Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
ezdoesit
()
Date: August 17, 2006 02:38AM
Quote
barabara
Interestingly enough, (to me, anyway), I know more people personally who claim to have been healed of their problems with addiction and alcoholism through involvement in recognized cults, (in particular ISKCON and its splinter sects, fundamentalist Christian cults, the Moonies, and EST), than I do people who say they actually recovered in AA.
...Commonly referred to as "rotating addictions," in the biz, I am told. Anyone reading up a bit on cults has seen the comparison between a cult involvement and an addiction to drugs or alcohol.
EZ
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 17, 2006 02:41AM
An interesting book to read about this would be...
Craving for Ecstasy : How Our Passions Become Addictions and What We Can Do About Them by Harvey Milkman, Stanley Sunderwirth
See [www.amazon.com]
"The chemistry and psychology of addiction are described with considerable insight. These authors know their stuff, and they make a compelling case. . . .All in all, Craving for Ecstasy is a challenging, well-considered analysis." (Los Angeles Times)
"Milkman and Sunderwirth offer a new and different perspective from which to understand a very complex and confusing pattern of human behavior. Their ideas are vibrant, provocative, stimulating and, written for a public that is demanding a better explanation." (Howard J. Shaffer, director of the Center for Addiction Studies, Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School and The Cambridge Hospital)
Craving for Ecstasy : How Our Passions Become Addictions and What We Can Do About Them by Harvey Milkman, Stanley Sunderwirth
See [www.amazon.com]
"The chemistry and psychology of addiction are described with considerable insight. These authors know their stuff, and they make a compelling case. . . .All in all, Craving for Ecstasy is a challenging, well-considered analysis." (Los Angeles Times)
"Milkman and Sunderwirth offer a new and different perspective from which to understand a very complex and confusing pattern of human behavior. Their ideas are vibrant, provocative, stimulating and, written for a public that is demanding a better explanation." (Howard J. Shaffer, director of the Center for Addiction Studies, Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School and The Cambridge Hospital)
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 17, 2006 02:45AM
rrmoderator:
This may seem like quibbling, but I assure you this is not my intention.
There are those who are experts in the study of cults, and there are those who are intimately aware of what the 12 step programs entail.
I consider myself to be fairly expert in AA philosophy and procedure, having been immersed in the program for years as a participant.
Yet, it seems to me that you have been saying my experiences are not the norm, which implies that you are more expert than I in what is involved in being an AA member.
I am skeptical in regards to that.
Do your acquaintances who are AA members confirm my assertions that the steps and the Big Book are intrinsic parts of the program of AA?
The AA website does, if you read past the first page.
I can't and won't insist that you say whether or not you are yourself an AA member, as I realize that there would be reason for you not to reveal this fact if true.
However, if you were a member, your interpretation of the program would seem more authentic, to me at least.
Colter, whom I consider to be a valid AA expert, confirms my experience in nearly every detail, although his interpretations of the usefulness of the theology and his stated reaction to it are diametrically opposed to my own.
And, once again, please, what are the qualifications of a "cult expert"?
This may seem like quibbling, but I assure you this is not my intention.
There are those who are experts in the study of cults, and there are those who are intimately aware of what the 12 step programs entail.
I consider myself to be fairly expert in AA philosophy and procedure, having been immersed in the program for years as a participant.
Yet, it seems to me that you have been saying my experiences are not the norm, which implies that you are more expert than I in what is involved in being an AA member.
I am skeptical in regards to that.
Do your acquaintances who are AA members confirm my assertions that the steps and the Big Book are intrinsic parts of the program of AA?
The AA website does, if you read past the first page.
I can't and won't insist that you say whether or not you are yourself an AA member, as I realize that there would be reason for you not to reveal this fact if true.
However, if you were a member, your interpretation of the program would seem more authentic, to me at least.
Colter, whom I consider to be a valid AA expert, confirms my experience in nearly every detail, although his interpretations of the usefulness of the theology and his stated reaction to it are diametrically opposed to my own.
And, once again, please, what are the qualifications of a "cult expert"?
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 17, 2006 02:56AM
ezdoesit:
Actually, I have listened to many of these people while they spoke in great detail abouit their religious experience, and their contention was always that belief in and worship of God was what provided recovery for them, within their chosen religious organization, cult or not.
Invariably, none of them saw their religion of choice as a cult, either, as do few if any current AA members feel AA is a cult.
Quite a few people have used a similar analogy when referring to those who go to several meetings a week.
If my memory serves me, some of the people who have made this observation have been avid AA-ers as well.
Perhaps even some of the people on this forum, but I'd have to go back and re-read every post to be certain. I think colter mentioned this, and added that alcoholics tend to "overdo" everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, because I assure you that is not my intention, but the name "ezdoesit" is also an AA slogan.
Am I wrong to speculate that you are yourself an AA member?
If so, we could dialog about personal experiences within the program and exchange interpretations.
Understand that I am not trying to invade your privacy and I have complete respect for everyone's right to anonymity.
Quote
...Commonly referred to as "rotating addictions," in the biz, I am told. Anyone reading up a bit on cults has seen the comparison between a cult involvement and an addiction to drugs or alcohol.
Actually, I have listened to many of these people while they spoke in great detail abouit their religious experience, and their contention was always that belief in and worship of God was what provided recovery for them, within their chosen religious organization, cult or not.
Invariably, none of them saw their religion of choice as a cult, either, as do few if any current AA members feel AA is a cult.
Quite a few people have used a similar analogy when referring to those who go to several meetings a week.
If my memory serves me, some of the people who have made this observation have been avid AA-ers as well.
Perhaps even some of the people on this forum, but I'd have to go back and re-read every post to be certain. I think colter mentioned this, and added that alcoholics tend to "overdo" everything.
Please don't take this as an insult, because I assure you that is not my intention, but the name "ezdoesit" is also an AA slogan.
Am I wrong to speculate that you are yourself an AA member?
If so, we could dialog about personal experiences within the program and exchange interpretations.
Understand that I am not trying to invade your privacy and I have complete respect for everyone's right to anonymity.
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 17, 2006 03:11AM
barabara:
I am not, nor have I ever been an AA member.
I did attend some meetings of 12-step programs before recommending them to former Jewish prisoners through the social service agency I worked at during the 1980s.
Our staff psychologist and caseworkers were also involved in this process.
Those that attended such programs generally benefited from the support system and did well.
A good measurement of a cult expert generally would be how often that person has lectured on the subject, been sought and/or featured as an expert. And perhaps the most objective measurement might be how often he or she has been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in court.
The background of cult experts varies.
Some began as anti-cult activists, some are former cult members, some are mental health professionals some are academics and others are a mix of the above.
Years of direct professional experience might also be a good measurement of the weight of that expertise.
But generally if someone is a well-regarded expert they are sought as such for an opinion in their area of expertise, frequently quoted as such and known for that expertise.
Neither Peele or Schaler meet such criteria as cult experts. And I don't recall them claiming to be cult experts.
They do have very strong opinions about AA, which generally coincide with those you have expressed at this forum.
I am not, nor have I ever been an AA member.
I did attend some meetings of 12-step programs before recommending them to former Jewish prisoners through the social service agency I worked at during the 1980s.
Our staff psychologist and caseworkers were also involved in this process.
Those that attended such programs generally benefited from the support system and did well.
A good measurement of a cult expert generally would be how often that person has lectured on the subject, been sought and/or featured as an expert. And perhaps the most objective measurement might be how often he or she has been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in court.
The background of cult experts varies.
Some began as anti-cult activists, some are former cult members, some are mental health professionals some are academics and others are a mix of the above.
Years of direct professional experience might also be a good measurement of the weight of that expertise.
But generally if someone is a well-regarded expert they are sought as such for an opinion in their area of expertise, frequently quoted as such and known for that expertise.
Neither Peele or Schaler meet such criteria as cult experts. And I don't recall them claiming to be cult experts.
They do have very strong opinions about AA, which generally coincide with those you have expressed at this forum.
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
ezdoesit
()
Date: August 17, 2006 06:35AM
Quote
barabara
Please don't take this as an insult, because I assure you that is not my intention, but the name "ezdoesit" is also an AA slogan.
Am I wrong to speculate that you are yourself an AA member?
If so, we could dialog about personal experiences within the program and exchange interpretations.
Understand that I am not trying to invade your privacy and I have complete respect for everyone's right to anonymity.
No insult. The nickname is just a coincidence.
I have attended many AA meetings as part of my professional training, but am by no means an expert.
Neither am I religious in any way.
EZ
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 17, 2006 07:57PM
Did anyone ever actually post the 12 steps?
Here are the Twelve Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
5. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
6. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
7. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
8. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
9. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of
10. His will for us and the power to carry that out.
11. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
12. Other twelve-step groups have modified the twelve steps slightly from those of Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to problems other than alcoholism.
Other twelve-step groups at times may have modified the twelve steps.
Here are the Twelve Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
5. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
6. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
7. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
8. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
9. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of
10. His will for us and the power to carry that out.
11. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
12. Other twelve-step groups have modified the twelve steps slightly from those of Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to problems other than alcoholism.
Other twelve-step groups at times may have modified the twelve steps.
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 19, 2006 01:40AM
The twelve steps above have some very confusing typos, ones that may obscure the intent of the steps.
Here they stand corrected:
Here they stand corrected:
Quote
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ? that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 20, 2006 01:35AM
Quote
rrmoderator
An interesting book to read about this would be...
Craving for Ecstasy : How Our Passions Become Addictions and What We Can Do About Them by Harvey Milkman, Stanley Sunderwirth
See [www.amazon.com]
"The chemistry and psychology of addiction are described with considerable insight. These authors know their stuff, and they make a compelling case. . . .All in all, Craving for Ecstasy is a challenging, well-considered analysis." (Los Angeles Times)
"Milkman and Sunderwirth offer a new and different perspective from which to understand a very complex and confusing pattern of human behavior. Their ideas are vibrant, provocative, stimulating and, written for a public that is demanding a better explanation." (Howard J. Shaffer, director of the Center for Addiction Studies, Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School and The Cambridge Hospital)
RR,
Thanks for that link, I ordered the book :D
Colter
Destructive "cult like" 12 step groups
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 20, 2006 02:58AM
I haven't read the book, yet, just a few reviews but it brings to mind this question?
I f addiction is "[b:34c7d9ebcd]a pattern of human behavior[/b:34c7d9ebcd]", how then is it a "[b:34c7d9ebcd]disease[/b:34c7d9ebcd]"?
And if it is "a [b:34c7d9ebcd]pattern of behavior[/b:34c7d9ebcd]" that pervades the whole of humanity at some level, why is it philosophically acceptable in our society, which prides itself on its powers of reason, to consider alcoholics and addicts so [b:34c7d9ebcd]morally bereft that a "spiritual" solution is the only answer, as is claimed by the literature of AA[/b:34c7d9ebcd]?
There are a lot of contradictions presented by the program of AA, and some out and out lies made when they try to rationalize them.
Within AA, I was told that these contradictions are actually [b:34c7d9ebcd]"paradoxes"[/b:34c7d9ebcd], another way, In my opinion, of mythologizing the dogma, making it into [b:34c7d9ebcd]"arcane and esoteric" knowledge[/b:34c7d9ebcd], meant for pondering by the philosophers, not for the little, common, everyday alkie to trouble himself with.
AA has an uncommon ability to ignore and vilify scientific research while claiming to adhere to it. [b:34c7d9ebcd]And the public doesn't want to look at this shortsightedness, because they have been to for so long that AA is the best and only way to cure the disease[/b:34c7d9ebcd].
([b:34c7d9ebcd]But wait,[/b:34c7d9ebcd] doesn't the recommended book call addiction a "pattern of human behavior"?
[b:34c7d9ebcd]Ah, must be one of "The Paradoxes" of the program![/b:34c7d9ebcd])
I do wish the moderators would answer my questions, as they told us previously that secular alternatives to AA are readily available.
Were they not told about these alternatives during their professional training in recovery models?
_________________________________________________________
[b:34c7d9ebcd]Perhaps this university course is representative of today's trends in training recovery professionals?[/b:34c7d9ebcd]
[www.goou.ou.edu]
[b:34c7d9ebcd]A course syllabus from the University of Oklahoma:[/b:34c7d9ebcd]
I posted a detailed selection of excepts from the syllabus on the "[b:34c7d9ebcd]Question for AA experts[/b:34c7d9ebcd]", under the topic "[b:34c7d9ebcd]Clergy and therapy abuse[/b:34c7d9ebcd]", for those who are interested.
[board.culteducation.com]
I f addiction is "[b:34c7d9ebcd]a pattern of human behavior[/b:34c7d9ebcd]", how then is it a "[b:34c7d9ebcd]disease[/b:34c7d9ebcd]"?
And if it is "a [b:34c7d9ebcd]pattern of behavior[/b:34c7d9ebcd]" that pervades the whole of humanity at some level, why is it philosophically acceptable in our society, which prides itself on its powers of reason, to consider alcoholics and addicts so [b:34c7d9ebcd]morally bereft that a "spiritual" solution is the only answer, as is claimed by the literature of AA[/b:34c7d9ebcd]?
There are a lot of contradictions presented by the program of AA, and some out and out lies made when they try to rationalize them.
Within AA, I was told that these contradictions are actually [b:34c7d9ebcd]"paradoxes"[/b:34c7d9ebcd], another way, In my opinion, of mythologizing the dogma, making it into [b:34c7d9ebcd]"arcane and esoteric" knowledge[/b:34c7d9ebcd], meant for pondering by the philosophers, not for the little, common, everyday alkie to trouble himself with.
AA has an uncommon ability to ignore and vilify scientific research while claiming to adhere to it. [b:34c7d9ebcd]And the public doesn't want to look at this shortsightedness, because they have been to for so long that AA is the best and only way to cure the disease[/b:34c7d9ebcd].
([b:34c7d9ebcd]But wait,[/b:34c7d9ebcd] doesn't the recommended book call addiction a "pattern of human behavior"?
[b:34c7d9ebcd]Ah, must be one of "The Paradoxes" of the program![/b:34c7d9ebcd])
I do wish the moderators would answer my questions, as they told us previously that secular alternatives to AA are readily available.
Were they not told about these alternatives during their professional training in recovery models?
_________________________________________________________
[b:34c7d9ebcd]Perhaps this university course is representative of today's trends in training recovery professionals?[/b:34c7d9ebcd]
[www.goou.ou.edu]
[b:34c7d9ebcd]A course syllabus from the University of Oklahoma:[/b:34c7d9ebcd]
If you read the syllabus, howeber, you will see that the focus of the course is on the [b:34c7d9ebcd]disease concept[/b:34c7d9ebcd] of addiction and rehabilitation models based on this theory.Quote
[b:34c7d9ebcd]Course Description:[/b:34c7d9ebcd]
This course provides foundational knowledge for counseling chemically dependent
persons. Students will learn working definitions of substance abuse and will be introduced to intervention,
assessment, and treatment strategies. [b:34c7d9ebcd]Several models of substance abuse are presented[/b:34c7d9ebcd].
I posted a detailed selection of excepts from the syllabus on the "[b:34c7d9ebcd]Question for AA experts[/b:34c7d9ebcd]", under the topic "[b:34c7d9ebcd]Clergy and therapy abuse[/b:34c7d9ebcd]", for those who are interested.
[board.culteducation.com]
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