I'm just getting the word around about the various Samael Aun Weor group as many cult watch organizations dont have info listed about him. (if you dont have it already).

"Samael's" real name is Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez born March 3, 1917 in Colombia, South America, and moved to Mexico in the 1950's. He died on December 24, 1977 in Mexico City.
Victor Rodriguez was a member of Fraternitas Rosicruciana Antiqua (FRA) in Columbia. Now to what extent Victor Rodriguez was with the FRA is uncertain. Although Gabriel Gaviria dispute that Victor Rodrguenz has ever met Arnold Krumm Heller. And the FRA dispute the claim that Victor Rodriguez was ever made a "Bishop" by Heller. Gaviria said something in the regards that Rodriguez was too young to have met Keller or was in some other part of South America.

(source)
Pilares Villa, "Liber Veritatis", p. 23; Ramirez Cifuentes, letter of 26.8.90; Pilares Villa, letter of 9.3.90.
letter of 7.9.92.
Gabriel Sanchez Gaviria, letter of 20.10.92.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Some of the claims of Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez and his followers. Such as him speaking to aliens or claiming to be the "Arch Angel Sameal" or "Buddha Maitreya", "Avatar of Aquarius", "Samael the Arch Angel Regent of Mars" etc (I was also told in private by a member of the Aun Weor groups that he is "...an Arch Angel of the Sun" as well.)
He even named his 4 children Osiris, Isis and Horus. He had another named Hepatia.
Osiris is currently co-ordinating the "gnostic" groups under Litelantes (his wife*) who had passed away. Keep in mind that there are several Sameal groupings that splinter off when "Samael" died.
(I have heard one of his daughters left the group. I dont know for sure who. Its quite possible he had a fifth child???? Her name may be "Luna"???? I'm not 100% sure who "Luna" is but she did write a booklet in which I have from their grouping. When I inquire who Luna is all I got was a blank wall response.)

(There seems to be alot of these little catches that someone "neglect" to informed you. Or some other little surprise.)

(*"Litelantes" real name is Arnolda Garro de Gomez.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They use a progression fear base method of manipulation. When you first join the free lectures they appear as a innocent spiritual school. But as several months pass they start increaseing their fear rhetoric. Its fearful message repeated over and over again little by little.
They also practice some form of sleep deprivation based on the teachings of Gurdjieff. (I would say miss interpretation of Gurdjieffs teachings.)

They claim that "Sameal" says people shouldnt follow him blindly. But at the same time Sameal and his followers scorn and place condemnation on those who dont agree with him.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is from one of of the Aun Weor's websites. A Lecture by Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez (aka Samael Aun Weor) Titled "WHO IS SAMAEL AUN WEOR?" :





Many think that Samael Aun Weor is just a pseudonym. Therefore it is now very important to transcribe what the Venerable Master Samael said about himself. The following text is a transcript of a lecture that was dictated by the Master in the Civic Auditorium of the State of Guadalajara, in the year 1975.







"Many people believe that Samael is just a pseudonym. No! Indeed, I am Samael! By yourselves, you have read that in Kabbalah that Samael is classified as the angel regent of Mars. In the Bible, Samael is classified as a demon. It does not matter! The fact is that I am Samael! ......"

".... Samael Aun Weor is my true name as a Boddhisattwa. Samael is the name of my Monad! I am perfectly cognizant of the dawn of life in this Solar System! I saw the dawning of Creation! I am here with this humanity, from the very first moment, since the heart of this solar system started to palpitate after the long Cosmic Night. I came here (to this planet) because my Internal God, my Father who is within me, sent me! My only purpose is to serve and help this humanity! This is why I am serving my fellowmen. This is why I am working for the sake of this humanity! ..."

Source: [www.gnosticinstitute.org]



Obviously he has a Messianic complex.



You might find this article interesting.

(source)

[www.cwnews.com]

" Latin American Cults Watched Following California Suicides


Apr. 07, 1997

QUITO, Ecuador (CWN) - Latin American nations have taken initiatives to control and even ban some cults under Gnostic or New Age influence in order to prevent a massive suicide similar to the "Heaven's Gate" suicide cult that occurred recently in California.

In Quito, Ecuador, authorities have banned any proselytizing by the "Gnostic Christian Universal Movement of Samael Aun Weor," due to the similar beliefs regarding the "messianic signals" of the Hale-Bopp comet. According to local police, the decision to forbid the sect's actions in Ecuador has been taken in order to "prevent any dangerous reaction such as the one that occurred in the United States."

Even though the Heaven's Gate sect has no official representation in Ecuador, some of its members have organized an international summit that was going to be held in the country. Since Ecuador is on the Equator, the country is seen as an "energy pole" by many New Age cults. The Ecuadorian government has forbidden the Heaven's Gate summit.

At the same time, in Peru, the government asked the National Police to investigate the "Alpha and Omega" cult, a Gnostic movement which promotes a messianic expectation on the arrival of a UFO that will bring universal peace and love. The sect says that Jesus was a forerunner of the interplanetary aliens they are expecting.

Similar investigation of other New Age sects are underway in Mexico, Chile, and Colombia. "

---------------------------------------------------------

This is from another one of their booklets.
Titled "THE PERFECT MATRIMONY"


"Skeptical people must not come to our studies because occult science is very demanding. The skeptics fail totally. Thus, skeptical people will not succeed in entering the Heavenly Jerusalem."

In other words you have to become a TRUE BELIEVER.
[www.gnosiscentral.com]

Here's someone elses experiences with the Aun Woeor group.
Tittled: " Samael Aum Weor (A warning: dangerous Cult)"

(source)
[tribes.tribe.net]


Fri, April 8, 2005 - 12:00 AM
Samael Aum Weor (A warning: dangerous Cult)
I'm sending this post after seeing that quotes of Samael Aum Weor are being pasted all the time. It makes me feel alarmed.

I've seen the cultist ideas of Samael Aum Weor and his "Gnosis" Organization destroy the life of several friends of mine.

His "Gnosis" is simply based in the idea that he is some sort of Messiah and his followers whould respect each one of his words as a sacred doctrine.

After joining the Organization he has created, people is lead to break their relationships with people not involved in the Organization. Also, the ones who have houses of their own are coerced and asked to donate their own house to the Organization.

The Samaelian "Gnostics" I've met end up getting celibate because it was impossible for them to follow the lunacy of Samael Aum Weor about having sex without ever releasing sperm.

One of my friends who joined the "Gnosis" Organization of Samael Aum Weor was so fucking brainwashed by them that believed that his teacher was Jesus Christ and that he had created the planet Mars. Another of my friends who joined the cult was by far worst and after leaving it he had to spend a long time in a psychiatric hospital.

The Cult of Samael Aum Weor is VERY DESTRUCTIVE (even more than Scientology). It is a very "popular" Cult is South America (I live here). It is not too popular in U.S.A. yet... but it is growing there too.

There are hundreds of web-pages in Spanish that give information about the Cultists practices of the organization of Samael Aum Weor and its branches (in almost every single case, these web pages were created by former members -victims- of the "Gnosis" Cult). Sadly, I could not find any English web page on the subjet... probably because it is still a fringe Cult in English-Speaking countries.

WHY SAMAEL AUM WEOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REAL GNOSTICISM?


When a person called Victor Gomez changes his name to Samael Aum Weor because he claims that he is in touch with an entity which has that name and creates a Cult in which people is forced to accept the words of this "entity" as a sacred doctrine... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When a person creates a Cult and forces his followers not to ever release sperm during sex and there are hundreds of testimonials of people who claim that after having joined the Cult they become Celibate because they were told that celibacy was better than releasing sperm... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When people is coerced to donate their own houses to a Cult in order to have a better knowledge of God and demostrate that way that they are not attached to the material world... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When you find a stupid guru that says some stupid things like "the first master was Buddha, then Krishna, then Christ... and then I arrived, and I am like those other guys, so praise me"... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When people follow a "Master" (and every "Master" needs servants or slaves in order to be a "Master", right?)... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When a person like Samael Aum Weor claims that he has channeled ancient rituals which are practiced in his order and those rituals are full of literal quotes which come from a cheap Spanish translation of Wallis Budge's English translation of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", a few rituals written by Krum-Heller and even a few quotes from Aleister Crowley's "Book of the Law" (who would probably have felt amused to know that a person that promotes a VERY DISTORDED and CHEAP version of Tantra is quoting his Book of the Law)... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When an organization is known as "Gnosis" and yet it promotes that his students MUST have visions that match the "revelations" that a loon like Samael Aum Weor claimed to have... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When the outcome of an organization is that several of its students end up getting absolutely alienated from society, in several cases living in mental hospitals, unable to have any social life beyond the organization... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When an organization asks his students to promote it by leaving brief posts in forums that mention its founder or links to the webpage of the Cult... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

When Religious Fanatism is the main teaching of a Group... and when the stupid "revelations" of a stupid man like Samael Aum Weor become the core of a group... that's NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL.

Samael Aum Weor was NOT GNOSTIC AT ALL... and that the organization he has founded and its branches are not GNOSTIC, but a dangerous brainwashing cult. BE CAREFUL ABOUT IT!
join this tribe to post

*
Denny
offline 46
Tue, April 12, 2005 - 8:00 AM
Re: Samael Aum Weor (A warning: dangerous Cult)
Hello all,

www.gnosticweb.com/index.php

That will allow you to decide for yourselves.

Peace.

Here's a link to Mr. Rabolu. He was a member of Aun Weor's inner circle befor the movement splintered apart.

[orbita.starmedia.com]

[tools.search.yahoo.com]



More to come

Here's a Spanish site about the movmemnt. They have a few English pages.

[www.sos-gnosis.org]

I belong to the gnóstic movement by many years. I have read (and many) books of the Samael and other teachers. I can say that many people in my family have been in the gnosis, and in all the groups are represented in here in Internet , much are missionaries who have started their own schools in far away places, and countries. The stories I hear are tragic. I think that the modern gnosis has been very badly, due to great hatred that the cults all have for each other and attract members who enjoy nonsense element of hates for others the same thing like this. As a family we do not have a challenge with each other for that reason. We see so much jealousy,irresponsible and ignorance in all the Samael Movements? i myself feel deceived and defrauded by that preaches Love and practices hatred as maximum expression. Who doubts this, that she looks for in Internet and find pain that is as much hatred in a web-site that is so called gnostic and spiritual. I feel defrauded. They try to end the psychological defects and at the same time they stimulate the excessive growth of such, with insults (justified or not) to which once were his more loved brothers. The the cult is difficult enough with respect to the sexual area, is here that the impact is great: with the hate and ignorance have caused innumerable divorces, very many undesired pregnancies, and sexual degeneration. Secrecy and pride they continue to do. My cousin in one group in U.S. that had abused one member to the hospital. What happened to the Gnositc Movement in past 25 yearswith this challenge and problem is almost unforgivable. Pray God pardons and illuminates to the gnósticos.

Findings from students of the Samael Aun Weor Gnostic Cults

The Samael Religious Cult falls into both the categories of a religious cult and a therapy cult.

Religious Cults and a [b:827086fefc]Therapy Cults [/b:827086fefc]
Communal living common.
[b:827086fefc]Communal Living rare.
[/b:827086fefc]Members may leave or not join society's workforce.
[b:827086fefc] Members usually stay in society's workforce.[/b:827086fefc]
Average age at the point of recruitment is in the 20's.
[b:827086fefc]Average age at the point of recruitment is in the mid 30's
[/b:827086fefc]Registered as religious groups.
[b:827086fefc] Registered as 'non profit making' groups.[/b:827086fefc]
Appear to offer association with a group interested in making the world a better place via political, spiritual or other means.
[b:827086fefc]Appear to offer association with a group giving courses in some kind of self improvement or self help technique or therapy.[/b:827086fefc][[/b][b:827086fefc]S[/b:827086fefc][b:827086fefc][/b:827086fefc]

Its founder Samael Aun Weor leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, and not accountable. (DEAD)

It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its students behavior and beliefs and includes but not limited to;

[b:827086fefc]Hypnosis [/b:827086fefc]
Inducing a state of high suggestibility by hypnosis, often thinly disguised as meditation, repetition of mind-narrowing chants or phrases
[b:827086fefc]
Metacommunication[/b:827086fefc]
Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, and confusing lectures.

[b:827086fefc]Group Lingo[/b:827086fefc]
Eliminanting non-cult ideas through repetition of mind-narrowing phrases repeated by students in conversation, and reading material.

[b:827086fefc]Confession [/b:827086fefc]
Encouraging the destruction of individual ego through confession of personal weaknesses and innermost feelings of doubt.

[b:827086fefc]Finger Pointing [/b:827086fefc]
Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world and other cults.
[b:827086fefc]
Flaunting Hierarch [/b:827086fefc]
Promoting acceptance of cult authority by promising advancement, power and salvation.
[b:827086fefc]
Guilt and Fear[/b:827086fefc]
Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former [b:827086fefc]lifestyles, and apoplectic end of the world scare tactics.

Dress Codes [/b:827086fefc]
Removing individuality by demanding conformity to the group dress code in advanced student meetings by wearing a blue rope made by members.

[b:827086fefc]Confusing Doctrine [/b:827086fefc]
Encouraging acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine taken in bits and pieces from but not limited to Manly P. Hall, Ouspensky, Blavatsky, Theosophy, Judiam, Buddhism, Catholicism, Gurdjeff, Rosicrucian, Christianity . en[b:827086fefc]Students [/b:827086fefc][b:827086fefc]couraged to hate other Samael Aun Weor Gnostic Cults[/b:827086fefc], but respect all religions and paths.
[b:827086fefc]
No Questions [/b:827086fefc]
Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.
[b:827086fefc]
Controlled Approval [/b:827086fefc]
Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.
[b:827086fefc]
Replacement of Relationships [/b:827086fefc]
Destroying pre-cult families by arranging cult marriages and 'families' encouraging divorce.

[b:827086fefc]Rejection of Old Values [/b:827086fefc]
Accelerating acceptance of new life style by constantly denouncing former values and beliefs.


[en.wikipedia.org]

Here are UK Samael Gnostico students hiding with their children in southern Colombia behind simple earth people. Here students who have taken grandiose names play shamman and combine Hare Krishna with Samael Gnositco Movement and take the powerful hallucinogenic plant YAJÉ (Ayahuasca) , They give Yaje to the boy or girl from the moment the child stops taking the mothers milk. One went to live and visit in this Samael Gnostic commune, and became addicted to this plant and became a paranoid person, came back only to accuse students of stealing , and being liars, black magicians. This person made several trips and would always return trying to get other stuents to bring money and follow them back down there ,supposedly saying it would only be for a few months. By the material from the Internet these Samael Gnositco students must be suffering the same effect from taking this plant. They teach and preach hate of the USA here on the site and privy much more. Everything is anti gringo, though they are white. Did They joined the Samael Gnostico movement because they already hate themselves and the world (maybe that is why all people go in cults :idea: ) and want to hallucinate and become bigger malcontent. The link one can see the hate shamman students point out the destruction of the atoll bikini atoll by USA when it was used as a test site from 1946 to 1958, as though it is happen today. but do not mention Since 1966, France has conducted 44 nuclear tests in the atmosphere and 115 underground tests on two tiny South Pacific atolls. these Samael Gnostico students are ignorant or have personally and paranoiac selected the USA as its whipping post, appears both .
.
See the spanish language section with more pictures and how they teach hate for USA. I have received their propaganda personally and they teach rage fo Israel and others too. These people are destructive but so far are too whacked out to carry out or do anything serious.

they like to circulate long hate messages containing prapaganda of the evil outside world, and white people. The sad fact is they are doing nothing to help to difficult situation in Colombia and the rest of South America and the world. They are escape artist of the worst kind, using relgion, earth people, and hallucinogenics. They are narcissists sociopaths.

Those poor earth people stuck with them.


here is URL

[www.btinternet.com]

[www.gnosticteachings.org]

Anti-gnosticJun 24 2005, 04:45 PM
The discussion I started "Samael the deciever" has been closed and I want to know why!

Rebecca4 wrote:
Our disciples must carefully avoid any argument in order not to waste their energy uselessly
Not to use their energy useless???

What are you saying?
That everything God gave us like the bible and the Quran is worth nothing?
We shouldnt read and learn more about the holy scriptures because they could prove that Samael was a deciever?
That Samael is God?

Whosoever wants to accept the doctrine of the Gnostics, let him accept it. Whosoever does not want to accept it is not yet mature. Therefore, it is useless to form an argument in order to convince such an individual.

Did Samael want you to be so fanatic?
I who read many books of Samael, the bible, the Quran and many other things am not yet mature, it isnt worth arguing with me?

Let arguments be forbidden
Why? Samael used so many argument!
You probably never read "the revolution of the dialect"!
He argumented so many times against science, let me answer him and prove to you all that he didnt know what he was talking about.

But I guess this is a fanatic cult that isolates from the truth and doesnt want to know anything about God!

At least let me answer Leon who wantet o know why we should argue, who will benefit from.
Well Leon, my answer is: everyone how loves God, want to know more about God, wants to live in harmony with God benefits from it.
You see, the ones that follow Samael are longing for a life with God but Samael used this passion to misslead them, just like Sai Baba does.
Arguing against Sai Baba and Samael is helping people from going the wrong way.

If we all read more from the bible and appreciate what God has given us we come closer to God because we understand his will more and can follow it.
Am I wrong?

You people argue aganist so Sai Baba, science, other belifs ect? But when someone argues against Samael you throw him out!

Just tell me why, give me a reason. Not arguments like reading the bible and trying to understand more about what God gave us is a waste of energy.

I still want to write two paths from the bible were apostle Paulus advices people that want to live for God to live in celibacy so pleas open the discussion "Samael the decivier".
NickJun 24 2005, 07:33 PM
In the name of truth I'm sure those benevolent beings might want us to investigate every facet, however it seems you've answered your own question:


QUOTE(Anti-gnostic @ Nov 24 2004, 04:07 PM)
from [www.gnosis-usa.com]
...I have practise many of the things he talks about with great results.



Perhaps your thread was closed because you're breaking the discussion into to many different threads. There is still a wealth of responses waiting for you in your old thread.
Rebecca4Jun 24 2005, 08:26 PM
This forum is made available solely for the expression and clarification of Gnosis under the guidance of Samael, the Red Christ of Aquarius.

This is not an "open forum" where anyone can come and express their negative opinion about Samael Aun Weor. However, if any one wants to do that, there is plenty of room out there on the Internet.

We respect the beliefs of all people, and we understand that it is impossible for the entire world to follow the revolutionary Gnostic doctrine of Samael. Nonetheless, the very least we expect from any individual is to show a bit of decorum when discussing sensitive issues such as religion.

To avoid conflicts like this in future, let us state the following. We Gnostics expect criticism, it is obvious that the revolutionary way in which this doctrine is being spread will have a lot of angry responses from those people who think they are already saved or in heaven, albeit we only accept cognizant criticism.

If you do not want to learn this doctrine, do us a favor, don’t do it and leave space for others who want to do it!

I think this topic however has had its day.

Again, posts and topics which are not concerned with the teachings of Gnosis will be removed.

Sorry, but for several reasons (some of which have already been stated) this thread is now closed. :(

[www.gnosticteachings.org]

Anti-gnosticJun 24 2005, 04:45 PM
The discussion I started "Samael the deciever" has been closed and I want to know why!

Rebecca4 wrote:
Our disciples must carefully avoid any argument in order not to waste their energy uselessly
Not to use their energy useless???

What are you saying?
That everything God gave us like the bible and the Quran is worth nothing?
We shouldnt read and learn more about the holy scriptures because they
could prove that Samael was a deciever?
That Samael is God?
[www.gnosticteachings.org]
Whosoever wants to accept the doctrine of the Gnostics, let him accept it. Whosoever does not want to accept it is not yet mature. Therefore, it is useless to form an argument in order to convince such an individual.

Did Samael want you to be so fanatic?
I who read many books of Samael, the bible, the Quran and many other things am not yet mature, it isnt worth arguing with me?

Let arguments be forbidden
Why? Samael used so many argument!
You probably never read "the revolution of the dialect"!
He argumented so many times against science, let me answer him and prove to you all that he didnt know what he was talking about.

But I guess this is a fanatic cult that isolates from the truth and doesnt want to know anything about God!

At least let me answer Leon who wantet o know why we should argue, who will benefit from.
Well Leon, my answer is: everyone how loves God, want to know more about God, wants to live in harmony with God benefits from it.
You see, the ones that follow Samael are longing for a life with God but Samael used this passion to misslead them, just like Sai Baba does.
Arguing against Sai Baba and Samael is helping people from going the wrong way.

If we all read more from the bible and appreciate what God has given us we come closer to God because we understand his will more and can follow it.
Am I wrong?

You people argue aganist so Sai Baba, science, other belifs ect? But when someone argues against Samael you throw him out!

Just tell me why, give me a reason. Not arguments like reading the bible and trying to understand more about what God gave us is a waste of energy.

I still want to write two paths from the bible were apostle Paulus advices people that want to live for God to live in celibacy so pleas open the discussion "Samael the decivier".
NickJun 24 2005, 07:33 PM
In the name of truth I'm sure those benevolent beings might want us to investigate every facet, however it seems you've answered your own question:


QUOTE(Anti-gnostic @ Nov 24 2004, 04:07 PM)
from [www.gnosis-usa.com]
...I have practise many of the things he talks about with great results.



Perhaps your thread was closed because you're breaking the discussion into to many different threads. There is still a wealth of responses waiting for you in your old thread.
Rebecca4Jun 24 2005, 08:26 PM
This forum is made available solely for the expression and clarification of Gnosis under the guidance of Samael, the Red Christ of Aquarius.

This is not an "open forum" where anyone can come and express their negative opinion about Samael Aun Weor. However, if any one wants to do that, there is plenty of room out there on the Internet.

We respect the beliefs of all people, and we understand that it is impossible for the entire world to follow the revolutionary Gnostic doctrine of Samael. Nonetheless, the very least we expect from any individual is to show a bit of decorum when discussing sensitive issues such as religion.

To avoid conflicts like this in future, let us state the following. We Gnostics expect criticism, it is obvious that the revolutionary way in which this doctrine is being spread will have a lot of angry responses from those people who think they are already saved or in heaven, albeit we only accept cognizant criticism.

If you do not want to learn this doctrine, do us a favor, don’t do it and leave space for others who want to do it!

I think this topic however has had its day.

Again, posts and topics which are not concerned with the teachings of Gnosis will be removed.

Sorry, but for several reasons (some of which have already been stated) this thread is now closed. :(

Related topic

[board.culteducation.com]


From another site:
[www.fortunecity.com]#
"Gnostics

The Gnostics movement was founded by Samael Aun Veor, who claimed to be the "Avatar of the Age of Aquarius" and was an admirer of Lucifer, whom he called "Good Demon Christ", "Gnostic Sun" etc.

According to former senior members, Gnostics teach "witchcraft: meditation, astral projections, telepathy exercises, awakening of inner powers..." Among their basic methods is 'sexual alchemy', i.e. sex without orgasm, which aims in spiritual development! According to Veor, Christ and His... wife, practiced sexual alchemy, so Christ became a... superhuman. By these methods, Veor (who claimed to be an incarnated fallen angel), would form a New Race, whom he would lead to a secret place, to save it from destruction...

After the menopause of his wife, Litelante, Veor practiced sexual alchemy with one of his disciples, so Hulio Medina and other disciples accused him of adultery and split the organization. Before he died, Veor declared that his spirit will rest in an Egyptian mummy until his next incarnation. After his death, the cult was split in many groups, which are led by Litelante, Medina, Ravolou, Baron and others. Each of these groups accuses the others for using black magic. Recently, the Greek branch of the group which is led by Ravolou, changed its name to "Gnostic Christian (!) Movement of Greece of the New Order"! Other groups are called SEG, AGEAC etc. "