Gnostic Movement on wikipedia list of sects:
The following is a list of Masters who started their own school:

* Joaquín Amórtegui, VM Rabolu
* Julio Caesar Medina Vizcaíno, alias Gargha Kuichines, Patriarch II
* Jorge Eduardo Medina Precipice, alias Patriarch III
* Luis Gustavo Morales Sierra, alias Kelium Zeus Induceus
* Joab Morales Calderón, alias Samael Johab Bathor Weor
* Teófilo Bustos García, alias Lakshmi
* Olmedo Palomino Sanchez, alias Hi Shing
* Ernesto Barón, alias Anubis
* Luis Palacios Acosta
* Mark Pritchard, VM Belzebuub
(source: [en.wikipedia.org])

Please note that that site is being continously tamper with by various Aun Weor members to surpress and manipulate information. Note also it does seem like promotion.

Its interesting to read the "Discussion" section on wikipedia there as well.

To qoute page: "Smacksoftruth

Yes, stop deleting and censoring information that doesn't suit what you wish was the truth. Did you know the man? No? i did ...have you met his children? NO? i did! did you meet his wife? NO? I DID! did you know Rabalu? NO? I did. How many World Congress did you attend? Where you in hypatias school in Tijuana? Do you speak spanish? Did you donate thousands of dollars to publish the books? NO NO NO? Maybe its time to put your sleepie head to better use and stop deleting the information from people who did. Also did you rent him a building in Mexico City? Where you in first chamber, second chamber, third chamber? Did you see Arnolda Gomez yell? Where you present and did you wear a blue robe and hold a gnostic mass with samael in mexico city? Maybe its time to admit that your knowledge from a couple of web sites sects and visit to a center for classes and a couple of international congresses leaves plenty of room for laughs and a lot to desired like the truth! so stop deleting from the ones who do know what went on! HERE! HERE! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smacksoftruth (talk • contribs) .

Yes, but that's original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia for a number of good reasons. Also, there's no reason to make 9 edits in a row. Take it slow, decide on the edits you want, and then submit them all in one go. Many of these edits are inappropriate for WP; it appears that a few of them are not. But if you make a long series of tiny changes, it becomes impractical for others to find the acceptable edits, and so we will revert the whole series.

Mistercow 16:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Smacksoftruth, your edits are rather fanatical and while SOME "schools" are very harmful, that in no way is represents the whole. Your edits are extremely biased and present Point of View. You are presenting a point of view that you have, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Like I have said, I do not doubt you have had a bad experience, yet you cannot defeat fanaticism by being a fanatic. You removed the "Independent Schools" section for no reason whatsoever. They exist, therefore the section there must exist. You changed the Pseudo Schools section into a section containing abuse the occurs at ALL schools, which is simply not truth. You state "They may state that only five books should be read,what type of music to listen to, movies to see. and of course not to ask too many questions or talk to people in other sects and other absurdities" which may be true for your fanatical school that followed Amórtegui, but it not true for the many schools I have been in contact with. Amórtegui and his school has nothing to do with true doctrine of Samael Aun Weor. If you have a problem with Amórtegui's schools, perhaps you can write it in that section if you can do so NPOV, or write a whole article about that, again NPOV. Your posts will continue to be reverted because you have repeatedly failed to show any attempt at NPOV. How can I trust your ‘experience’ if you continue to vandalize these articles? --Paul Stone 19:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

In all fairness, I'd like to assume that Smacksoftruth is not a vandal. A vandal changes an article to incite anger in others, or out of total frivility. Smacksoftruth seems to be genuinely trying to make the more accurate, but is either unaware or uncaring of the fact that he/she is going about it inappropriately. The distinction is important because, in general, vandals should be banned immediately, while users who do not follow the rules should at least be given a chance to improve.

Mistercow 19:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If vandal is the wrong choice of words, I apologize. A particular edit to the Samael Aun Weor article prompted it. --Paul Stone 03:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. Mistercow 04:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hehehe. I agree about the vandalism, but it was a mildly amusing edit. Anyway, I'm vaguely interested in this article so it's on my watchlist. Greetings! I hope you will make me welcome. I know a little bit about The Gnostic Movement too, but since verifiability is the important thing here I'll keep it as my business. I'd like to see minority opinions fairly represented in this article. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 04:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit]

In Relation to Gnosticism

This article is about the schools affiliated with Samael Aun Weor, and not about the early form of Christianity known as gnosticism or its modern revivals

Is this line necessary? The very first sentence of the actual article state almost the same thing. Furthermore, I feel it is somewhat misleading because there is, in fact, a lot of relationships between what is understood as 'historical Gnosticism' and what is taught in the schools. --Paul Stone 13:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I significantly reworded this line and redirected people to gnosticism - that is how I stumbled on this article - looking for information about the early christian movement called gnosticism. think it is useful Trödel 22:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit]

Promotion

I am a little concerened that this looks like promotion of the movement. For example see list of external references and the links (the number of links is that number reported by google for pages that link to the indicated external "reference"):

* [www.gnosis.ca] has 0 links
* [www.gnosis.org.au] has 1 link
* [www.gnostic-institute.org] has 1 link
* [gnosticmovement.com] has 3 links
* [www.ageac.org] has 3 links
* [www.gnosticweb.com] has 7 links
* [www.geocities.com] has 13 links
* [www.mysticweb.org] has 22 unique (of 79 links)
* [www.gnosticteachings.org] has 12 unique (of 81 links)
* [www.gnosticschool.org] has 6 unigue (of 123 links)

Link info is accurate as of 2006-06-12. I am not an expert in the subject but the page just feels like promotion of the movement. Additionally, since the external references have lots of interlinks (links to each other) - I am not sure whether it has any notability outside the movement's participants. Trödel 17:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Shinmawa removed the prod notice - saying POV problems are not for prod - however, my concern had nothing to do with POV issues - but whether or not we even need an article about this movement when it is mostly promotion and other gnostic articles cover the subject matter sufficiently. Trödel 18:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions Merge information into Samael Aun Weor, find references for the claims, identify sources outside the movement that can help present the information in a more NPOV manner, delete the article all together. I am not sure what needs to be done so I am soliciting comments from all the (non-IP address and non-vandal reverting) contributors to this article and talk page Trödel 22:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concerns. From what I can tell there are two major points you have brought up: 1) The article is a promotion. 2) The article is summed up elsewhere. However I disagree upon both points.

I created the article because in my experience there is a great deal of confusion regarding the different schools that under the name of Samael Aun Weor, thus this article clearly outlines the major differences between groups. This article contains information that is not found anywhere else on Wikipedia, and its information is not consolidated anywhere on the entire internet as far as I can tell. Thus concerning point two, I do not feel its subject matter is covered in other articles. Someone who is attending one of these schools may find it of value to know that other types of schools exist, and that they contradict each other on various points, as some schools would not offer this information themselves. This, and especially the content of the section entitled Pseudo Schools, is not promoting the movement but rather showing its faults. I disagree with point one because the article itself makes no distinction whatsoever that the movement has any value, good or bad, or that one particular school is better than another, therefore links are provided at the bottom to the let the reader form their own conclusion. In my opinion, that these links are not widely linked by other sites does not say anything important, in fact to remove them or to replace them with third party sites would leave the reader without direct access to the subjects of the article. The movement is found on every continent and even if only those people who considered themselves to be within the movement find this article of value, this is more than enough to be notable, in my view.

Obviously I would like to keep the article. I think the major flaw of the article is the lack of references, I’ll see what I can do about that. We can cut down on the links too as some of them point to the same school. If there is anything else specific about the article you find overly subjective let me know. --Paul Stone 01:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Good summary of my concerns - I think you summarized them well. I will continue to read a little on this - and see if I can help with references - if you find some let me know - I found some stuff in spanish (see link I added on the article page - and it's external links) - but i only read English and French fluently - my spanish is very limited Trödel 01:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit]

Bias Neutrality of Article is Questionible

Unfortunately from what I have read the article is bias. This needs to be discuss with the satff of wikipedia. ALL Aun Weor affiliated groups claims legitimacy. "

(source: [en.wikipedia.org])

I have the misfortune to have stumbled upon this group in the northwestern U.S. There was a ten week course. This was four or so years ago.

My current experience is like that of someone poisoned, where the toxin has a progressively degenerative effect. I have been rather puzzled by the fact that going to a class for a few hours a week for a couple of months could have an effect so devastating for such a long time and to become progressively more so rather than diminish with time.

The moderator of this course had a peculiar indescribable effect on some deep level of my being. There is a feeling around the solar plexus like something having been implanted there and wreaking some indefinabole havoc on the system. Deeper, in other words, than a mere intellectual acceptance of doctrine which one can simply change one's mind about.

In short i can say that, thus far, my life has been immesurably devastated by those weeks, and it remains to be seen whether i will be able to recover. However, something seems to keep me from describing the details of my experience - a knotting up in the abdomen and scrambling of thought... But, if anyone has questions about it i will try to answer.

Primarily, I am interested in any information about this topic for the purpose of recovery and i am most grateful for what i have found here. This is the first time i have seen a true description of the institution and before now i have been unsure as to the validity of my suspicions that the "school" has affected me in this way.
Again, any helpful information on this is greatly welcomed. thanks.

n,

sorry to hear about the trauma from your past involvement.

There are good references on this site discussing common group methods of bringing individuals into such states, and effects of.

If, at some time you would be able to describe the class teaching/environment method, along with further thoughts about the class leader, I would be interested.

to N:

about 2 years ago i also attended the Mysticweb schools, and did their two courses. then did the other two online. i have also been greatly affected by their subtle dogma, and paradoxes- such as the popularly parroted slogan "dont be a parrot" or "only trust your own experience". meanwhile, you are told of doctrines that "demand faith in order to be experienced". i am very interested to ask you about your experiences and to discuss them together.

if you were attracted to the group, then obviously you have an interest in spiritual development. my view is that my experience with them was a relatively harmless bump on a spiritual path, an experience through which i have become more resitant or vaccinated against dogmatic influence. i fortunately have a skeptical mind, a trait that Samael thoroughly denounces.

i do recognize that some of their teaching has greatly improved my life, when i apply it in a very stripped down form. unfortunately, the teaching latches on a lot of complex baggage, which is where they really hit you. increased awareness has improved my life- but not when i believed every thought was being implanted by some "evil" ego from a higher dimension! and teh idea that you need to ask a part of your subconscious to "destroy" or "kill" that other part of you.... asking for a schizo complex, or multiple personality, in which you are constantly self punishing.
also, the lucid dreaming technique is excellent- but not when i run around fearing negative entities!! i believe lucid dreams are a malleable substance, on which you can project very easily. when i fear, i see what i fear... later, i decided to sit down and simply talk with those same negative entities, and treat them like friends. things changed!
strangest of all is the tantric sex method, of resisting orgasm. i feel there may be many benefits to this (lasting longer in bed, not feeling exhausted by orgasm, and possible spiritual benefits- note, the technique can be traced back through many different cultures). but it's not good when you feel total guilt!!! to think a free, hour long seminar for ten weeks can STOP you from feeling pleasure, and have a guilt complex over our natural biological functioning (sounds a bit too technical...).

one major help to me was to simply be critical, and to always look to many other sources for reading material. many people on the forum say they "only want one teacher", making a monopoly possible. it is amazing how the group and Samaels writing work- very insidious, and very fear inspiring. your worldview can be totally transplanted very easily.


the two main ways to implement SUGGESTION and AUTO-SUGGESTION are through: 1) survival instinct, and 2) reproduction/sex instinct.
in complex ways, the Samael doctrine plays with both of these, in complex and subtle ways. they use them to make you your own judge/jury/torturer.

-consider, perhaps, how this is realted to Freuds' "Death principle" and "pleasure principle"... also, how is it related to advertising techniques? when i think of these, i remember that social rejection is a big threat to survival. how does "dying to the egos" relate to the survival instinct?

also, why does Samael and much other Christian influenced occultism totally denounce homosexuality? is any of his writing racist- perhaps his views about the "aryan race", is it tied to other teachings about how the perfect human is blonde and blue eyed? that view was held by many occult groups, such as Samael's influence from the Theosophists/spiritualist.

so, i must say that i do find value in the bare bones basics of their teachings- but very early on in my study with the group, i was very suspicious of many things. Samael seems so aggressive.

very useful is to research his association with Arnoldo Krumm-Heller, and Aleister Crowley. there are connections between Samael and the OTO, which people on the mysticweb forums are oblivious to. they denounce Crowley, but meanwhile Samael's teacher (who he recognizes in book 3 mountains) was a huge promoter of Crowley!!! i personally am a fan of Crolwey's writing, i find some value in it as well, but again- i read with a critical mind.

i do find it useful to go to their Gnosticweb forum, and try to recognize patterns in what people write there. i genuinely feel compassion for the people, they obviously seek spiritual development. but some seem very much brainwashed. i wonder, does anybody know how these groups are financially organized? they accept donation, do they make alot of money? are they simply looking for power for it's own sake?

does anybody have biographical information about Mark Pritchard, their current leader "Beelzebub"? i understand, form the wikkipedia bio, that he was a former student of Samael, and when he died Mark was involved in a major splintering of various students. they all formed their own groups, around the world. i also must say, the organization who rund website gnosis.usa does not seem to try and recruit members, i feel it may be simply a person who truly is devoted to Samael's teaching... but it is also a business, in publishing his books. who runs it? any connection to various Samael schools?


please contact me, or reply N... i think it could help us both to discuss our situations.

Hi! I have been writing on the gnosticweb forum over the past few days and i'm sure you will LOVE to read the responses i've been getting from the moderators.
I posted a simple question asking for any of the 27,000 members, moderators, or for Mark himself (beelzebub) to simply explain what knowledge of the mysteries of life they have learned from spiritual beings they claim they have spoken to in another dimension/astral plane. The initial forum was LOCKED by one of the moderators after some rather comical responses from members and moderators. Soon after, an open-minded member started a new forum where he was able to honestly answer my question to the best of his ability. The moderators are blatantly opposed to sharing any 'knowledge' from the astral, which tells anyone reading the forums that it's not due to secrecy, it's due to the fact that nobody has learned any mystical wisdom about the mysteries of life.

They are a group that is very closed-minded about the origins of their teachings which tells me the moderators have been brainwashed into believing Mark Pritchard INVENTED the techniques in his book. Truth is, he does not say anything original in his book except for one posture that has been scientifically proven to be unreliable. I purposely hinted at the origins of Samael Aun Weor's spiritual education (real name is Victor Rodriguez) although nobody bit; not one person indicated that they even know about Mark's education/training. It must duly be noted, as well, that SAW was a student of the HPB school of theosophy, and in the works of his that i read, he did not teach anything mystical that is either constructive or practically useful.
A few interesting facts about the group: when you read a posting the counter indicating the number of people who read that posting goes up by 2, falsely doubling the number of interested students. furthermore, although they state they have over 27,000 members, when you look at the list of members you will see that many are not active members, they don't even participate in the forums! and, when you click on a member to view their past postings, the true number of postings doesn't match their counter...
Question: why are they trying to fool people with regards to how many members they have?

It is a shame that somebody like Mark Pritchard, who is obviously a great businessman with a knack for using lost souls in seek of spiritual guidance to his financial benefit, something he may have learned from SAW and his wife (who was a self-declard magician, with superpowers, although never revealed to them to the public because "we're not ready to see that yet...." (what? we're not able to see magic powers but the people of 2000 years ago were able to see Jesus perform miracles??? what's wrong with us???) ;)

Students of gnosticweb and gnosticcircle (another branch of the same teachings of SAW, although Mark prefers to focus on the astral projection parts...which was brilliant to unite the science of astral projection with esoteric teachings to make a quick buck), what they should be told by the moderators, is that all of the astral projection techniques are actually elementary teachings, and have been refined by the scientific pioneers of astral projection/lucid dreaming, and that they can learn more by reading the scientific literature, and by reading the original esoteric texts where SAW got his information from. SAW did not refine anything from the pure texts, and Mark Pritchard merely bastardized the scientific studies of astral projection to make it look like he developed those techniques.

I am a member of gnosticweb because I am in search of people who have reached a certain level of psychological development who have knowledge to share with the rest of the world, who do not intend to keep knowledge to themselves but who want to reveal information that will inspire people to make a better world. They DO teach phillosophy, however there's no need to read philosophy from 3rd generation teachers when we live in a free society that has access to the original works.

I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have. FYI I travel extensively in search of true students of higher degrees. I met teachers from both Gnostic Circle and Gnosticweb, and although they mean well, they do not see that they belong to organizations that are closed to ideas other than those of SAW. That means they are a cult, and are no better than religions that deem any literature that is not from them as 'heretical'. True seekers of knowledge never close their minds; they know that ignorance is an obstacle to gaining wisdom. What they need to accept is that astral projection is a science that is regaining popularity after generations of dormancy. And, like every science, it will take the shared research from around the world to advance.
any scientific endeavor that closes its doors to input from other sources will simply lag behind. The students of gnosticweb would gain so much more by finding true teachers who have nothing to hide.

hello everybody - i am a a member of Ageac in Romania for about 1 year and a half. I am aware of all the manipulation techniques used by sects and religious cults to brainwash people and I can guarantee that in Ageac there is NO manipulation. Let me extend that a little bit.
From my direct experience I can tell you that in each class, either theoretical or meditation, we are free to ask any question, and we are encouraged to ask questions about our spiritual development.
We are free to come and go whenever we want. We are not asked to stay and we are not asked to leave. It's our free choice.
The teachings are not imposed to us. We can try to understand them or not , it's our choice, we can go to other schools and fill our heads with intellectual information, it's our choice.
The classes are free of charge- the only pay we should make is for renting the amphiteatre- that is the amount of 4(four) euros a month for each person. If we want to pay, it it's good, if we don't want to pay it, it is not imposed.
Gnosis means knowledge -you can find it at Samael aun Weor or anywhere else. nobody told me that the reading other books than samael's is a bad thing. Nevertheless all his teachings can be found in different other cultures and are based on the secular wisdom that humanity gathered in time.
The sects use a black-white brainwashing method ( what is inside is good and what is outside is bad). Obviously, every school believes in it's teachings and believes they are the best, but to say that the outer world is bad and the inner world is good is a phrase I never heard in this spiritual school.
There is no comunication control. We can speak with anyone anything we desire. There is no dress code. There is no guilt nor fear imposed to us. The analysis of the world is made with rational arguments and the debates are encouraged. We do not have to tell anyone what we do not want to tell, nor confess it.
The meditation is made to become more aware of us, of our ideas and emotions , in order to evolve and to understand ourselves. We always pray to the real God ( or the divine spirit) before and after the meditation.
I strongly feel that being part of Ageac is my own free choice and that I can leave anytime I want.
we are not punished nor rewarded for anything. Our spiritual path is ours and we decide what we do with it.
About skepticism. I do not believe in anything I don't experience, BUT that doesn't mean I deny the possibility of a phenomenon to exist. Skepticism is encouraged and blind faith is discouraged. Deprogramming ourselves from rigid dogmas and different mecanisms is one of the main goals of this type of spirituality.
I observed that some of the other posts treated religious differences and not whether the spiritual school is a sect or not. I believe this site is about fighting against the manipulation, brainwashing or coercitive persuation of the cults and sects and not a forum speaking about denying or approving the teachings presented by spiritual schools.
I presented my opinions and direct experience in Ageac, spiritual comunity based on the teachings of Samael aun Weor, association leaded by Oscar Uzcategui.
I do not know if the other spiritual schools based on Samael's wisdom are cults or not. I won't make uncovered assumptions about something I didn't experience nor profoundly understood.
To speak about all the Samael aun Weor 'cultS' shows that that person didn't quite reffered to a single one that he experienced or understood but makes assumptions about the other schools that are as bad as the one(s) he found. That is not a true analysis. The facts that I've presented show that Ageac is not a sect or cult
thank you for your time. I would appreciate objections or opinions about what I presented here.

Have you guys not read his works? Gnosis as I am told is direct knoweldge which can be found from the astral. From what you guys have posted those people are not true gnostics as described by samael in his books.