Sparky's slow-gongyo-on-the-mountaintop cabdriver sounded interesting, so I googled "slow gongyo" and "Reverend Kando Tono." Turns out that this Nichiren Shoshu priest, the Reverend Tono, DID have issues with how fast the American Soka Gakkai members did gongyo. He did try to get the New York City members to do slower gongyo. (The twice-daily chanting that many Nichiren Buddhists perform.) What a bizarre coincidence if Sparky's wife's cabbie was actually Kando himself. Maybe Tono started his own cabdrivers' slow chanting sect in New York and Sparky's wife met one of Tono's followers? Buddhism has been described as "a ship to cross the sea of suffering." Perhaps it can also be a taxicab to cross the five burroughs.

The Reverend Tono was a "Shoshinkai" priest. These priests actually took on both the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood and the Soka Gakkai, criticizing both the High Priest, Nikken Abe, and Soka Gakkai President Ikeda. You have to admire the courage of these mostly-young priests; they were David taking on TWO Goliaths -- and of course they didn't win. How could they, against two such powerful men? Nikken kicked Tono out of the priesthood -- to the enthusiastic applause of the senior Soka Gakkai officials. Probably the last thing they ever agreed on, before Soka Gakkai leaders started complaining "The problem with the Nichiren Shoshu priests is that they can't take criticism."

The Soka Gakkai, with it's spin machine, now insists that the problem was that Tono thought he could have both a Japanese wife and an American mistress. Who knows? The Soka Gakkai certainly has a penchant for slandering anyone who disagrees with them...or maybe Tono was just a guy who had a thing for slow gongyo and fast women. (I'll refrain from making cheap cracks about his drive.)

This has been a very good discussion! It's good to hear so many opinions from outside sources! I doubt i'll ever give up Buddhism, but I feel I may end up splitting with the SGI.

As for now, i'm going to stick with my local chapter, continue to not donate any money to the already rich organization, and the peace initiatives at my college. However, if I for any reason see corruption seeping into our community center, I will not hesitate to leave. You have all shown me what to look out for! I have a sneaking suspicion that there are some others that may continue a seperate practice away from the Ikeda-focused current SGI.

I think the changing force will be Ikeda's death. I fear they will elevate him to even further importance after this. I feel this may when the splits happen.

Thank you for the very insightful replies!

I was so thrilled to find this forum. I've been trying since yesterday to join and my e-mail server kept screwing up. Anyway, here I am. I've read just about everything on this site relating to SGI and elsewhere.

I received my Gohonzon I believe last February. I paid $30 for the privilege. What happened previous to this was in September of 2009 I was approached my while I was walking my dog and she was walking with this group every morning. She apparently felt that I was in great mental anguish, which I was, definitely. I had taken an anti-depressant (Paxil) for seven years and it had demolished my life and almost killed me during the withdrawal. It's been a brutal almost three-year withdrawal. Needless to say emotionally and physically I was in a very, very bad place -- I didn't even know who I was anymore. Anyway, I went to a meeting in September of 2009 at my neighbor's house and it seemed great. Chanting for what you want, what you need, for happiness? Whatever. Sounded great. I don't have to stop being a Catholic? Even better. I had gone back to mass a month earlier and that was my home on Sunday evenings. I felt immense peace there and prayer had definitely kept me alive to this point plus a group called PaxilProgress, plus Al-Anon once a week to deal with the problem that had led me to Paxil -- my son's alcoholism.

Anyway, in the beginning it was benign, no pressure and I felt, wow, I'm among really caring people. This was my first exposure to Buddhism ever. I started going to these monthly meetings at different houses and I heard the experiences. I assumed at the time that this woman, my neighbor, was my mentor. And she would talk about I have to chant with determination because I have fundamental darkness and this is the only way to get rid of it. I did grit my teeth when she would make subtle disparaging remarks about belief in God and she would make really erroneous comments regarding the Pope and other things (like blindly following the Pope or having to go through a priest for everything). I let it go. After all, I didn't want to lose a new friend.

So time has gone on and a few months ago I went to the Community Center in Queens and that's when I first started to feel uncomfortable. It wasn't the chanting and everything. It was a film featuring Ikeda that got to me. It seemed incredibly over the top by any standard. That was in May of 2008. I will say that now that I've done a lot of research the cult atmosphere all falls into place -- people getting up on the stage and talking about good fortunes that happened to them as a result of donations to SGI. And I gave $25 that day, which really was a hardship, but somehow my neighbor convinced me was very important for the work they do (keeping on the lights, etc.). That was the first and last big meeting that I went to. I still went to homes and chanted, but I was feeling increasing pressure to get the magazine. I was told by a senior member to chant for the money for this. Now in light of all my other pressing financial problems that felt like the most ridiculous thing and I did not chant for that. But I was getting the Tribune and that was starting to read more and more like propaganda to me.

My neighbor constantly asked me if I was still going to church on Sunday. I said yes, of course, I'm happy there. With the economy taking I was seeing all the incredible work that our parish ministry did for people in and outside of the parish -- our food pantry, our free store, totally stocked through the generosity of others who just wanted to help others in need. I started to think about this in contrast to the SGI meetings, which were starting to sound like more like Amway. They wanted you to bring someone new to the meeting -- some membership driving going on. I didn't do it. I've never experienced this kind of thing as a Catholic. I found myself at odds with this. Christmas came and poor as I was, I latched onto the beauty a spirituality of Christmas and stopped chanting. I felt guilty over this because I had been told my life would not get better without chanting, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It was starting to ring hollow. About a week ago I had a disturbing conversation with my neighbor, who told me that my belief in God would not help me and that if I didn't chant my life would never improve. We had been meeting every Thursday morning for chanting and I had been finding lots of excuses not to do this. I was discovering that my friend's life was all SGI and that seemed to be her whole reason for living. So yesterday, during a down time in my work, I googled SGI cult, and that's what got me here.

I feel embarrassed and a bit angry. I've always felt myself smart and I felt I could spot a cult a mile away, pyramid schemes were never able to get me because I always check everything. My dad taught me if it's too good to be true ... you know the rest. So I guess you could say that my suspicions about SGI came about as a result of their lack of seeming lack charity and lack of compassion for others. Even though I don't have money I still trying to find ways of helping people, even if it's just saying something nice, praying for them or donating something beautiful that I've made to a child I will probably never meet. This is me, this is who I was pre-Paxil, and this is what I want to get back -- the good side of me that disappeared for the seven long years I was on that drug.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. I have the Gohonzon housed in a Butsudan that my neighbor actually gave me -- I didn't have to buy this. I'm just very confused. I'm tempted to leave things as they are. By the way, she had pics of all three SGI presidents on the wall and lots of pics of Ikeda on a very elaborate alter. She calls Japan or another SGI member for every move she makes in her life, which I had also found disconcerting. After over 30 years in SGI she couldn't think through anything on her own. I found that very sad.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I don't want to ruffle feathers here, but I was just so, so upset with everything that I read yesterday regarding SGI. And the only thing I want to ask here is why, even after so short a time, and with my Catholic faith intact at this point, am I feeling guilty or a feeling that something bad is going to happen to me now because I'm not chanting. It's very disconcerting.

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KittyLuv
Anyway, in the beginning it was benign, no pressure and I felt, wow, I'm among really caring people.

It was a film featuring Ikeda that got to me. It seemed incredibly over the top by any standard.

-- people getting up on the stage and talking about good fortunes that happened to them as a result of donations to SGI.

I still went to homes and chanted, but I was feeling increasing pressure to get the magazine. I was told by a senior member to chant for the money for this.

. They wanted you to bring someone new to the meeting -- some membership driving going on.

About a week ago I had a disturbing conversation with my neighbor, who told me that my belief in God would not help me and that if I didn't chant my life would never improve.

I was discovering that my friend's life was all SGI and that seemed to be her whole reason for living.

I feel embarrassed and a bit angry. I've always felt myself smart and I felt I could spot a cult a mile away, pyramid schemes were never able to get me because I always check everything.

By the way, she had pics of all three SGI presidents on the wall and lots of pics of Ikeda on a very elaborate alter. She calls Japan or another SGI member for every move she makes in her life, which I had also found disconcerting.

And the only thing I want to ask here is why, even after so short a time, and with my Catholic faith intact at this point, am I feeling guilty or a feeling that something bad is going to happen to me now because I'm not chanting. It's very disconcerting.

Kitty, what you are describing sounds so very familiar. I have not been to an SGI meeting in over two years and it sounds like nothing has changed. They're so kind and encouraging at first and then it starts. The over-the-top videos glorifying President Ikeda, the pictures of him on or near the altar, the pressure to subscribe to the World Tribune and Living Buddhism magazine (as well as buying Ikeda's books). The members giving "experiences" about how they made financial donations to SGI and then wonderful things (often financial and material gains) happen as a result. The membership drives. The pressure to bring guests to meetings. The fortune-telling: "Oh, you have all this fundamental darkness and you will never improve your life if you don't chant/participate in more SGI activities" mindset. The way so many members let SGI take over their lives totally -- spending hours on chanting, enormous amounts of time on SGI meetings and activities, not making a decision without getting "guidance" from SGI leaders -- many of whom are not necessarily qualified to advise anyone on anything.

I have heard of people being told that they shouldn't take antidepressants -- that that was "not showing enough faith." Instead, they were advised to treat their depression by chanting more daimoku and doing more SGI activities. I have also heard of an SGI leader who had diabetes. What with her job, family, and all the SGI activities, she was finding it difficult to eat meals at regular times, cook healthful meals, and exercise as she needed to do to control her blood sugar. Her leaders' guidance was that she needed to do MORE SGI activities --- that this would help her "break through her fundamental darkness" and control the blood sugar. Sorry, but this is just appalling! If you are not a trained health care provider -- and familiar with the individual's medical history -- you have NO BUSINESS giving this kind of advice!

I can also relate to your fear that something bad will happen to you if you don't chant. I've felt that. I also have felt that something bad could happen to me if I questioned or criticized the organization. Why? I am an intelligent person who questions things. How did I get into SGI, and how did I get this particular fear?

Well, it's definitely easier to be manipulated if you are in crisis. Before I joined SGI, my then- fiance had decided he didn't want to marry me, and I had also been fired, after several tense months of trying to please a difficult new boss. My ex, and my career had meant everything to me. I was just heartbroken -- no hope, no self-confidence. People told me "Oh, you'll find a better job and a better guy." That didn't help. I didn't WANT anyone else. I didn't want a different job. I wanted my old life back -- and I couldn't have it! I was in the worst pain I'd ever been in. And then my friend begins inviting me to SGI meetings, and people are telling me that I can chant for anything, I can be happy, I can get anything I want. Maybe some little voice in me said, "Come on, this is not realistic." If the voice said that, I wasn't listening. I didn't want to hear it. I was just desperate for the pain to stop.

The SGI members always seemed so kind, and hopeful. SGI just did not fit my stereotype of a cult...I guess I thought of cults as being more like the Moonies or Hare Krishnas. You went off to live with them in a commune, followed very extreme religious teachings, dressed in an unusual way, ate a vegetarian diet, gave up all of your freedom and personal property, married whoever they told you to, even if he was a complete stranger. You did whatever work they told you to do. That, to me, was a cult. I'd have run away so fast from anything like that. With SGI, you didn't have to renounce the world -- on the contrary, leaders encouraged you to be IN the world, as a good student, employee, neighbor, family member. You could be gay, straight, single, or married; you could pursue the career of your choice. You lived in your own apartment or house, in the city, country or suburbs--whatever you wanted and could afford. Nobody told you to shun nonmembers. You didn't have to become a vegetarian. Nah, it couldn't possibly be a cult.

As time went by, I noticed more and more things about SGI that bothered me -- but I told myself "Nothing's perfect...your family's not perfect, but you still love them and they're still your family. There are still things I like about SGI -- I shouldn't let the few things that I don't like bother me too much. Maybe I'm just too critical." Until I got to the point where there were just too many things -- and I could no longer ignore them.

But why the fear? I don't know. Certainly SGI TELLS you that -- that your life will fall apart if you quit chanting, quit SGI, or even question it. They say it, but WHY do we come to believe it? I think that people are influenced by those around them, much as we'd like to think we're so independent. You can be smart and independent and still yearn to fit in with those around you, to be loved, accepted, respected.

I also wonder if the chanting doesn't have something to do with it. I can go to extremes, sometimes, either being depressed and lethargic, or anxious and hyper. Chanting seems to put me in the middle -- where I can be calm and energetic and focused. I think that chanting actually affects my brain, in a positive way. For that reason, I have not given it up. John Knapp has posted on culteducation.com -- he's counselled people who've gotten heavily into chanting and meditation. He has said that chanting and meditation can also make a person more easily influenced, more inclined to suspend his or her more linear critical thinking, like hypnosis. Makes sense. What did we do at SGI meetings? Chant a lot. And then we'd hear "experiences," and all this talk about the wonders of Ikeda and SGI, (and, by extension, how bad life would be without them.) Perhaps the chanting primed us to believe the SGI propaganda more deeply than we would have otherwise. Especially if you went to several meetings a week, as many of us did in the late eighties, when I joined.

wow, there is some amazing info in this thread, that will help a lot of people who are caught up in SGI.
Typing out your personal info like this can help the writer, and many readers.

The way SGI is designed for recruiting people is classic and by the book. They start out friendly and easy-going, and then slowly bring in all the other stuff. This is all very carefully designed, by tried and true methods.

Also, when they make the pitch that a large donation to SGI = a large reward in your life, that also is a very very common tactic in these types of groups. They then get SGI people to go up and say that after they gave SGI a ton of money, then they made a ton of money. In a few cases, by coincidence, that might be true. But I think people would be shocked to find out how many of those SGI people are telling fibs and lies. They may tell the fib to please their SGI mentor, they may even delude themselves.
I am sure the senior SGI people would approve of SGI people lying to their congregations, with some rationalization.

The problem with the obsessive SGI chanting, is that if a person has a bit of OCD, or an anxiety disorder of some sort, they can get into very very serious trouble. I knew one SGI girl who was obviously an anxiety-prone person, who became a chanting addict. I would see her go into another room and "chant" ant social events due to social anxiety. She would chant under her breath, it becomes pathological.

The irony is for an outsider, is that chanting does not change anything, obviously. How could it?
So for SGI, its perfect, as since obsessive chanting doesn't work, then people get drawn further and further into SGI, until they are totally dependent.

But the anxiety and "doom" feelings could come from automatic thoughts like..."if I don't chant then bad things are going to happen to me!".
In cognitive therapy, you would change the thought to "its ok if I don't chant, billions of people don't chant and do ok". etc.
One might also do "behavioral experiments" like...deciding to NOT chant for a week, and then writing down all the "horrible" things one might think will happen, and then comparing it to what does happen.
That is a very powerful cognitive therapy method.

of course, anxiety and feelings of doom, threat, fear, are challenging to deal with. That would fall under an anxiety type of disorder. So that would be something, if its bad enough, to see a trained professional, like a psychologist. Most cities even have Anxiety Clinics people can attend.

These groups really are tricky and very dangerous for many people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2009 01:25PM by The Anticult.

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The Anticult
But I think people would be shocked to find out how many of those SGI people are telling fibs and lies. They may tell the fib to please their SGI mentor, they may even delude themselves.

The problem with the obsessive SGI chanting, is that if a person has a bit of OCD, or an anxiety disorder of some sort, they can get into very very serious trouble. I knew one SGI girl who was obviously an anxiety-prone person, who became a chanting addict. I would see her go into another room and "chant" ant social events due to social anxiety. She would chant under her breath, it becomes pathological.

SGI members get endless pressure from leaders to give testimony at meetings. It's called "giving an experience," or telling about your "benefit." ( a good thing that you get for practicing Buddhism.) If you are not giving experiences often enough, the leaders will tell you that you are not practicing Buddhism well. You're a slacker, as the point of SGI Buddhism is to have a lot of problems and overcome them!

So, you go to a meeting and give an experience. You get up and talk about how you had a problem and then resolved it by chanting more and giving more time or money to SGI. Your story has to have a happy ending. At the end of your talk, everyone is excited for you, and applauds -- you're the center of attention, you've succeeded, you've given others hope that they can too! Everyone's feeling good about practicing SGI's Buddhism! The crowd is happy for you and proud of you! Aren't we so lucky to be SGI members! Shouldn't we try to get everyone else to join SGI so that they can be lucky like us! It's a rush and sure, some people may be inclined to fib and stretch the truth a bit to get it.

SGI members often spend large amounts of time chanting and working for SGI. How are leaders going to get you to do this if there ISN'T the pay off of "a benefit," or "an experience?" I think that this leads people to interpret their circumstances and coincidences through this filter. Good thing happened? It's because I chant. Bad thing happened? I didn't chant enough. I didn't clap hard enough when they showed the President Ikeda video. A woman I knew gave her testimony at a meeting: she was unemployed and finally found a good job, and it was all due to chanting several hours a day. Well, yes, but she also spent many hours a day LOOKING for a job -- making the calls, networking, sending out resumes, going to companies and talking to anyone who'd talk to her. In addition to making sure that she had the proper training for the jobs she wanted. THAT got her the job, but no, she insisted it was the chanting. I heard so many stories like that in my years with SGI.

People just want so badly to believe that their lives have changed -- and it's all due to their involvement with SGI. The long-term members I knew kept saying that their practice of SGI Buddhism changed them so much. I knew some of them for ten or fifteen years. Maybe I'm missing something, but I saw little or no change in them over the years. They still had the same personalities, the same temper or laziness, the same job, health, financial, relationship or family problems.

Anticult, your chanting-addict friend reminds me of a former friend of mine who's heavily involved in SGI. I went on vacation once with her, and another friend of ours who isn't an SGI member. My SGI friend just became extremely anxious, perhaps from being away from home and in a strange place. We were at this beautiful beach -- and all she wanted to do was sit in the motel room, very withdrawn and irritable, curtains drawn, and chant for hours. Our non-SGI friend and I tried to get her to come out and do things with us, and she refused. All she wanted to do was sit in that motel room and chant. She'd come out for meals and that was about it. So, the other girl and I just went out without her and had fun...what were we going to do?

I talked with this SGI friend after we returned home, telling her that I'd had counselling and had also taken medication when I was younger. It helped me; maybe it would help her? She became furious and no longer speaks to me. But she's another one who swore up and down that SGI changed her life for the better. I don't see how. I knew her for fifteen years, and she was anxious, irritable and unhappy for all of those years. I think that the chanting perhaps takes the edge off of her anxiety, and all the work she does for SGI perhaps distracts her from some of her misery. Yet without SGI's distractions, maybe she'd have been forced to face her anxiety and pain years ago -- and get REAL help for it.

CBT does help. I does take longer if your anxiety, OCD and depression was drug-induced, as mine was. These conditions truly have a mind of their own then. I had six months of non-stop adrenal rushes, shakes, twitching, insomnia and the heart palpitations -- you really think you're going to die. It does get better with time. How long it takes is different for everyone. The mind is what takes longest to heal, hence long-term CBT training, mindfulness also helps -- there's a lot of different techniques that my therapist and I have worked on over two years, and slowly I am healing.

"In cognitive therapy, you would change the thought to "its ok if I don't chant, billions of people don't chant and do ok". etc. One might also do "behavioral experiments" like...deciding to NOT chant for a week, and then writing down all the "horrible" things one might think will happen, and then comparing it to what does happen. That is a very powerful cognitive therapy method."

I was using this technique pre-SGI and now I'm using it again and it helps a lot. It's all about perspective and getting back common sense.

"SGI members often spend large amounts of time chanting and working for SGI. How are leaders going to get you to do this if there ISN'T the pay off of "a benefit," or "an experience?" I think that this leads people to interpret their circumstances and coincidences through this filter. Good thing happened? It's because I chant. Bad thing happened? I didn't chant enough. I didn't clap hard enough when they showed the President Ikeda video. A woman I knew gave her testimony at a meeting: she was unemployed and finally found a good job, and it was all due to chanting several hours a day. Well, yes, but she also spent many hours a day LOOKING for a job -- making the calls, networking, sending out resumes, going to companies and talking to anyone who'd talk to her. In addition to making sure that she had the proper training for the jobs she wanted. THAT got her the job, but no, she insisted it was the chanting. I heard so many stories like that in my years with SGI."

My very first meeting I heard this exact same "experience" from someone. Wild, isn't it? It was the same day I decided to go for it and plunked down my $30 for my Gohonzon. The job lasted for about six months. As far as I know she's jobless again.

I'm eternally grateful that I have gotten out of this early. After losing over 7 years and my mind to anti-depressant use and over two painful years trying to get it back, I can't imagine what years of overcoming SGI programming would have been like. A major blessing, for sure, and I didn't get it from chanting.

This thread is amazing, one hopes some former SGI people find it. People can post links to the thread in various ex-SGI, or pro-SGI places, with descriptive words.
Just copy/paste the link from the top of the page for this thread.

That way, some SGI who have doubts, can read the intelligent text of the former SGI folks. The former SGI text here is very honest and makes a lot of sense.

SkepDic explains some of the fallacies of: chanting = good things, not-chanting = bad things

Confirmation Bias [skepdic.com]
post hoc fallacy [skepdic.com]
ad hoc hypothesis [skepdic.com]


Also, obsessive chanting is a cognitive distraction. If a person has a lot of pain and anxiety, constant chanting might distract from it for a while. For some folks, it could even be a bit of OCD.
A person could become a chanting addict. If a person chants more than a few times a day, they may be doing too much!
Clearly, SGI uses obsessive chanting as a way to control large groups of people's behavior and thought processes.

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tsukimoto
Anticult, your chanting-addict friend reminds me of a former friend of mine who's heavily involved in SGI. I went on vacation once with her, and another friend of ours who isn't an SGI member. My SGI friend just became extremely anxious, perhaps from being away from home and in a strange place. We were at this beautiful beach -- and all she wanted to do was sit in the motel room, very withdrawn and irritable, curtains drawn, and chant for hours. Our non-SGI friend and I tried to get her to come out and do things with us, and she refused. All she wanted to do was sit in that motel room and chant. She'd come out for meals and that was about it. So, the other girl and I just went out without her and had fun...what were we going to do?

This is really sad. I talked to a lot of people suffering from anxiety in the course of my healing, I noticed that isolation was a common theme, and I was no stranger to that. I can see why chanting would feed into this. I'm very grateful that I had people that were pushing me to get back out into life. There seemed to be a lot of anxious people in SGI and my SGI "mentor" would tell me stories about these various members of the group that I was in and their various conditions -- this one has depression, that one has anxiety -- and they had been in SGI for years. I said, wow, that's amazing. If they've been chanting all this time why haven't they gotten better? Her answer: They're doing it wrong. They don't attend enough meetings and they're not chanting with determination to overcome their fundamental darkness.