tsukimoto, After I left, I was told that the reason that things were going well for me was that I had built up fortune from my years of practice and "good causes". That's why everything was going well. But I was warned that my fortune would run out!!

Another way of looking at why things have fallen into place for you lately is that you might feel like I do....I feel liberated! I continue to have ups and downs in life, but in general things are be much better since I'm not being made to feel guilt, stress, etc. SGI dished out a lot that we were supposed to believe, but was so hard to swallow. That can really cause stress, and when you no longer feel that, it can make things in your life go better.

Tsukimoto, as you said, "Now, if I'd been chanting, I would have said that these two things were experiences, caused by my chanting. But I haven't been chanting."

My comment to this would be that our practice of faith, daimoku and positive causes cannot be broken down into some scientific time/space methodology. The daimoku you chanted in the past and will chant in the future will continue to impact your life in past, present and future. Isn't it awesome? It's like when I was 13 and was surrounded by a pack of growling German Shepards, and survived to tell the tale, my daimoku that I had not chanted yet in this lifetime but did in the past and future, surrounded me and protected me. That is my faith point of view anyway. But why did I meet misfortune in other times of my life; well, those were opportunities I brought to myself to specifically grow deeper faith and to grow confidence and courage.

If we are too scientific about everything and take away the faith aspect we can only go so deep with this practice. Let's say I don't chant at all one day; maybe I feel okay about it and know I will get back to it tomorrow, or maybe I am filled with guilt and go to bed with a bad feeling. Will the events I experience next be a result of the lack of chanting? Or, the feeling that I projected into the universe? Overall, I'm at a point in my practice where it is still twice daily. But there is less daimoku quantity and more quality. And I say, if you're feeling okay without chanting, it's probably okay. But I personally, don't expect that you will continue to feel okay indefinitely, because I really connect to the theory of the 10 basic life conditions and we won't dwell in Buddhahood long if we aren't making the causes to stay there. So, it's not a bad experiment but I always noticed that it was a lot easier to see and feel my life condition raising, than it was to see it dropping. That would also be in line with the fundamental darkness getting stronger the more we are apart from the daimoku.

Best wishes to you regardless . . .

@ tsukimoto,

that is great that things are going well for you, and this will be my last "chanting works" post, cause I think I have made my thoughts clear. I would say that the thing that strikes me the most is that , the real corruption of the SGI is not that they promise that you will get "things" if you chant, it is that it takes the focus off of the real purpose of Buddhism: enlightenment. Truth be told yes, I do believe you can receive protection from chanting and benefits but that is the tip of the iceberg, the real purpose of my practice was that I was seeking a higher spiritual understanding of life and the universe and my place in it. We all have our own path to take and I am sure you will/have found yours, however please make sure you keep that laminated picture of Mr. Ikeda around your neck just in case. LOL :)

@tsukimoto, @quietone

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tsukimoto, After I left, I was told that the reason that things were going well for me was that I had built up fortune from my years of practice and "good causes". That's why everything was going well. But I was warned that my fortune would run out!!

In contrast, perhaps Tsukimoto will eventually find enlightenment and that was the cause for her good fortune? Maybe she will convert to another religion and make the "truly correct" cause and that action is having a "halo effect". Maybe someday she will give money to a homeless person and that will expiate all of her sin and be the cause for her current good fortune. Maybe her good fortune is a trick from Mara (the deceiver) and she is being further led astray? Maybe....

My point being that when you disallow any restrictions on your thinking, suddenly everything means everything. The renditions of cult thinking may be very helpful to reinforce the "we are the chosen" thinking within the cult, but it can be contradicted by life's ups and downs. Inside the cult everything reinforces everything else, like a spiderweb of interlocked ideas. Sadly, this interconnectedness excludes individual skepticism triggered by the same "actual proof" which is so heavily touted because the individual "doesn't want to make a bad cause". And like the earlier posts on senior leader's misfortunes, one could just as easily argue the contrary. A set of misfortunes befalls a "chanting" member and using the same set of rules you could paint a grim picture of the inescapability of karma and the ever presence of one's own dark nature. What to do, what to do? The cult says "fall in line" and do the "right" thing, i.e. what the cult specifies. Trust Ikea, don't question, just chant and donate. See the trap?

For me, recognizing the modality of cult thinking is important because once you see it for what it is, then you can take steps to protect yourself from its influence. Anyone immersed in SGI can look back and see critical points in which the cult thinking was used to manipulate them, for better or for worse. In the end we all take full responsibility for our actions and views, so it makes sense that we should know where those "motivating views" come from and what their purpose is - both positive and negative.

Lastly, Buddhism teaches that "right thought" is where everything begins. If you adopt the cult's dogma believing that it represents "right thought" you could easily get led astray. Every thought that crosses your mind should get some scrutiny as to its pedigree, there is no easy way around this. Adopting cookie-cutter group-think opinions may seem to make this process "easy and convenient" but I'd advise a lot of caution taking such things on whole cloth since they include a lot of embedded assumptions (such as Ikea=Buddha for one).

Wakatta



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2010 06:18PM by wakatta1.

Morgaine: "We all have our own path to take and I am sure you will/have found yours, however please make sure you keep that laminated picture of Mr. Ikeda around your neck just in case."

Yeah, life's been so much better since I took off that picture of Mr. Williams and replaced it with Sensei! :-)

Backnforth: "But I personally, don't expect that you will continue to feel okay indefinitely, because I really connect to the theory of the 10 basic life conditions and we won't dwell in Buddhahood long if we aren't making the causes to stay there."

Things go wrong in life whether you chant or not. I'm human, so my life is going to have its ups and downs whether I practice or not. I can't expect to be happy if I don't make the right causes? How is your statement different than "You will go to hell if you don't a) Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, b) acknowledge that Islam is the one true faith, or c) follow the doctrines of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints? Religions always threaten you with some kind of looming disaster if you don't follow that religion's teachings....some kind of horrible catastrophe that you could have avoided if you'd just done what your priest, minister, guru, iman, or leader told you to.

Wakatta: "In contrast, perhaps Tsukimoto will eventually find enlightenment and that was the cause for her good fortune? Maybe she will convert to another religion and make the "truly correct" cause and that action is having a "halo effect". Maybe someday she will give money to a homeless person and that will expiate all of her sin and be the cause for her current good fortune. Maybe her good fortune is a trick from Mara (the deceiver) and she is being further led astray? Maybe....

My point being that when you disallow any restrictions on your thinking, suddenly everything means everything. The renditions of cult thinking may be very helpful to reinforce the "we are the chosen" thinking within the cult, but it can be contradicted by life's ups and downs. Inside the cult everything reinforces everything else, like a spiderweb of interlocked ideas. Sadly, this interconnectedness excludes individual skepticism triggered by the same "actual proof" which is so heavily touted because the individual "doesn't want to make a bad cause".

For me, recognizing the modality of cult thinking is important because once you see it for what it is, then you can take steps to protect yourself from its influence. Anyone immersed in SGI can look back and see critical points in which the cult thinking was used to manipulate them, for better or for worse."

Wakatta, thanks. This is a great explanation of how our thinking got manipulated. While SGI touts "actual proof," they also dismiss it when it doesn't fit the ideas that they want to push. You're practicing and your life is going well? It's a benefit of your practice, and you need to keep chanting and working for SGI to keep it up. Not practicing and your life is going well? Pretty soon, your life is going to go to hell, and you need to chant and work for SGI to prevent that. You're practicing and your life isn't going well? Then do more for SGI and chant more to make it improve? You're not practicing and your life isn't going well? What did you expect? You better start doing more for SGI, and chanting more, or things will never get better. Question this, or point out situations that disprove it -- and you're told that you're negative and making a bad cause. SGI is always right. You are always wrong, and if you question SGI, you should be afraid, very afraid.

@Wakatta1, I hated you for saying, "when you disallow any restrictions on your thinking, suddenly everything means everything. For me, recognizing the modality of cult thinking is important because once you see it for what it is, then you can take steps to protect yourself from its influence...Lastly, Buddhism teaches that "right thought" is where everything begins. If you adopt the cult's dogma believing that it represents "right thought" you could easily get led astray. Every thought that crosses your mind should get some scrutiny as to its pedigree, there is no easy way around this. Adopting cookie-cutter group-think opinions may seem to make this process "easy and convenient" but I'd advise a lot of caution taking such things on whole cloth since they include a lot of embedded assumptions (such as Ikea=Buddha for one)." I hated you for possibly being right. Too often I want to take the easy way out of many things including doing the necessary thinking or research to back up my opinions and beliefs. I agree with you that facile "group-think" explanations for unknowable things do make cult beliefs and practices possible. Consequently, I tend to resist explaining the events or circumstances of my life in the reward/punishment/karmatic cause-effect modality because I have watched this fall apart in my life and others. However, throughout my life my default has appeared to be the reward/punishment mentality. Since leaving SGI that seems to be dissipating. I am too aware of the irony in hoping that will be a good thing in the long run. Like some on this forum I have found meaning in everything at times only to have it challenged or contradicted. So if there are restrictions on my thinking some are consciously imposed. @cyclops, you do AA a disservice comparing SGI to it. AA does not keep focusing on its founder. In fact, he barely gets mentioned and there are no images of him or expectations that any recovering alcoholic accept him as their mentor. Members are encouraged to get a sponsor who guides their recovery. I mention all of this not because I believe you were taking a shot at AA, but because I think SGI could benefit from emulating some of AA's methods.

Tskimoto - in answer to your question, I have to answer with a question - is there any faith in you about the life condition of Buddhahood or not? Did you notice a higher life condition while you practiced or not? It's not about something outside of yourself such as 'accepting a personal savior' or 'properly connecting to the the mentor'. None of that is Buddhist. Nichiren taught about the way to create happiness from within. You can say you have happiness based on good financial circumstance, good relationships, exciting new directions at work, or whatever, but the real test is when it all falls apart, can you access the inner strength and happiness? With a dominant presence of our Buddhahood which comes from chanting, I believe we do so quite well. but ya know, I'm not backnforth for no reason. I can see a lot of sides to things too. I just get so much positive powerful feeling from my daimoku; I feel so fortunate. And I have lots of ups and downs. Without daimoku, we all get glimpses of our Buddha nature too . . . . . . are glimpses enough?

Hi Everyone,

I just thought I'd step in here and introduce myself. I was active in SGI from 1998 to 2004. I was in YWD, I was a byakuren and I'm still tempted to stand outside of my work and greet people whenever I wear a lavender polo shirt. (:

I've been reading all of the posts here and found it very theraputic. I was lucky in that I was able to leave the SGI fairly easily. No one in my family was a member and only a few friends. I threw myself into grad school and tweaked my work schedule so that I was always "too busy" for activities. In the years since, I've pretended like the SGI never happened. But recently a chapter leader I used to know called my sister's house trying to find me and it freaked me out a little. And opened the flood gates of SGI memories. I was looking at some "Rock The Era" videos on youtube and it made me feel naseous. I remember being an "enthusiastic" Youth Division member, pretending to be happy. I was involved in the Victory Over Violence activities a decade ago.

I don't know that I'll be posting much, but I'm definitely lurking. I'm so glad I found you all. Sometimes it's just too hard to explain SGI to people who've never had that experience. You're all helping me more than you know - thank you.

For Sure - POWER is the key – throughout time there has always been a mindset to control others – religion is one of the highest forms - Follow me so that you can be saved – protected - enlighten – and so on – SO it’s not too surprising that SGI and IKEDA has evolved into this juggernaut – unfortunately they are taking a whole generation with them who will know nothing about Buddhism only that IKEDA is the MENTOR of the ages and has the wisdom of a Buddha – just try to talk to some of the IKEDABOTS out there and everything begins and end with IKEDA - where is the individual enlightenment that one is trying to attain – the elevation of one’s life condition – and the mitigation of one’s karma – All vanished just to focus on a egotistical MASTER to us all in SGI - IKEDA King of the GAKKAI….. Both Shakyamuni – Nichiren – gave us warnings about such a practice of personalities – and here we find ourselves in the thick of it : ) This reminds me of the old Chinese curse - may you live in interesting times – FOR SURE THAT WE ALL ARE : 0

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backnforth
Tskimoto - in answer to your question, I have to answer with a question - is there any faith in you about the life condition of Buddhahood or not? Did you notice a higher life condition while you practiced or not? It's not about something outside of yourself such as 'accepting a personal savior' or 'properly connecting to the the mentor'. None of that is Buddhist. Nichiren taught about the way to create happiness from within. You can say you have happiness based on good financial circumstance, good relationships, exciting new directions at work, or whatever, but the real test is when it all falls apart, can you access the inner strength and happiness? With a dominant presence of our Buddhahood which comes from chanting, I believe we do so quite well. but ya know, I'm not backnforth for no reason. I can see a lot of sides to things too. I just get so much positive powerful feeling from my daimoku; I feel so fortunate. And I have lots of ups and downs. Without daimoku, we all get glimpses of our Buddha nature too . . . . . . are glimpses enough?

Hmmmm....SGI catch phrases and buzz words, questioning someone's decision to stop chanting... if I didn't know better, I'd say this post is "shakubuku" (proselytizing).