I've had no desire to meditate since leaving my spiritual teacher. I wanted to throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were, and, for good measure, throw out the bathtub, the soap, towels, etc.! For several years I did meditation practices that focused my breathing, and now, in any random moment of inner quiet, I find my attention going to my breath.This would not be a "bad" habit except that an awareness--let's say a thought or image--of my former teacher immediately follows. For years, I would synchronize my breathing rate with hers as a way of merging with her. There was so much of this quiet intimacy, of just sitting and breathing together, that it feels like I must have been conditioned to associate the inner quiet with her.
It's a problem because: a) I still have to breathe and, b) I want to live my own life and not have her in it. There are times, for example, just before falling asleep, when I find myself quietly aware of inhaling and exhaling, and then I remember the former teacher, and then I have to rouse myself to shake off the trance. I left one and a half years ago and this is still going on.
Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

My hunch is this will eventually fade. If you treat this as something to get curious about 'Oh, that again', and treat it as an experiment, not something to get anxious about, maybe this will help. If you are curious about something, it loses its power over you. Usually fear and curiosity cannot co-exist.

In cults and cultic relationships, play and curiosity fade away, because fear takes over.

A way to change your relationship with this woman is to intentionally adopt a stance of curiosity whenever her image visits you. Be a savvy, alert scientist in relation to this image. That way, it cant control you.

If this doesnt help, I'd really recommend checking with an exit counselor--you guys were involved for 18 years--thats a long time.

**As you recover, you may uncover more material, more hooks.

It can take a very long time for these implanted associations to fade. For years, and I mean years, I would walk past the church where my former (cultic) spiritual director had his office. I'd always think of him. Ditto when walking past the street where he and his wife lived.

(Yeah, boundary violations galore. We socialized outside of office hours)

Finally, years into recovery, I walked by the church and realized 2 blocks afterward, that I'd not thought of X. Progress!

And as for the street where X once lived, by a fluke, I got to know a great woman who lives on that same street and has terrific Christmas parties at her place--with a pirate theme.

Now, I walk past this street and instead of thinking of X, I think of J and her pirate parties!

My post got nuked before i saved it, so this is going to be too short for such a complex subject.

I would suggest using CBT and REBT to consciously CHANGE these images in your mind.

I would not suggest you wait around for them to dissipate randomly.

You can go right after them.
Using the techniques of CBT, and REBT, and also IRRT( Imagery Rescripting and Reprocessing Therapy), you go right into the Image, Mental Movie, internal dialouge, and you CHANGE IT.

Very quickly you can have relief, and can tranform these automatic-thoughts in a very short period of time, using repetition.
There are some books listed up in this thread, but seeing a good CBT therapist is the best.

Bottom line, is you can vigorously kick her out of your mind.
What would you do if she was in your livingroom?
You would throw her out!
So you need to throw her out of your mind too, and CHANGE those images, thoughts, words, that are popping up automatically.

Do not just wait around for them to vanish.
You need to do the exact opposite, and go after it.

You control your own mind, and you can get the junk out of it that you don't want in there.
There are literally dozens of techniques you can use, but it takes lots of practice, and training to learn how to do it, but it can be done.

The worst thing you can do is to avoid thinking about these things, or to wait passively for them to vanish. That can just make it worse.
Do the exact opposite, and you can clear her out of your mind in a reasonable period of time.

This type of thing is a TOTAL cognitive self-fulfilling prophecy.

Coz

Quote
Leah Gans
I've had no desire to meditate since leaving my spiritual teacher. I wanted to throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were, and, for good measure, throw out the bathtub, the soap, towels, etc.! For several years I did meditation practices that focused my breathing, and now, in any random moment of inner quiet, I find my attention going to my breath.This would not be a "bad" habit except that an awareness--let's say a thought or image--of my former teacher immediately follows. For years, I would synchronize my breathing rate with hers as a way of merging with her. There was so much of this quiet intimacy, of just sitting and breathing together, that it feels like I must have been conditioned to associate the inner quiet with her.
It's a problem because: a) I still have to breathe and, b) I want to live my own life and not have her in it. There are times, for example, just before falling asleep, when I find myself quietly aware of inhaling and exhaling, and then I remember the former teacher, and then I have to rouse myself to shake off the trance. I left one and a half years ago and this is still going on.
Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

Leah,

I absolutely agree with Cosmo. Kick her out. Replace her in your mind. Connect your breathing to another image or experience - a positive one. Patience and determination and practice are all you will need.

Sylvia

I'm not an expert on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy -- Cosmo can evaluate this---

Instead of 'kicking her out'--imagine yawning each time her image pops up.

Gurus hate the idea that someone could ever be bored by them.

If you have intrusive memories of her that are spooking you, try a real, physical yawn--it produces a relaxation response.

I once attended a lecture by very boring, scary guru and every time I started to zone out, I'd think of some favorite poop jokes. (I happen to like potty humor--other people may have other tastes--what you want is something funny and subversive).

Each time I thought of some favorite disgusting humor, I'd be silently amused, this would trigger my inner vitality, and also give me a sense of freedom.

If you try all our suggestions and they dont help, then its a smart idea to check with a professional. Keep a journal and see which methods work for you.

Good luck!

Sure, yawning is a good idea. My guess is the thought behind this is "you bore the crap out of me! Get lost!!".

Its always the "cognition" behind the behavior that counts.

But in REBT, they have "Rational Emotive Imagery", which is a stroke of genius.
It has to be studied, and explained carefully, but the bottom line is you take a toxic mental image, and LET it overwhelm you for a set time, and then you DELIBERATELY change the image in your mind, and how you are feeling, until you feel ok. So you go from feeling horrible, to either feeling ok, good, or not too bad, ON PURPOSE.

You do this everyday, for 30 days, for a set time period.

By the end of 30 days, or way before, that toxic image is permanently modified.
Of course, there is much more to it than that.

I am just throwing out the idea that there are specific interventions one can do to get over this stuff in WEEKS.
This is not hype, and not BS, but it takes proper training and technique, and is not foolproof, of course.

We can get most of that garbage out of our brain, if we go about it the right way.

But again, this stuff is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you think, "i am permanently damaged, and my guru wrecked my life and my mind...." well, then guess what?
But if you can think, "i learned lots of crappy stuff from that phony guru, and got tricked, but now i can get that junk out of my brain, and get my life back, and create happiness one day at a time, etc", then you are in much better shape.

This cognitive stuff is VERY TRICKY, as your beliefs about it, affect the results you get.
Your ideas about what is going on with you, affect what is going on with you.
So you have to be very careful about what you think about what happened to you, and what it means now and in the future.

Because basically whatever you deeply believe the effects are, are going to be the effects you experience, on a secondary symptomatic level. Your own beliefs about your symptoms, can create more symptoms, and make the original symptoms worse, and this can flip into a vicious cycle.

Subtle stuff.

Coz

I think his name is either David or Daniel Burns and Ive been hearing a lot of good reports on his books--have you used his stuff?

I think he writes about CBT.

My guess is a two-pronged approach is needed: First to appreciate the extent to which the power-holder abused his or her power by lying and intruding into your thought processes. Its important to recognized this was done to you, because its valuable to feel angry and understand that this was WRONG.

But once you've understood that the power-holder intruded upon your inner life and sprayed graffiti on it, and if despite your new, healthy iyou, and you find you're still trapped in the memories that person implanted--then thats when CBT is useful. First, reclaim emotions and boundaries. Then, 'de-bug' your mind.

We're getting into an area where, if someone fails to feel relief from these methods, he or she should go see a professional, especially if involved with a group or leader who was sophisticated in using trance and very stressful room settings. Anything that uses trance or stresses the body hits us in some very deep unconscious places, and thats where professional counseling is often needed to fully complete the 'de-bugging' process.

Getting back to our discussion of useful first aid:

A yawn pruduces a physiological relaxation response which would be a nifty way to supplement the cognitive 'de-bugging' process.

Secretly relishing a latrine joke while watching a bully guru rant and rave onstage is another way to trigger a physiological relaxtion response that's linked to a very freeing mental image.

Along with what Coz suggested, the person doing the CBT exercise should keep a journal, just the way we are advised to keep a training and diet diary when embarking upon a disciplined program of athletic training.

Coz if you've read or used any of Burns' books, tell us which ones seemed most useful--and especially which one/s would be most user friendly if someone is anxious or having trouble concentrating.

Published this on both the NRM and the LGATs thread.

[board.culteducation.com]

See if any of these were used on you--identifying how we've been manipulated is very important in designing a recovery program.

Here is a small exerpt from the article describing effects of trance:

In trance, memories, fantansies, feelings and thoughts are often experienced more vividly and intensely than they are in the normal "waking" state (Hilgard, 1981). If a person is unaware of being in trance, or is unfamiliar or unconvinced of the phenomenon of hypnotic enhancement of perception, fantasy and suggestibility, then that person is likely to attribute the vividness and intensity of the trance experience to some special characteristic of the message and/or communicator. That is, the person links his/her feelings of intensity with what has been said or who has said it, not with how (ie. hypnotically) it was said. The message is therefore experienced as "more real" or "more true" than other messages, and the communicator of the message is endowed with extraordinary (or even supernatural) characteristics or skills.

Hypnosis involves powerful transference. ([i:825ea98cc4]That is, you feel as trustful and bonded to the hypnotist as you would to the people who cared for you when you were a tiny child--powerful stuff!!! Corboy[/i:825ea98cc4]) The induction process involves establishing and utilizing rapport, and hypnosis is perhaps first and foremost an interpersonal process (Fromm, 1979). Most subjects, after being hypnotized, feel closer, more trusting, and more positively about their operator than before. It is always more difficult to objectively assess someone (or what that someone says) after a powerful transference relationship has developed.

Since this section deals with recovery, here is the exerpt of methods we can use to identify illicit use of trance:

"Paraphrase other peoples' thoughts both aloud and to yourself to see if you're understanding clearly." Dr. Zimbardo and his associate, Susan Andersen, recommend that if a message, book or lecture is difficult to understand, repeating the central points in one's own words might help (Andersen & Zimbardo, 1980). Ask questions. If the answer is equally or more puzzling, a mental "beware" alarm should sound. The same alarm should go off if the answer is something like "well, you will understand more later" or "of course you can't understand now, you're too [nonspiritual, unenlightened, intellectual, ignorant, materialistic, rigid, unaware, unconnected with your feelings, etc.]."

Do not relate personal experiences, thoughts or feelings, or make any kind of confession that may be harmful should the information be released, Anderson and Zimbardo (1980) warn. Confidentiality is not automatic: nonlicensed/noncredentialed therapists and their clients may not come under the protection of state doctor-patient confidentiality laws. [i:825ea98cc4]Groups or individuals that pressure people to reveal personal information may be acting unethically. [/i:825ea98cc4]

Put off any and all decisions until after the group experience is over, and then decide only after obtaining other information or consulting with trusted confidants.

Outside interests and social contacts are vital, state Zimbardo and Anderson, and any group that makes an overt or subtle appeal to sever these bonds should be rejected. These outside sources are usually instrumental in providing reality-oriented feedback, and in helping to maintain a sense of personal continuity (ie. a sense of knowing "where I came from").

Any group or individual that arouses guilt (we can add bliss, lust, fear, greed and shame to this list--Corboy) to an uncomfortable level should be carefully checked out and probably avoided.

Have at least one good friend who is a "natural born" skeptic or critic. Or, if in a possible mind control situation already, seek out known "doubters" within that group. Put off feeling guilty about doubts for a day or two; discuss doubts [i:825ea98cc4]now[/i:825ea98cc4].

Seek outside information before joining or making a commitment to a group. [i:825ea98cc4]This may be the single most important guideline to follow[/i:825ea98cc4]. Read or listen to critical arguments. If the group claims to be a religion, speak to nonmember clergy or contact the local university's theology department or divinity school and ask about it; if it claims to be a therapy or self-awareness group, contact the local or state Psychiatric or Psychological Association and ask for information, references and research on the group and/or the methods it uses. If the group seems like it might be cultic, contact the American Family Foundation (phone: 941-514-3081).

These organizations are responsible and can act as guides to information that may be difficult to locate on one's own. They can also usually find former members of the group in question for in-person or telephone consultation. Become familiar with the literature on deception (some of which makes for highly entertaining reading!). The field of spiritualism and paranormal/parapsychological research has been so riddled with deception and fraud that the Parapsychological Association itself has formerly admitted to the need for "fraud checks." A number of professional magicians, most noteably James Randi ("The Amazing Randi") have made careers out of debunking fraudulent and shoddy research on the paranormal, and have exposed the deceptive tactics employed by scores of well-known "psychics." The Parapsychological Association now recommends that scientists consult magicians when designing experiments to test for psychic and spiritualistic abilities, in large part because scientists are not particularly better than the average person at seeing through deceptions.

Finally, self-knowledge -- the ability to (with some objectivity) observe and reflect on one's own behavior--and a sense of humor about oneself and others allows for greater independence in general, and increased freedom of thought in particular. Most cults discourage self-reflective thought (it is too "intellectual," "egotistical," "nonspiritual," "negative," and/or "selfish") in favor of "feeling" or "listening to the heart." In contrast, nontotalitarian groups are characterized by open questioning of authority and leadership.

Think back to situations in which you have felt pressured or covertly influenced. How did it feel? In retrospect, what were some possible warning sig

Think back to situations in which you have felt pressured or covertly influenced. How did it feel? [i:825ea98cc4]In retrospect, what were some possible warning signs (e.g. disorientation, confusion, anxiety, guilt, sadness, embarassment) that a deception was about to occur? These signs can be "warning bells" to protect against future deceptions. [/i:825ea98cc4]

What is intimacy? What does it mean to be a friend? Do true and lasting friendships come instantly, or are they built, sometimes in struggle and/or pain? What is love? When is love unconditional? Is it possible to be completely open, or to love instantly, or completely, or equally? Think back to the past in order to begin to answer these questions.

Be familiar with trance experience; know what hypnosis feels like and experience a variety of inductions. Again, these feelings can serve as an "early warning system," as clues that one has been in hypnosis. Hypnosis can then serve as an alternative explanation for "mystical" or "psychic" experiences that may have been manipulated. No two people feel exactly the same under hypnosis; everyone has a unique response.
Recall previous experiences with deception (e.g. magic shows).

Be aware that people are in general easily fooled, and that most if not all "supernatural powers" are easily reproduced by magicians/illusionists. The world is full of mysteries, but what seems to be impossible to explain does not necessarily mean it can not be explained by conventional logic or "mundane" science. Remember how impossible many magic tricks appear to be! What if the magician claimed to be a prophet, and that his "powers" were in fact "gifts from God" and thus proof of divine status? Absurd, perhaps, but it is the rare mystic or cult leader who can perform more than the most basic "mind reading" tricks, yet they continue to attract followers who are convinced of their guru's "divine nature."

[I'll send this while it's on my mind, and then reading your latest posting, Corboy, when I get home from work.]

Thanks, guys, for the information and your suggestions. I have some experience with Buddhist practices, so my initial response was to get curious about my former teacher showing up in my thoughts/feelings. I've explored it like any other pain. One night I had an insight that led me to expand my reading to include books about countertransference and boundary violations. I now have a growing understanding of the specific dynamics between us, and how I probably couldn't have responded any other way to the situation, given my history and my own needs at that time. I highly recommend the Temerlins' two articles to anyone exploring this angle.
I've just adopted a two year old, toy poodle (the extent of responsibility I feel comfortable taking on) and now at night I distract myself with his breathing. He provides numerous opportunities to playfully distance myself from the past. We've been brushing up on his housetraining, and one time when I was encouraging him to relieve himself outdoors, I inadvertently said, "Sam! Pee here now!" (Ram Dass was approved reading.) I sometimes carry the dog around town in a small shoulder bag while running errands, and I feel delighted to have gone from ascetic to Zsa Zsa Gabor in a mere year and a half! And there are all those dyslexic god-into-dog jokes...
Still, I'd like to know more about CBT and the other BT's, Coz, if you can recommend some titles.

CBT has worked great for me, and has basically saved my bacon, and continues to save my bacon daily.
I do what are called “Thought Records”, and these can literally allow one to manage one’s feelings and behaviors on a daily basis. Of course, there are different strokes for different folks, but it has worked wonders for me.
Here is a pretty good intro to CBT. [www.cognitivetherapy.com]

The BEST intro book to CBT is called “Mind Over Mood” by Greenberger and Padesky. It’s a great workbook, nice and simple, and very powerful. It explains how to do a Thoght Record, and lots of other stuff.

Dr. Aaron Beck is the founder of CBT [www.beckinstitute.org]
Any book by Beck is good, and some of his work is very technical, but not his popular books.
A good intro is “Cognitive Therapy and the Emotional Disorders”.

Dr. David Burns was a student of Beck’s, and he is totally legit.
[www.feelinggood.com]
You can get his books used for a few bucks from a used book store.
“Feeling Good” and “The Feeling Good Handbook” are terrific books.

Also helpful is REBT, from Dr. Albert Ellis
[www.rebt.org]

So, getting the Burns books are a good introduction.
The key here though, is to get some CBT therapy for maybe 16 sessions, and to get it from someone who is PROPERLY TRAINED and knows what they are doing. Once you go through 12-16 sessions, then you basically don’t need a therapist, and can do a lot of work on your own. (of course, this doesn’t apply to personality disorders).

Once you become proficient in CBT, then you can manage your own thinking, emotions, behavior and core beliefs.
Its not about “positive thinking”. Its about thinking realistically. Its about getting into our Cognitions, Emotions, Beliefs, and modifying them if they are Distorted.
CBT contadicts conventional psychotherapy in many ways, but on the other hand many of the tools of CBT are being intergrated into many different psychotherapies.
I could write a book right here about why I think CBT is so effective, but it has been shown in hundreds of scientific studies to work quite well. [www.beckinstitute.org]

Of course, different things work for different people.

Coz