys. That's a great idea to list former kooky things one used to believe.

I used to believe in a "sophisticated" form of New Thought, [skepdic.com] which leads you down some strange paths.
You try to believe that Thought has some kind of direct impact on the "external" world, in some spooky way. This is at the root of almost all new agey philosphies.

And as mentioned, you get into things like the Confirmation Bias [skepdic.com] and other related thinking errors.

What got me out of it, is that I REALLY tried to make it work, in a serious way, and tried some actual TESTS. As well as doing reading, like the book Demon Haunted World. [en.wikipedia.org]


In a way, CBT is a form of the same thing, as you TEST your own thinking.
So its the opposite to culty thinking, where you just try to believe.
With CBT, you take a belief, and then try to see how accurate it is. If you think about it, it really makes sense.

Just that one thing, to look for real evidence for a belief, seems to help alot.
But again, this is real evidence, not Post-Hoc fallacies, or the Confirmation Bias.
It also takes courage to be ready to give up a sacred cow belief, if it is false.

For example, if they say Chanting cures OTHERS diabetes, then they have to PROVE that, using some scientific controlled studies. But of course, it doesn't work.
but there are many in the cultic movements who don't even know what a controlled study is, or don't want to know. They just want to tell stories.

but now it great, anyone makes some Big Claim...great, then they have to prove it. Hard evidence, not stories. That works really well.

For example, they tell you that Cryonics [forum.culteducation.com] will work, so turn your assets and your dead body over to them. Give them $150K-> millions of $$ to care for your frozen dead corpse. Give them all your money to "take care" of too.
Really?
Make them show real proof that it MIGHT work. They can't, just salespitches to get your insurance policy in their company account.
They don't have the tiniest shred of real evidence that it MIGHT work, and the real evidence shows it won't work.
But they don't care, they want your money, and they will lie and print a million webpages to get it.
Some lie to themselves too.

Its the same with these other groups.
Make them PROVE it, like in science, not anecdotes and stories.
They can't do it.

Its really very powerful, just to make them prove their claims, in a real way.