"I remember some years back seeing an article about some Jewish group (was it Kabbalah?) that was selling T-shirts with Hebrew characters on them. They believed that, when people in society saw these characters, even without having *any* understanding of Hebrew or Judaism, the *seeing* would cause a fundamental change in their lives.

Whether they wanted it or not.

More of the same woo-woo wave-the-hands-it's-magic kind of thinking. "

This can be said as much of chants one doesnt understand, Sokka Gakkai scrolls or supposed Kabbala signs which seen but not understood, supposedly have a beneficial effect.

[forum.culteducation.com]

In the extract below, note the "self centered concern for the individual's welfare." This is what people desperately want when their lives are under seige.

Quote

On page 9 of the Introduction to Occult Mentalities, Brian Vickers suggests:

[books.google.com]

Quote:
"I have drawn on the admirable studies by P. O. Kristeller,
D. P. Walker, and E. H. Gombrich to define the occult's tendency to reify images and E. H. Gombrich to define the occult's tendency to reify images and toa way of distinguishing it from the nonoccult sciences. .

"The occult discourse is essentially symbolic. In whatever discipline - astrology, alchemy, numerology, or magic or magic - nature is significant not in itself but as a system of signs pointing another system of mental categories.

"Objects, plants, stones planets are given various attributes (good/evil, pure/impure, male /female) and fitted into a system of operations that, far from being addressed to to a disinterested study of nature, returns again and again to a self-centered concern with the individual's welfare.

*(Or a disinterested, genuine outward interest in people as people, not as targets for recruitment or appeasment-Corboy)

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What can we do to “plant the seeds of Buddhism” and introduce the young people around us?

I never liked this approach. It treats all relationships as mere means to an end. One doesnt see people as people, one treats them as marks, objects, for one's own "seed planting."

Seeing Jesus in other people or "testifying" never appealed to me either. What is gained if I projected my own image of Jesus onto each and every person I met? I'd no longer see them for who they are. I'd be projecting my own image of Jesus onto them, obliterating them as persons with their own unique histories, hopes, dreams.

And seeing each and every social encounter as an opportunity to "testify"-- seemed to me to turn life into a rat race. Should I speak up? How, when, at what point in the conversation? Yi.

Followers of a one guru, now deceased, who is considered an avatar of God, still speak of opportunities for "good contacts". A mere opportunity to mention "Baba's"name, even if in passing, was and still is regarded by them as an opportunity to put something out there that might elicit curiosity about the guru, if not know, in a future lifetime.

THough the intentions are sweet, this still turns human life into a series of means to end encounters, unless one chooses to associate mostly with one's own belief group. And that may be why such clustering occurs.

And adherants of Anthroposophy, the interpretation of Theosophy done by Rudolf Steiner, base their entire school system (often known as Waldorf) on this principle, that even when the children and non Anthro parents are kept in darkness about the actual belief system underpinning the school and its methods, being exposed to a Steiner designed environment is supposedly good for their 'karma'.

Many parents have been irate when they discovered that the actual belief system was kept from them, on principle that its best to expose people without their knowing it, rather than their knowing about it up front, which would lead them to avoid it and not enroll their kids who would thus miss out on such a glorious opportunity.

(The steiner system is not only a religion, and a quite secretive one at that, its elitist, upper level members feel entitled to hide important features from outsiders and lower level members. And..its also racist. )

Its part of the occult mentality to assign properties to words, chants and numbers, even when one doesnt understand their content. We could not create modern science until ways were found to fix meanings and definations in verbal language so that communciation could be standardized. And the most important step was to find ways to detach numbers from magic and understand them as signs for quantities, not carriers of essence or energy, in and of themselves.

Quote

While we separated ourselves from old friends and sometimes our families because of das org - we know better now, and hopefully have a deeper appreciation for them. This isn't a bad thing; any one we've ever loved has value and it's important that we recognize and appreciate that. We may have caused them sadness and concern over our involvement with sgi, but we're back from the dark side, a little sadder and wiser. And we are better people.

Have you ever seen "Babette's Feast", a Danish movie from 1987? You can rent it off Amazon and watch it on your computer if you like - terrific flick. Anyhow, what you said, Meh, reminded me of the General's speech:

Quote

Mercy and truth have met together. Righteousness and bliss shall kiss one another. Man, in his weakness and shortsightedness believes he must make choices in this life. He trembles at the risks he takes. We do know fear. But no. Our choice is of no importance. There comes a time when our eyes are opened and we come to realize that mercy is infinite. We need only await it with confidence and receive it with gratitude. Mercy imposes no conditions. And lo! Everything we have chosen has been granted to us. And everything we rejected has also been granted. Yes, we even get back what we rejected. For mercy and truth have met together, and righteousness and bliss shall kiss one another.

Makes better sense in the context of the movie, I'm sure :/

But that, to me, expresses a Buddhist understanding of the fullness of time and accepting the reality of life.

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In hurting myself I have hurt the strong foundation of my family and abused the freedom of choice.

You were doing your best :)

That's just where you were. You weren't out to harm anyone - you didn't have evil intent. I think people will be able to see and appreciate that.

Quote

see ourselves as somehow flawed for believing that sgi could help us become the people we'd like to be.

But that's so natural for people! Advertising exploits this *delusion* relentlessly! "Use this lotion and look 20 years younger" (because no one wants you as you are) "Try our diet plan and lose 30 lbs in 2 months!" (because no one likes a fatty and that's what YOU are - fatty!) "Look how attractive the people in this new car are!" (if you buy the car, everyone will think YOU're attractive, too!)

It used to be cigarette ads, showing beautiful people doing amazing fun things together, having the time of their lives - if you just start smoking their brand, THIS COULD BE YOU!!

So what you described so succinctly is, I'm afraid, the human condition, the malaise of civilization. Keeping up with the Joneses.

Babette's Feast hold pride of place on my DVR shelf! One of my favorites - a beautiful movie, on so many levels.

One of the four agreements (another favorite book) advises us to always do our best, and points out that our best is going to vary from day to day, from moment to moment. That's all we can ask of ourselves, and to forgive ourselves for today's best maybe not being as good as last Tuesday's. A person who was very dear to me (and passed away 16 years ago this past spring) once said that as long as he could look himself in the mirror at the end of the day and knew that he'd been the best person he could have been, he was ok with himself. In our society, we tend to measure ourselves by what someone else's idea of "best" is, instead of setting our own standards.

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And seeing each and every social encounter as an opportunity to "testify"-- seemed to me to turn life into a rat race. Should I speak up? How, when, at what point in the conversation? Yi.

You're absolutely right, corboy, and I found a ray of hope in this article:

Quote

How to sell Christianity? Ask an atheist.

Jim Henderson is a recovering evangelist. Back in his soul-chasing, church-starting days, he began hearing a grating dissonance between his faith in Jesus and the way he went about winning new converts. Henderson realized he was doing unto others what he would never want done unto him. He was manipulating conversations to set up a pitch. Viewing people as potential notches on his evangelism belt rather than fellow sojourners and prospective friends. Listening only to the extent it could reveal an argumentative opening. He realized he hated the whole enterprise.

"I told the people in my church, 'I don't like evangelizing, and I know you hate it, so I've decided that I'm formally resigning from witnessing. You're all free to do so the same,' " Henderson recalls. "I said, 'I love Jesus, you love Jesus, and we all want to connect people with Jesus. But we're gonna have to figure out new ways to do it.' "

In the 15 years since, Henderson has blazed a new path as an innovator, author, church-evaluator, self-professed subversive, and leader in the creation of new ways to be publicly and persuasively Christian in the 21st century. Maybe the most subversive — and sensible — surprise of all is the population to which this well-caffeinated Seattle man has turned for partners, friends and teachers: atheists.

What could a Christian possibly learn from atheists? A lot, it turns out. As more and more Jesus followers like Henderson are discovering, taking a look at yourself and your religion through the eyes of the unconvinced can be a revelatory experience. (This is why cults do not want their members hanging around with non-members.)

Although he is just north of 60, Henderson is emblematic of an up-and-coming wave of evangelicals intent on course correction for the church. Through public-opinion research, grassroots dialogue and ears to the shifting ground, they are getting the message that the old ways don't cut it anymore. (Or, for our purposes, the Japanese ways don't cut it anymore.)

The shift has serious implications for the age-old mission to evangelize — the focus of untold generations of well-intentioned Christians compelled to live out the Great Commission that Jesus laid out in the Gospel of Matthew ("Go and make disciples of all nations"). The standard argumentative approach — built around "spiritual laws," A-to-B-to-Z logic, and black-and-white propositions about the one religious truth — seems more counterproductive with each passing year, more likely to repel than persuade.

What do Christians learn when they start listening to atheists? Henderson, author of the forthcoming book The Outsider Interviews, has found that the "I'm right/you're wrong" model is a conversation-killer par excellence. So is speaking of non-converts as "lost." "Nothing sets off an atheist more than hearing a Christian say, 'I know Jesus is God and that I'm going to heaven when I die,' " Henderson says. "They also notice that we often say it loudly and arrogantly, which only serves to reinforce their negative opinion of our certainty."

Atheists are also wary of being seen as "projects." Does continued contact and eventual friendship with the Christian in their life depend on them converting? (In my experience, it absolutely does, and within a limited timeframe. Take too long or refuse, and the Christian is off chasing after a new target - you'll never hear from him/her again.)

When Doug asked me what advice I would have for the assembled missionaries in training, the answer came quickly: If you want to have influence, I said, you have to be willing to be influenced. If not, I asked, would anyone want to have a conversation with you?

Conventional evangelism is often accused, and rightly so, of "bait and switch" tactics; think attractive social gathering or sports outing that, unbeknownst to invitees, is really designed to segue into a Gospel pitch. Henderson has a fascinating alternative to propose: all bait, no switch.

Call it promotion by non-promotion, evangelism by attraction, goodwill mongering, or letting one's life speak for itself, but this is what will best represent the faith among the many Americans who do not share the evangelical faith. Henderson and his fellow travelers are right in urging would-be evangelists simply to get to know people, become their friends and let the spiritual chips fall where they may.

This re-imagined form of witness trumpets good news all around -- for Christians who, as Henderson puts it, want to be "normal," for the public credibility of Christianity, and for all of the not-yet and never-will-be converts who don't want to be pitied or demonized for (supposedly) living in the dark.

These new-century Jesus representatives seem to be arriving at just the right formula for making their faith real and known in these changing times: no formula.
[usatoday30.usatoday.com]

I also ran across this article by a Shin priest (that's Nembutsu to you), that I found extremely sensible and respectful:

Quote

The last important difference between Shin and Christianity which we will discuss has to do with the concept of conversion.

Christians believe that all people in the world must accept Christ, and missionaries undergo all sorts of hardship to bring the gospel of Jesus to all mankind. Christians "have a story to tell to the nations." They go to teach and elevate people.

Shin missionaries, on the other hand, go out to seek people who have similar opinions to their own. They invite them to join them in their activities. Shin regards entrance into the Hongwanji as a union of attitudes. The basis of these religious attitudes lies in one's past experiences. No amount of arguing or teaching can bring these attitudes about without there having been the necessary conditioning experiences in one's past.

Shin does not believe that everyone will or must become a Shin follower. It is said that Sakya taught 84,000 different doctrinal systems so that there might be one suited to each possible kind of human personality. Shin, as one of these many doctrines, will find kindred spirits in every country of the world, but were any one country even -let alone the whole world- to follow Shin alone, it would be a sure sign that Shin is not a true doctrine. (No wonder Nichiren hated them so much! Of all the sects of Buddhism in the world, Shin aka Nembutsu has the most followers - thanks to China, of course.)

With regard to conversion, then, Christianity and Shin are quite different. Christianity finds evidence of its truth in the fact that all people will accept it. Shin takes universal acceptance as a sign of not being a true doctrine. [www.seattlebetsuin.com]

And that, gentle readers, is the difference between a *tolerant* religion and an INTOLERANT religion!

Quote
corboy
Many of us in the US arrive because we left or were scared away from our home nations. Once here, there's disorientation. More of us are scattered and dont have kinship networks. Recent immigrants struggle to make sense of it all, and American and British society have both become more complex.

You've just described just about every single "pioneer" gakkai cult member I've ever known. They embraced the Japanese pseudo-buddhist cult and viola! - instant new community of like-minded individuals and acceptance.

Quote
corboy
Those are the times when the strongest of us will secretly, if we admit it, have times when we'd like to crawl into bed, pull the blanket over our heads and hope Mom or Dad will take care of it all.

After my mother died, (dad had died years earlier), an older cousin who had lost both his parents said, "You're facing a big one. When both your parents die, no one stands between you and death. You have to face the abyss, all by yourself. Sorry to depress the hell out of you."

I replied, "I'd rather hear that than bullshit." Still hurt, though.

All, so very true, for all of us. Love that last remark - my sentiments exactly.

Quote
corboy
And the sneakiest times are when we are completely unconscious that we want someone else to tell us The Answer and Give Instructions.

Its when we are unconscious of that desire that we are so very vulnerable.

Its our glory and our danger as human beings. And it overrides intelligence, sophistication and education.

Again, so very, very true.


*****

Quote
holly_golightly
If everyone is nodding and smiling and making out they are hearing something brilliant and profound, the peer pressure itself causes people to join in and agree even if they haven't a clue what the person is talking about, so they don't come across as stupid. I certainly remember sitting there wondering why I found it so repetitive and boring but then saying how wonderful it was after - so lame!

You and me, both. You just described how I often felt during and after meetings (repetitive and boring). All superficial pap, to my mind. Shallow and no substance, while everyone else was bowled over by some imaginary depth and perceived magical powers.

"Lame" is the perfect adjective to sum it all up.


*****

Quote
corboy
"I remember some years back seeing an article about some Jewish group (was it Kabbalah?) that was selling T-shirts with Hebrew characters on them. They believed that, when people in society saw these characters, even without having *any* understanding of Hebrew or Judaism, the *seeing* would cause a fundamental change in their lives.

Whether they wanted it or not.

More of the same woo-woo wave-the-hands-it's-magic kind of thinking. "

This can be said as much of chants one doesnt understand, Sokka Gakkai scrolls or supposed Kabbala signs which seen but not understood, supposedly have a beneficial effect.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
corboy

Quote

What can we do to “plant the seeds of Buddhism” and introduce the young people around us?

I never liked this approach. It treats all relationships as mere means to an end. One doesnt see people as people, one treats them as marks, objects, for one's own "seed planting."

The above is EXACTLY how hardcore Ikeda-bots view other people and their world. "I'm here to save you (and get my fortune benefit in the process!), and if you don't see that, then it's your loss!" "NEXT!!"

This tendency also sheds light on to the Jekyll-Hyde split personality that often manifests with many hardcore gakkai cultie members.

*****

Quote
corboy
Its part of the occult mentality to assign properties to words, chants and numbers, even when one doesnt understand their content. We could not create modern science until ways were found to fix meanings and definations in verbal language so that communciation could be standardized. And the most important step was to find ways to detach numbers from magic and understand them as signs for quantities, not carriers of essence or energy, in and of themselves.

Quoted for truth. The essence of what is going on with it all.



- Hitch

Continuing education resource:

Have recently found a book, meaty but quite readable, entitled

The Measure of Reality: Quantification and Western Society 1250--1600 by Alfred W. Crosby

[www.google.com]

Professor Crosby, in just 240 pages, gives a tour of how a special stance developed in Europe began between 1270 to 1350 -- and set the background for modern science.

A drive to quantify/measure time, distance, even music in ways that were standardized and could be recorded. This made it possible to develop maps, navigational aids, double entry book keeping, and standardize monetary units, measurement, and more.

Crosby begins by describing the ancient 'venerable' model for understanding time, space, distance geography, which was heavily symbolic and laden with metaphor.

This new stance of quantification and a passion for measurement and standardization was something new that has made our mindset quite different from that of our ancestors.

After spending a lot of time reading and writing on Rick Ross's message board, I have become curious about what has made evidence based thinking possible--precisely because many of us when in panic, opt for magical, symbolic thought.

And because today so many are alive because of scientific medicine and public health, yet devalue it in favor of occultist magical models of thought that could not have given us the resources that have assisted so many of us to live long enough to think these same resources to be oppressive.

(Am biased. Would not have survived a recent bout of dehydration following stomach flu had it not been for what we learned just 50 years ago about rehydration and ambulance transport.

I was born six weeks early and would not have lived had I not been born into a part of the world where care for premature infants had become available.

My father might not have lived long enough to marry had he not found his way to a relief camp in Russia set up according to modern logistics, modern sanitation, and with food prepared with what was then known about dietetics.)

So...if anyone feels interested in revisiting the roots of modern, evidence based science and what created the mindset that launched this---Crosby's book is great good fun.

The same cults that tell us to discard precision of thought and put our trust in wishful thinking take care to keep hard headed attorneys, real estate experts, and IT specialists on hand.

Quick note: Dodd, in his book, The Greeks and the Irrational, tells us that it was the combination of military defeat in the Peloponnesian War and a devastating plague that ended the brief period of democracy and experiments in free inquiry in Athens. This was followed by a dictatorship, large quantities of curses, recorded on tablets found later by archeologists.
[forum.culteducation.com]

And, Dodd tells us that it was around the 300s BCE that astrology entered the Greek world as an import from the Near East. It was an import, and rapidly took hold, because by the 300s, the city states and participator democracy had been mostly replaced by military dictators, people lost the sense of agency they had as citizens and their lives felt more unpredictable. In this Hellenistic world, which replaced the self contained city states, new cultural influences poured in from Iran and the Near East and Egypt, the various kings shifted around, and people needed some sense of orientation and agency.

Local loyalties and traditions no longer made sense. The world opened up, but was in flux.

So..this was when astrology and magic became popular in the Greek speaking world.

And remained so during and long after the Romans took over.

And some had many complaints to make about quackery.

Lucian of Samosata (late second century CE) a Greek speaking teacher of rhetoric and travelling teacher, wrote two descriptions/exposes of gurus. One was named Alexander and he ran a healing cult with an alleged holy snake.

[www.google.com]

The other guru was named Perigrinus.

[www.google.com]

So this stuff has been around for a long time.

Back to SGI.

Essay review of Professor Crosby's The Measure of Reality here:

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

Human beings ask questions, hoping to find answers that explain an overwhelmingly uncontrollable world. If we can wrap a little bit of logic around something, we have the illusion of control - that's why we have such a compulsion to name things and try so desperately to understand them. When we find an answer that makes sense to us, we stop looking; when that answer stops making sense to us, we start searching again. It's only when those original answers are no longer useful that we move on.

I'm a reiki master; while there is no scientific evidence to support that it works, in some cases it just does. I've never cured cancer (nor do I expect to), but I've been able to help people be a little more at ease with their condition. The only available explanation is a psychosomatic one; the person I'm working on believes that it works, I help them relax a bit and, because they believe that what I'm doing is helpful, the body may start to release endorphins helping them to feel a little better. Do I care that most people would term reiki as superstitious mumbo-jumbo? Not really. I used to work on an elderly lady who once said to me "I don't know what you do, but it always makes me feel safe and like everything is going to be alright." That's good enough for me.

Modern medicine is a great thing; I was thinking about the survivors of the Boston bombing a couple of months ago. Many of them suffered amputations - during the American Civil War, they would have been given a shot of whisky (if they were lucky) and a leather strap to bite down on while the surgeon sawed their limb off. Survival rates were unsurprisingly low. It's completely amazing that the death toll from the event in Boston was as low as it was, and that's due in large part to modern medicine.

It's like sgi, though. Unless you ask questions and advocate for yourself, you're in a certain amount of danger. Stories of people who are on multiple medications that don't combine well are everyday occurrence; people go into hospital and succumb to terrible infections that they picked up there, or they receive the wrong surgery . . .

The bottom line is we need to keep asking those questions until we are completely satisfied with the answers.

An interesting article on the power of the Buddha's deductive reasoning, presumably developed through introspection:

[www.tricycle.com]

Nichijew

Outstanding book recommendations, Corboy. Thanks.

*****

Re: $GI CULT

Cousin Rufus (Kosen Rufu) thru human pyramid building / roller skating human pyramid building / mass flag marching (oxymoronic, I know) / beating on (taiko) drums / brass band (kotekitai) marching / (I'm sure there are even more that I'm forgetting) . . . .

And, now, add Jump Rope for Cousin Rufus [www.youtube.com].

I think this guy's on to something. :-))


- Hitch