@Tibbs, You wrote, "it was never a choice between chanting or anti-depressants. If I hadn't gotten medication, I don't know that I would be here now. That was an attitude I encountered not infrequently in SGI and it really bothered me - that if I really chanted I shouldn't need medication. Depression is an illness and like many illnesses, medication can mean the difference between life or death. When I had cancer, no one ever told me I should just chant and not do chemo. If chanting is enough to keep someone's depression at bay that's fantastic, but there's no shame in getting professional help when you need to." Oh no, no, no! I did not mean that chanting should replace anti-depressants or any kind of medical approach to any illnesses. I could not possibly mean that since I have sought help for illnesses and I know that depression is a very real problem that does not go away by chanting. In fact, I strongly advocated treatment and medication for members who were obviously in need of serious help. The ones who got it improved WHEN they actually chose to take the medications. One woman in my district refused them and had to be ejected from all districts because of her erratic, almost violent behavior. She believed that doing shakubuku and chanting a lot would fix her. It did not at all. Please accept my apology if I made you think I believe chanting fixes everything. What I had meant to communicate was that some of the posts appeared to attribute all benefits of the practice to brain waves, hypnosis, group think, brainwashing, etc. To some there is no room for the positive value of religious practices or organizations. All I meant was that it would be really simple to discount all positive effects of religious practices and just encourage people to go to therapists and get medicated. I don't believe that going to that extreme is necessarily better but I have no authority to diagnose anyone and prescribe treatment.

@sgIwonder, I enjoyed reading that the organization really did help you on a personal, social, and eventually professional level. See, I feel that way too and a few others here do too. I still think that what I considered a lofty goal like "world peace through individual happiness" has a very 60s ring to it. I liked that about the organization. I also became aware that other religious organizations, including the Catholic Church, do a lot of good for their practitioners and for the rest of the world. I know that the same impulse that drives us to pray for improvement of our circumstances can lead us to improve the way we see ourselves, others, and the world we inhabit. Unfortunately I also see how that initial impulse can be exploited by others who may or may not have started out with that intention. Again, I am still not sure how SGI benefits the world, especially since it considers itself a world peace organization. Do its leaders really believe that putting up pictures like G-K-Ikeda exhibit, noting Ikeda's honorary doctorates, peace proposals, or encouraging people to take Ikeda as their mentor, and read his bad poetry and self-aggrandizing Human Revolution are ways of contributing to world peace. Who cares about any of those things? The charter school they have attempted in Boston might be a step in the right direction BECAUSE SGI and its leader are not mentioned anywhere, but how long will that last? You wrote, "For all its faults think SGI compares favorably with most other organized religions -- except for that one where there are no rules, you get what ever you desire on demand, and live forever, guilt-free. The name of that one escapes me right now."I wish I could say that SGI lately compares favorably with other world religions. I have a lot of exposure to people of other faiths who are not being told to accept (their version of) a Japanese man who heads a billion dollar organization as the most enlightened Buddhist ever. The Christians are encouraged to accept Christ as their savior because he is considered the son of God and to most of them he is God. If you believe the stories about him, he was literally miraculous. What in the world qualifies Ikeda to get comparable treatment? What is so wrong with giving him credit for directly and indirectly introducing many to Buddhism, albeit a diluted version of it? What is wrong with seeing him as a man who succeeded in propagating Nichiren Buddhism? Why does it have to be taken to a ridiculous level by telling members to....Oh I better stop now!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 11:57AM by doubtful.

@backnforth & doubtful - I didn't mean for my post to be confrontational towards you two. I just had a brief SGI flashback when I posted that. My apologies.

I completely understand how you feel, doubtful, Tibbs and Nichijew. Even in my days of of being super-gung-ho I did my share of eye-rolling. But I wonder if you cut yourself off from the organization how you sustain yourself and where do you get your encouragement? Don't you find constantly being upset by things draining? Someone mentioned they get it here, but this is a poor substitute for in-person human warmth (fellowship as they say in some churches).

I stayed away a long time, but still missed the group. I could not find any other good substitute in all the things I tried.

Quote
sgIwonder
I completely understand how you feel, doubtful, Tibbs and Nichijew. Even in my days of of being super-gung-ho I did my share of eye-rolling. But I wonder if you cut yourself off from the organization how you sustain yourself and where do you get your encouragement? Don't you find constantly being upset by things draining? Someone mentioned they get it here, but this is a poor substitute for in-person human warmth (fellowship as they say in some churches).

I stayed away a long time, but still missed the group. I could not find any other good substitute in all the things I tried.

Dear SGIwonder:

You feel the way you do because you were taught, over, and over, and over again by the SGI that, without them, you can't make it, either in the secular or religious world. Obviously, in the secular world, there are tons or rich and powerful people. In the Buddhist world, and more specifically, in the Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhist world, nearly any member from whatever sect, is more enlightened than Ikeda, let alone the general members and lower level SGI leaders.

I sustain myself through the Gohonzon for the Transmission of the Dharma, a Nichiren inscribed Gohonzon, the Lotus Sutra, my belief in Shakyamuni Buddha and my good friends in the Dharma, my fellow Bodhisattvas of the Earth in the Kempon Hokke, the Nichiren Shu, the Independent movement, my wife, family, and pets. I chant with my converts and with my wife. When I travel to outlying areas [other regions], I chant with fellow practitioners there. These guys here too, aren't bad. When I think of Nichiren Daishonin's loneliness, vicissitudes, and travails, my hardships melt like dew in the noonday sun.

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2010 03:50AM by Nichijew.

Dear All:

It must have been such an embarrassment that they pulled the September National Area Leader and above Youth Division Audio Encouragement. Even this audience of top youth division leaders couldn't feign much enthusiasm for the personality cults top YD leaders messages. It was quite unnerving, even for me.

Mark

Tibbs, no need to feel bad; please don't spend another minute on it. I don't know why I even mentioned anti-depressants; I was definitely insensitive to people that really need them and rely on them. So, I think it's important for people to be able to have this type of open dialogue and we all learn something. I'm glad you voiced what was in your heart.

It's kinda silly in a way. I'm not very experienced with blogging or chatting on-line, but I feel I'm getting to know some people here a little bit but really don't know them at all. What a strange universe we live in.

@sgiwonder,

I completely agree with your post, it is particularly hard for me at times, because there are LOTS of Buddhist (sgi) where I live, I run into them all the time. I am sort of lucky though, a few of my friends have also left along with me, but I still miss the tozos with all the people and the energy of that. I also miss feeling as if I was part of something great and purposeful that the world really needed. Finding out all the things I have read on this forum and elsewhere has been very shocking to say the least. Maybe sometime soon there will be another group that will meet for tozos.

Morgaine,
I think it is a great thing to hope for - for other groups to be born from the SGI that still want to do the basic practice together. I am in the process of doing some 'investigating' by meeting with people that are still in the Gakkai but may know others that have left, or are feeling dissatisfied due to MDM (my new phrase mentor disciple mistake). I hope my networking can be the beginning of the new group idea. I am still driven to chant and study with others, even introduce those that voice an interest. New people can practice without Gohonzon indefinitely and still see benefit. Until the new groups figure that one out. I know Gohonzons are available online . . . not so sure about that.

Nichijew said:

You feel the way you do because you were taught, over, and over, and over again by the SGI that, without them, you can't make it, either in the secular or religious world. Obviously, in the secular world, there are tons or rich and powerful people. In the Buddhist world, and more specifically, in the Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhist world, nearly any member from whatever sect, is more enlightened than Ikeda, let alone the general members and lower level SGI leaders.

I don't intend to go around hating Daisaku Ikeda and thinking the SGI is the evil of all evils though. That didn't work for the SGI when they decided to blame, blame, blame the Priesthood either, did it? Anyone that thinks they know why people feel the way they do or how enlightened someone is isn't coming from a Buddhist perspective at all in my view . . .

Dear Backnforth:

One of the Ten Honorific Titles of the Buddha is "Truly Omnicient". Another is "Perfect in Illumination and Conduct". Ikeda, for example has made so many errors, it would be difficult to list them all and his conduct and that of his high salaried leaders is reprehensible. Buddhism offer a means, not only to correctly see oneself but to understand the world. The latest SGI slogan is, "We are not Buddhists, we are Buddhas." A lofty claim such as this deserves careful scrutiny. In the light of the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren, in light of their behavior as human beings, for example, in light of their fawning, flattery, and duplicity, it is absurd.

Mark