Some of my negative response to other practices right now could be as a temporary defense. In regards to not chanting and bad things happening: Many years ago when I broke from the practice for a while , which was because of the 'priesthood issue' according to members even though I gave them a list of all these cult concerns instead, some members agreed the reason I hit and killed a deer with my car was because I wasn't chanting. Months before that, someone had given an experience of a wheel coming off of their car while they were driving on the highway but not getting hurt and also getting help quickly from another motorist, (perhaps a good Christian,who knows?) and a tow truck driver, (doing his job). How 'magical'.
If the wheel had fallen off MY car instead, it would have been a better example of punishment from the universe than that deer being hit.
Then there's the 'daimoku bank account' I've heard about when people leave (go taiten) but they are still doing okay. It is because of the 'good causes' they made while practicing. They have an answer for every occasion. If you are able to slip a word in they call it 'dialogue'.
I think I forgave all these clumsy selling points individuals would make for SGI because I was trying to respect their sincere efforts as human beings.
And besides doing things for myself lately, I continue to help others, but more effectively and gracefully.
David M. - Keep enjoying the martial arts! I do too!

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rattyboy
In regards to not chanting and bad things happening: Many years ago when I broke from the practice for a while , which was because of the 'priesthood issue' according to members even though I gave them a list of all these cult concerns instead, some members agreed the reason I hit and killed a deer with my car was because I wasn't chanting. Months before that, someone had given an experience of a wheel coming off of their car while they were driving on the highway but not getting hurt and also getting help quickly from another motorist, (perhaps a good Christian,who knows?) and a tow truck driver, (doing his job). How 'magical'.
If the wheel had fallen off MY car instead, it would have been a better example of punishment from the universe than that deer being hit.

Maybe the deer needed to chant more. :-)

Isn't it great that everyone in SGI is a lawyer of the Mystic Law?

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DrJesusEsq
Isn't it great that everyone in SGI is a lawyer of the Mystic Law?

I think that is their interpretation of "Sokushin Jobutsu" (Buddha in life). Sadly, every lawyer interprets it differently, and when the canon that underpins the law is essentially "Ikea says so" then you are faced with a pretty chaotic situation.

As long as I've got the talking stick, let me inject another gem.

When the great shakubuku campaigns were underway in Chicago (and elsewhere I'm sure) there was continual discussion about how honest one should be when discussing the practice with prospective members.

I recall in one meeting a leader said that when you are doing shakubuku the end justified the means, i.e. if you had to avoid a sticking point, tell a white lie, or gloss over an organizational problem in response to that person's question, then that was okay since you were doing it out of "Buddhist Mercy".

Has anyone else heard this line?

Wakatta1

@ wakatta1

Well I left the Gakkai-scene officially in 2004/2005 I joined in 1986. Here in Europe I was never really aware of any massive Shakubuku-campaigns. Having said this I basically stopped bringing people to any meetings quite early on since I felt too embarrassed to do so.

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wakatta1
I recall in one meeting a leader said that when you are doing shakubuku the end justified the means, i.e. if you had to avoid a sticking point, tell a white lie, or gloss over an organizational problem in response to that person's question, then that was okay since you were doing it out of "Buddhist Mercy".

Has anyone else heard this line?

Wakatta1

Not those exact words, but the message came through loud and clear. I remember when there would be guests at meetings. Leaders warned members to behave in an animated, cheerful way. We were warned not to discuss organizational problems, the Komeito party, financial donations, or the priesthood -- the goal was to "sell" guests on SGI. I also heard members telling guests things like this:

"There is no pressure to donate money."

"You should just try the practice; if you don't see changes in your life, then you can just quit."

"You can still be Christian and chant. I heard of this nun in New Jersey who chants "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo!"

"We are a world peace organization."

"You can join SGI and still be yourself." (Then why do I have to do the "rah-rah-rah" act when guests come? That is just so not me!)

"You can change anything in your life if you chant."

A friend of mine questioned this; the leader came back with the "Parable of the Burning House," from the Lotus Sutra. This guy goes out of town, leaving his kids, and comes back to find his house on fire. He calls the kids but they won't come out, so he tells them that he has some beautiful carts for them to play with. That does the trick -- the kids come out to play and are saved from the fire.

Leaders have also cited another parable, in which the father's away, but this time the kids drink poison. He returns and prepares an antidote. Some of the kids drink it right away, but several won't. The father tells the kids he's dying, or going away permanently, I forget which. This somehow motivates the kids to drink the antidote and be saved.

I heard those parables and all I could think was, "That guy should have gotten a better nanny!" I know, that's not really the point. The parables are comparing life without Buddhism to being in a burning house, or being ill and deranged from drinking poison. Leaving the burning house or drinking the antidote stands for accepting Buddhism, and to SGI members, specifically joining SGI.

In both cases, the father had to lie to his children to save them. So, naturally according to SGI, it's all right -- even commendable -- to lie to guests to get them to "save" themselves -- ie, join SGI! SGI will use that rationalization forever.

I am SGI

have been an YWD Leader, WD District Leader and now a Chapter WD Ldrs.

I have practice for almost 45 years. I know Nichiren Shoshu Academy, Nichiren Shoshu of American and now the SGI. I have marched in the fife and drum been to at least 20 States for conventions and I am too poop to pop.

The past 6 years plus have been hard for me to shallow. The whole Mentor and Disciple, now the ONENESSS of Mentor and Disciple. It’s too much for my sensibilities anymore. I can only talk to 2 members about this whole idea of reaching enlightenment through the Mentor /Disciple relationship. That would mean the pioneers who came before us including my father would not have had the opportunity to reach enlightenment through this sort of new principal.

Hell I always considered Pres Ikeda my master back when I was in youth division. I have been practicing since the late 60’s. However that was my choice it was not printed in publications, spoke about daily, on Sundays etc. Now you have to accept it or ….. I don’t know what the or really is?

Lately I have read The Autobiography of a Yogi-Fire in the Lotus, Old Path White Clouds ,The Prophet Nichiren? Wake up to your life: Discovering the Buddhist path of Attention. The first 30 pages deal with picking your teacher. Very interesting…
So I am at a crossroads in my leadership duties. What If what I believe is a lie? The practice of chanting and GONGYO and reading the Gosho are fine with me. --- It’s the body of Leaders in the SGI that concern me. The constant reference to each and every Gosho as the oneness of Mentor and Disciple. What does that really mean? I thought to myself. The constant steam cooker – me and my district leaders operate under. Some of them are not participating in leaders meetings – They don’t jump like they did when they first began their practice. The endless last minute meetings where you are expected to drop everything. I am constantly told “I am going home and going to bed” or “I can’t make all these meetings”

We just had our May 3rd meeting it was FLAT nobody seemed to be enthusiastic about Rock the Era or none of what was going on stage. Clearly when it came to Pres Ikeda ‘s video folks were flying out of the room to leave or go to the bathroom.

I have told Region leaders I want to give up my Chapter position - I only sign on for 3 years its now been 9. Before that I was a District Leader for 20 years.

Guest come through the front door and leaves out as members – in some cases never to be seen or heard of again.

I have other reasons that I don’t want to talk about just yet. I am whipped and beat and tired I want to retire like any other Manger who has been on the job for 42 years collect my gold watch and leave.

I am funny if I think I can go out without a fight.


Also=========================================

From Reply to the Mother of Ueno… To reassure the lay nun Ueno that her son has attained Buddhahood, the Daishonin discusses the great benefit gained from embracing the Lotus Sutra, and asserts that a votary of the sutra will be protected by Shakyamuni, Many Treasures , and all the other Buddha’s.



Hmmp don’t see any mention of living the oneness of mentor and disciple.

How many times n the Gosho did Nichiren emphasize that does he went against the Lotus Sutra suffered but does that continue to embrace it were Buddha’s… Gee no mention here of the Oneness of Master and Disciple oops they call it Mentor and Disciple now.

Nichiren states of Shichiro Goro in this Gosho states…. At an early age, having not yet turned twenty, he began to chanting Nam Myoho-renge-kyo, and thus he became a Buddha.. This is what the sutra means when it says: Then not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood”

Gee again no mention of this mentor and disciple relationship. It seems to be the relationship between us and the Lotus Sutra

Dear Blue Lady, I am sorry you are having trouble and conflict. I can empathize. I was not a member as long as you and I was not a leader (other than hancho) but I was a member for a long time and I was very involved. For 33 years I was a member of NSA/SGI. My entire life/family/friends were SGI. Things were bothering me a lot for the last few years, and it was building up, but the mentor/disiciple was the last straw for me. For a long time I struggled with it, but then I knew I had to leave. Much to my surprise, it wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be (even though I am still being contacted to try to get me to come back or to get my daughter involved with rock-the era). Actually, I feel much better since I left. I feel much freer and am able to see things much more clearly and relate to people better. Everyone is different and has different experiences and concerns, but for me it was a very positive transition to non-SGI life. This site has helped me tremendously. Everyone here has unique experiences (but all with a common base) and there are so many words of wisdom that I have read here!

I have felt and stated previously that I feel that there must be many members walking around feeling very troubled inside about everything that SGI is dishing out...

Good luck in your struggles and any eventual decisions that you might be making. Please keep us posted.

Blue Lady,

Suppose you had a friend that you kept having bad feelings about, perhaps their honesty or their behavior patterns just didn't ring true. Would you disregard those instinctive feelings as perhaps "devils attacking you to drive you away" from this wonderful person, or would you pay attention to your instincts and instead pay closer attention to the individual because something may be seriously wrong?

Now consider what you are saying in your post, you appear to have grown up in SGI and despite that fact you continue to have deep concerns about where the organization has gone and what the motivations are of the leadership (on high and also in your closer environment). Add to this that since you have been a leader for a considerable amount of time, I'll bet that through that time you have learned a lot about what is right, wrong, real and what is fake.

Perhaps all of those warning signals are flashing at you right now, and for a reason! Beware that your long association with SGI and your personal comfort zone may be blinding your "buddha eye" to what may be obviously in front of you. (yes, people other than Ikea can have great insight too!) I recall reading in which it said: "there were two kinds of people in the world, those that know right from wrong, and those who had the courage to do something about it".

I practiced for around 25 years with SGI/NSA after being shakubuku'ed and practicing in Japan in the late 60's. I was a leader on up to Chapter level. I participated in many movements and even chauferred several SGI Vice Presidents during some big movements. I was pretty committed then. However, those same concerns would flash for me too. Just prior to the split with the temple I began to have almost continuous "warning signals" and when Ikea and his buddies began to rationalize themselves (and the organization) away from the Temple by Xeroxing Gohonzon's I just said "enough is enough!". Believe me, I could have easily settled back into the rhythm of the practice, embraced the new "master/disciple" meme and refrained from making any waves, however the person who I am would not allow it any longer.

Perhaps you are encountering similar things? I'd make sure I was making the right decision before I re-submerged myself into the organization - you may be investing good time after bad.

You gave some interesting examples of gosho where there is no mention of master/disciple, here is another. Suri and Handoku who in their simpleness embraced the law and attained. I'm sure neither of those two brothers would have understood the nuanced and highly sculpted arguments behind the Master/Disciple rationalizations as well. The parable in fact warns that sometimes, you don't have to be highly sophisticated to grasp the essential truth.

Finally, in the gosho where Nichiren talks about carp that jump the falls to become dragons, he mentions that there are many that are trapped "by hooks and snares along the river's shore" and he winds up the gosho by saying: "such are the trials of any carp that would become a dragon". Could it be that the body of believers has become ensnared in devisive and manipulative rhetoric from those they trusted? If that were the case do you think that perhaps your warning signals might be justified?

Something to think about

Wakatta



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2010 09:26AM by wakatta1.

{{{{{Blue Lady}}}}}
your struggle really resonates. so many of my dear friends, from long time to new members, feel the exact same way. like quiet one, stepping away was not near as difficult as I thought, and my practice has never been more liberating. I think we all know deep in our hearts that our prayers to the Gohonzon, and following the teachings of Nichiren will lead us on our path to enlightenment. how ironic that 20 years ago there was so much indignation at the very thought of a high priest claiming we could not reach enlightenment without him, to now, having such a similar "doctrine" within the gakkai.

for nearly 30 years I gave my all to the organization and the members, and now I'm giving my all to my family, my friends, my neighbors, my co-workers, and myself. it's amazing how relating to people without "gakkai speak" is so refreshing - actually cultivating and cherishing friends who are not members - bonding on a human level no matter their religion, and not having in the back of my mind "how can I get them to a meeting".

bottom line for me was that I simply got tired of making excuses to guests and members of my district for the inevitable rantings of fanatics, or being put in the impossible position of trying to equate attacking the priesthood with creating peace, in the face of the very grave and very real dangers throughout the world. fundamentalism and fanaticism has brought our planet to an unbelievable state of violence and suffering, enough already.

hugs to you Blue Lady, my heart is with you no matter where your path leads.