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Sallie
Pegasus,
I think Keir is right on about finding ex members of your cult or a group was like yours. That ''fear of being normal'' doesn't sound crazy at all. I had that exact fear. I can so totally relate to what you are saying. Cult leaders ingrain in our minds the idea that the ''masses'' are bad. Political leaders do that to some extent. There always has to be an ''elite'' or ''better than'' crowd. To be a regular guy is somehow degrading.
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Sallie, I liked your whole post -- especially this. The Soka Gakkai also taught this...that we were the only ones practicing Buddhism correctly. Because of that, we had the honor and duty of teaching this Buddhism to the world, and bringing about kosen-rufu,or world peace. A leader told me that I was "spacing out" and "forgetting my true mission," if I ever wanted to put work, school, friends, or family obligations before going to a Soka Gakkai meeting. At times, it was irritating, guilt-tripping -- and yet, I stayed, because it was also incredibly seductive. I was part of this elite group who had the noble mission to save humanity! Sometimes I felt special, thinking that I had a great purpose. Other times, I questioned this -- but I would suppress my doubts. I wasn't ready to face them and go back to being part of the unenlightened herd.

Pegasus, I am a shy person with a lot of social anxiety. I want friends, and to be part of a group, badly -- and yet I also have a lot of fears of getting close to people. It's interesting now, to look back on my time in the Gakkai. Certainly, I was part of a group. I told myself that I had a lot of friends. I spent a lot of time with the members of our local chapter; people were calling me up all the time to go to this or that activity. I felt popular, for a time, and this also made it difficult to leave. Until I finally realized that what I had with these people was not real friendship. They were calling me because I gave other members rides to meetings, planned meetings, cleaned up our meeting place before and after meetings...they were not calling because they were truly interested in me as a person.

I was starting to see this -- and then I got really sick and needed to go to the emergency room. The two Soka Gakkai members I called wouldn't take me! One of them, a leader, told me that it wasn't convenient for her! It turned out that I was so sick that I had to have immediate emergency surgery -- and not one Soka Gakkai member could lift a finger to help me, before or after the surgery. These people, who have such a grand and glorious mission to save humanity, who congratulate themselves endlessly about how much compassion they have for the world -- these people would have left me to die on my kitchen floor! Because it wasn't CONVENIENT for them to help me that day! How inconsiderate of me to have a medical emergency on an inconvenient day!

Who helped me? Some neighbors, and friends who were NOT Soka Gakkai members -- "ordinary" people with no particular religious affiliation. THEY were the ones who showed real beauty, compassion and generosity, not those Soka Gakkai phonies! My neighbors have helped me to see that just being an ordinary decent person is beautiful.

I was VERY angry with the Gakkai for a long time. Now, I'm only somewhat angry -- and part of the anger is at myself for letting myself be conned, charmed, manipulated as I was. I feel some shame too, that I needed friends and the feeling of being special so badly that I'd join a group that I should have seen through. (I have also read, and second Sallie's recommendation to read Bradshaw's book about healing the shame. I don't think that intelligence and logic can prevent a person from getting into a cult. Where the cult leaders 'get' us is through our feelings: the desire to be loved and to make a difference, as well as fear, shame and guilt.

But I also don't want to waste my life in anger and regret. I had always been a very healthy person and then I had this medical emergency that could have killed me. Luckily, I had an excellent surgeon, and good medical care, and I am healthy again. I can have many more years of life, what a gift! That also encouraged me to make my break with the Soka Gakkai. Life is short and precious. I just couldn't waste another minute of it on SGI's nonsense! Lying in that little room in the ER, wondering if I was going to die that day...well, ordinary life started to look pretty good to me! And still does, despite the problems and frustrations.

I really appreciate everyone who posted on this thread. I have gotten so much from everyone's posts and it has also helped me to write about this. This thread is helping me to understand why I stayed in the Soka Gakkai for so many years, and why I sometimes miss it, even now, knowing what the Gakkai is really like. Cult leaders can be so good at manipulating you into thinking that what you think, see, experience and feel is not real...or somehow just doesn't count. And I was prepared to accept it because in my family, I was always wrong -- or wanting, feeling, thinking something that I wasn't "supposed" to. Bull! Why is their reality more real than mine?

And oh, this having a special mission to save the planet -- it's very seductive, it must be a lot of people's fantasy. Look at how many novels are written about the person who has a nearly impossible but crucial mission to save the world from evil. Everything from Harry Potter to military, espionage, and science fiction novels.

tsukimoto,
They wouldn't even take you to get medical attention? They would have just left you for dead because it wasn't convenient? You know that is not surprising but still...it makes me so angry to hear that. Members of my own family who are still involved in cultish activities have behaved similarly towards me and my husband and children. And to add to the insult...they say I am hate filled and unevolved because I now avoid them. Imagine that. I am so happy for you that you got away from those false gurus. In a way it sounds like your illness was the best thing that could have happened to you.

Sallie, they SAY that they would have come for me. Who knows, maybe they would have, but I wasn't willing to wait around and risk that they wouldn't. I had never been that sick, and in that kind of pain before, and I knew that something was seriously wrong. I snapped at them, "Fine, don't bother!", hung up and called a taxi. Sure, maybe they'd have come, but when you're in that kind of pain, it's hard to hear "It's not convenient for me to help you...." and have to wonder, is help ever going to come? And these were not kids who maybe just don't have the experience to understand certain things. These women were professionals in their fifties.

Yes, I do feel that the illness was a blessing in disguise. It felt awful while I was going through it, but I was just so ambivalent about leaving the group before this crisis. On one level, I saw how false it was, and yet I was just unable to make the break...and I was disgusted with myself for being so weak and indecisive. It really took something drastic like that to force me to get out -- and stay out.

Hi Kier, Sallie and Tsukimoto

Thanks for your great advice.
Sallie those were powerful words and it was good for me to hear them. When I left my cult, I was very alone and wanted to find some likeminded people. I didnt know I had been in a cult at that stage and I still felt that the way for me to relate to people was by discussing spirituality. I wanted to have real connections with people and talk about what really mattered and I had no interest in just everyday things. Without realising it I must have gone on to absorb more unhelpful ideas when I made friends with Coruse in miracles students. I had learned that my own thoughts were insignificant and I found companionship by people basically preaching to me and showing a loving kind approach to me, but with me being quite subservient and joining in with their approach. I thought I was questioning things, but only to a point; I wanted to be accepted. So I did take on that belief that the world is unreal which has been another one to get over.

After that I was interested in therapy. The other way I would feel accepted was by helping others and so I trained as a counsellor. That training was very helpful actually in understanding myself and it was good sound training. I also had some good counselling myself and made some healthy changes in my life. However we had one teacher who didnt have such clear professional boundaries with the students which included workshops at her house with very deep group exercies and talking to students in her bedroom during the night. She also was very loving and seemed to really care about us. So once again the boundaries were not healthy and I was drawn into following her style of psychotherapy probably because I was getting that family bonding that I always wanted. It came at a price however when her work with me ended up with me feeling extremely exposed in a long psychotherapy weekend with much overexpression of feelings and personal issues. I was told I was 'fragmented' and there were decidedly serious connotations : that I would need much work to be fixed.

Once again I had allowed someone else to be in control of what I thought and what I should do. I felt bad in the course of miracles group when I 'made something in my life real' and I felt bad in this group because I needed fixing.

I am a slow learner I guess, but I think by now I have realised that I am not going to let anyone else take over my thinking and my choosing of my own philosophy of life. I finally got it!

Tsukimoto, I also had a difficult family background. Not terrible, but I too usually felt I was wrong and tried to keep my parents happy. I guess I needed to have had the message from my parents that I could be liked just as I am and with my own opinions. I read that there is a difference between approval and acceptance. My parents disapproved of my choices and opinions but didnt accept them I think. Their disapproval meant that I was wrong. Even if I still did what I wanted to, I usually felt wrong. I think that in a healthy family a parent may not approve of a childs choice, but would accept it (within reason) And I mean properly accept it, so that the child felt they were ok when they made their own choices and when they choose differently to their parents.

So we need to feel ok when we are different from others and feel that we are acceptable being our own individual self, I guess.
I still have trouble feeling this and I usually distrust that others will accept me fully. Hence I have the habits of relating thru helping others or following them.

Tsukimoto, I admired the way you left your group even though you still wanted the belonging. I also have craved that feeling of belonging very much and still havent found a good way to meet that need for the loving family I didnt have. I never left my group, I was told to leave. That is significant because I didnt make the choice and went on for a long time still half following it in my own way and feeling like a failure.

The way I left was that my guru told us to write to him anytime we had a problem. I found I was getting doubts about some aspects of the group and so I wrote to him asking him to take them away. (Doubt was considered a terrible impurity and he was supposed to take away all our impurities if we let him. I didnt think the doubtful thoughts were true; I thought I was impure for having such a terrible thing as doubt).
Anyway instead of taking it away, he told me to leave. He actually said that 'if you are in a club and they no longer want you in that club, you have to go'. I was in America working for him at the time and had to immediately pack and fly home to my home country. The night I stayed there before flying out all my friends who stayed in the house with me wouldnt talk to me at all, due to my terrible impurity. I was in shock for some time but I didnt blame them because i also thought I must be impure.

It was hard losing what I thought of as my family as they would never speak to me again. I still do feel those people were my family and I felt close to them. I feel lonely now as I have not found that level of closeness again. I hope to make more friends but still have to remember that people outside my group are not totally different to me, that I can find companionship. I am trying to figure out how to meet people that I will be able to connect with, but that who wont have a new cult for me to take on!
In my country I have not been able to find any excult members as yet.

I am very much enjoying everyones posts, thank you all


Sallie, you said that we begin to diminish ourselves by turning inward too much. What that means for me is that I put value on introspection, but not on doing regular everyday activies becasue they are not 'spiritual'. In this way I have split everything up into spiritual and non spiritual things and it is no doubt unhealthy to not have a good balance

Pegasus

Hi Pegasus,
Just want to let you know that the ''turning inward'' I referred to was the ''Course in Miracles'' type. I think that you are introspective but it seems to be a very good thing in your case. I always thought self analysis and introspection was a step towards self improvement and growth. The self centered response of the women who would not help Tsukimoto is what I would describe as women who had ''turned inward'' too much.
I also became interested in therapy and studied psychology in school and saw a counselor. I actually thought that much of what I read in ''Course in Miracles'' was nothing different than what I had been learning in school. I don't believe the author was god as the writer claims. I believe the writer took the same psyche courses that many of us did and wrote a book using some of what he learned and falsely claimed it was from god. I don't see the things that Course in Miracles promotes as introspection and self analysis....I see it as a perversion of introspection. I'm sure you know more about the teachings than I do. I would love to hear your opinion. Do you see the Course exercises as promoting selfishness? My own opinions are based on my own subjective experience. I have noticed people who claim that they are inwardly and spiritually perfect, based on the Course exercises, have no love or concern for the rest of humanity. I see people who have gotten to this point(my own siblings), as small and socially useless. In there own created realities they are mega spirits but when interacting with humanity...they are like the women Tsukimoto describes.
You mention that you want to keep a balance between spiritual and non spiritual. I see that as very healthy. My family members would view the situation Tsukimoto described as non-spiritual. In other words if a person were in need they would say that person ''chose'' the illness or ''needs to learn something from it''...etc...etc... and they would see there own existence and reality as spiritual and they would see getting in the car to drive someone to the hospital as a break in there spiritual walk/day/reality.
But my family is using Course lingo as only one of their verbal tools. They are involved with other stuff as well.
And you know what else I noticed with my family members who are into this stuff...I noticed that the more selfish you are...the higher you climb on their spiritual ladder. It's almost like...if you see a flaw in yourself then there must be something wrong with you. On the other hand, if you see yourself as perfect then you are perfect.
Maybe you can shed some light on the subject for me. I really am basing my opinions on my two siblings who ascribe to this book and on the reading I did many years ago.

Hi Sallie
Im not sure if I would use the word 'selfish' to describe the CIM followers myself, but I can see what you mean. Because they see all things except a generalised view of love and oneness to be unreal then they would not believe our human everyday problems are actually real. Of course people take this belief to different levels, not everyone would be so extreme. I did meet a 'teacher' who was revered as pretty much enlightened as far as I could understand and he had a kind of apathy about him. He was always peaceful, and never reacted to anything, maintaining a detached, peaceful type of air. He did have a peaceful feeling about him at times, I had lunch with him and felt an atmosphere of very relaxing peace, which surprised me. But also he was not taking part in theworld, except to give talks and try to teach about CIM. Maybe he really was beyond it all, but to me there was a lack of energy somehow in him as well. He relied on donations and just moved around being fed and cared for by weathy followers. Being non attached is good, but this seemed to be an example of taking it too far, into indifference and not caring. Also he couldnt show any negative emotions of course because that would not be spiritual. The idea is to rely on the Holy spirit all the time and let go of yourself to HIm, where all is always perfect. He did seem fairly attached to his email/computer though!

I guess theres a seed of truth there, but it has been interpreted and expanded into some unhealthy areas. And yes, the psychotherapy style also has helpful parts and is really similar to mainstream psychotherapy too.

For me right now, I am consciously choosing to find some ways to take part more in life with everyday people. It is an ongoing struggle however to cope with my automatic habit of feeling disconnected and thinking that I am different from others and wont be able to relate to them. I thought I had to be perfect to be accepted, and now I know that I am not perfect, I fear that others wont want me. The cult people wanted me when I believed the same as them and others have wanted me when I helped them. Its very new for me to consider people will accept me even when I have different opinions to them and just as I am, even if I am not sacrificing myself to help them in some way.

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pegasus
For me right now, I am consciously choosing to find some ways to take part more in life with everyday people. It is an ongoing struggle however to cope with my automatic habit of feeling disconnected and thinking that I am different from others and wont be able to relate to them. I thought I had to be perfect to be accepted, and now I know that I am not perfect, I fear that others wont want me. The cult people wanted me when I believed the same as them and others have wanted me when I helped them. Its very new for me to consider people will accept me even when I have different opinions to them and just as I am, even if I am not sacrificing myself to help them in some way.

I have felt this way too -- that I had to be perfect to be liked or loved, and that I needed to earn love by doing things for others nonstop. My parents let me know early on that I wasn't living up to their expectations -- I wasn't the always-cheerful, helpful, pretty, angelic daughter that they felt they deserved, As an adult, I sometimes still feel that I fall so short of my own expectations, and that I'm so flawed, who'd want me?

Yet I'm also reminded of something that my grandfather, a respected teacher and principal, used to say. He said that people who were brilliant, and learned everything easily, were usually terrible teachers! Because they grasped everything so quickly and effortlessly -- they couldn't understand that many of their students couldn't do this. These teachers would become angry and frustrated with students who couldn't learn challenging new concepts and skills immediately -- and didn't know how to help them. Grandpa said that teachers who had to struggle a bit to learn new material could empathize with their students' struggles and frustration. These teachers were more likely to know how to encourage a struggling student, and how to find another way to help the student learn.

I like to think that our lives outside of school are like that too. If life's been difficult for you, then you can understand someone else's difficulties, and encourage them rather than judge them. I find that the people who are most judgemental and belittling of others -- are the ones who cannot accept their own mistakes. Looking back, I can see now that I wasn't a bad kid -- my parents were just afraid that others would look at me, and say that they were bad parents. They couldn't admit that they just didn't know what to do sometimes, as parents. So they had to act like they were perfect and the problem was all me. I think we'd have been much closer, and a happier family, if they could have just faced that they didn't always know what to do. If they could have accepted that they were going to make mistakes. Maybe it's our desire for perfection that separates us from people...not our faults.

Hi Tsukimoto
Yes I too think that every quality serves and limits, if you like. One person may be empathetic and sensitive to others needs making them a good listener and perceptive. On the negative that quality may mean they are shy or have difficulty taking their own place in things, focusing too much on others wants and needs. Another person may be much more socially confident, be able to have more fun and communicate their thoughts well, but may be less considerate of others or not so able to understand others and therefore dismiss them or not bother to try and work out problems with them.
Perhaps our individual qualities all have their up and down sides to them. the grass always looks greener tho doesnt it?
Today I am aware of the difficulty I have in feeling vulnerable and childlike when I see someone else has a different opinion on what the truth is. Someone told me something that I dont agree with anymore, but yet I found it hard to say that in a mature way. From my cult days there was only one truth and everyone agreed on it. Now people have different ideas and I feel like saying - you're wrong! - to them, or else I doubt my own idea and think I must be wrong. I fear that I cant have a different opinion, voice it maturely and still be accepted by them. I know to say what I think and say that that is for me, not that it is the only truth, but I feel so childlike - I think things like, they wont like me anymore if I say that, or I dont like her because she doesnt understand what I mean. I am ashamed to have such a childlike reaction.
The cult world was so easy with its one absolute truth. I feel I am quite far behind people not in a cult in terms of feeling ok about being different from others.
Also this perfectionistic attitude you talk about is also a problem for me. If I say something to someone that I later regret, I feel so bad about it. I fear they wont like me anymore and again I feel very upset. It seems I have quite an over reaction. I think I will be rejected if I make a mistake. But I do make a lot of mistakes and wish I had said things differently.
Perhaps some of this stems from my cult rejecting me when I showed doubts about their rules. Maybe I supressed those feelings and fear of that rejection still comes out now. I dont know.

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pegasus
Today I am aware of the difficulty I have in feeling vulnerable and childlike when I see someone else has a different opinion on what the truth is. Someone told me something that I dont agree with anymore, but yet I found it hard to say that in a mature way. From my cult days there was only one truth and everyone agreed on it. Now people have different ideas and I feel like saying - you're wrong! - to them, or else I doubt my own idea and think I must be wrong. I fear that I cant have a different opinion, voice it maturely and still be accepted by them. I know to say what I think and say that that is for me, not that it is the only truth, but I feel so childlike - I think things like, they wont like me anymore if I say that, or I dont like her because she doesnt understand what I mean. I am ashamed to have such a childlike reaction.

I think a lot of that is just being human. I think we all have a bit of child inside us, whether we're 30, 50 or 80. Mammals, especially humans, are dependent on their parents for a much longer time than any other animal. A child can't survive on his or her own -- and must try to please Mommy and Daddy, no matter how unreasonable their expectations may be. Even as adults, nobody can survive totally on his or her own...we all need some caring and companionship from others as well as practical help. We can't help wanting to be accepted, liked, and admired, and to fit in. It's a survival mechanism, and yet it can also go badly wrong. Psychologists like Zimbardo and Millgram have done experiments and found that people will do very hurtful things (or what they believe to be hurtful) to conform to peers or obey an authority figure. During riots, normally law-abiding people will loot or commit violence because everyone else is doing that. So don't blame yourself because it bothers you when you've got to disagree with someone. You have a lot of company.

I think that all we can really do about this is just try to be aware of ourselves -- which you're doing. For me, I just say, "Okay, I'm feeling anxious about having to say something that I'm afraid my friend, relative, co-worker, won't like." I don't try not to be anxious, I just feel the way I feel and the anxiety eventually passes, like the weather. I ask myself, "Is this a reasonable thing to say? Am I saying it tactfully?" If I think about it later, and I still feel that I was rude, I might ask the person if they felt I was being rude. Quite often, they don't think I was rude -- in fact, there are those who find it interesting to talk to a person who has a different opinion, and they're bored if you always agree with them.

Chances are, most other people won't judge you as harshly as you may judge yourself. (Or as the leaders in your cult judged you.)

Tsukimoto and Pegasus thank you both because your posts are making me realize how, 25 years later, I am still being affected by cult brainwashing. I was just recently in a situation where my ''overly polite'' tendencies left me as a victim to a very slanderous and mean spirited woman. I now realize that while many people had the good sense to keep a distance from this woman, I allowed her to pry into my affairs and insult people who I loved. Only when she went after one of my children did I speak my mind and...at that point...I became so emotional that I tried to leave the group of people I was working with. I regressed into (accept or flee or be rejected) mode. While I am still working with this group I have become so angry towards this person. It's because of my cult upbringing that I allowed this woman to cross boundaries in the first place. I realize that now. Interesting.