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SecretSquirrel
...I came to this site to read others experience and maybe get some support in this separation. I don't necessarily believe SGI is a cult per se, merely an organization that doesn't meet my needs anymore and has a lot of problems, including multiple divergent and unreconciled personalities. With that said, just letting you all know that I won't continue on this board because I see some things in the messages here which are truly negative and even disturbing. 1. There are many messages which interpret SGI issues and actions with pure conjecture without any basis in reality - to me there is more than enough factual issues with the SGI and this is exactly what I sometimes experienced in the SGI, jumping to conslusions about members and their situations. 2. There are some with agendas of proselitizing and maybe other hidden agendas - thank you , but there are many other sites for information on alternatives and I am tired of manipulation. 3. Finally, most disturbing to me is the recent discussion of misfortune of SGI members citing names and with editorial description - this is the exact same behavior people have decried here and I find it offensive.

There are several posters here that I would have liked to communicate more but with the newer overall tone, I believe its time to move on and move forward in my independence in a postive way.

Secret Squirrel, I'm sad you chose to leave, rather than bringing own your own Buddhist courage and insight to this forum, where a differing point of view is valued, even if not shared. I am sure that I, for one, might have benefitted from your thoughts. Besides, it would have been cool to participate in a forum where someone with the handle "Secret Squirrel" hangs out. Ah well...life is, after all, suffering.

While we're sharing things that get our knickers in a twist, my personal peeve is the proselytizing and chastising of other Nichiren Buddhists for their beliefs that I occasionally see here and elsewhere. I could have stayed in SGI if I wanted that. I do try to just skip over such posts as @doubtful suggested, but sometimes I have to read so far into them to find out that I want to skip them, that it seems silly not to go to the end.

One of the most unfortunate things about SGI is the tendency of members to drag people into the practice with promises of "protection." The flip side of this "protection racket" is the intimation that if you leave, horrible things will happen to you, or worse, to your loved ones…and it will be all your fault because you left SGI. That's disgusting…and because I know from personal experience that such ridiculous statements are still being made by some SGI leaders, posting leaders' misfortunes seems like the only effective way to combat this kind of creepy, superstitious faux Buddhism. People in SGI are just as susceptible to misfortune as anyone else, until someone does enough credible studies to prove otherwise.

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BeingAdagio

One of the most unfortunate things about SGI is the tendency of members to drag people into the practice with promises of "protection." The flip side of this "protection racket" is the intimation that if you leave, horrible things will happen to you, or worse, to your loved ones…and it will be all your fault because you left SGI. That's disgusting…and because I know from personal experience that such ridiculous statements are still being made by some SGI leaders, posting leaders' misfortunes seems like the only effective way to combat this kind of creepy, superstitious faux Buddhism. People in SGI are just as susceptible to misfortune as anyone else, until someone does enough credible studies to prove otherwise.

The promises of SGI actually increase fear of a catastrophe, instead of increasing peace of mind. Leaders explain that bad things happen to members because of their ""karma", even though they are supposed to be protected. The member becomes scared that his karma will also cause an accident. If he doesn't chant enough, do enough activities, or give enough to SGI his karma won't be overcome. So he just gets more and more sucked in.

Well I am not sure myself if it was okay to mention the people's names, but they were official high ranking leaders I guess, so their tragic deaths must have been known already.

I remember that a few years back (and, no, I will not mention the name) a quite high leader here got tragically killed in a car accident. As I recall he came back from an activity late at night. People were quick to spread the news that he did not stand a chance as it was not his fault.
What this incident just brings to my mind though is the high level of stress some members and especially leaders some times bring on to themselves by sometimes attending meetings up to seven times a week (sometimes more than one meeting per day)– while at the same time keeping a day job. I have absolutely no idea if the poor guy was exhausted or not, but so many times I met people who were absolutely worn out by attending all those meetings, keeping up with the demands of their respective jobs and sometimes having even a family. At the time I did not find this very encouraging at all but down to earth stupid. Yet again this sort of behaviour was seen as an example on how to promote Kosen-Rufu, the more worn out one would get it would be obvious just how much they are doing to “support” their fellow members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2010 11:42PM by Rothaus.

Yes for sure lots of stress as a leader I remember well a few dayz before a meeting we would be crunching the numbers – guestimating on how many members and guest would be coming, last minute changes and who is doing what @ the meeting. The power play for guest speakers. It would get so bad @ times my kids would just ask us to quit! AH but you don’t just get up and quit the SGI – so it’s sort of like the mafia you’re in until they say different. And who can forget the quotas for new members and Gohonzon. And all of the campaigns – IKEDA rallies – FNCC arm twisting – Sr. leaders telling members that they should go because it will enhance their practice, because FNCC needs bodies in the seat to justify themselves! And so much more - ; ( Especially difficult if you are not with this Ikedanization that is going on. It’s even harder to take. DUDE I am stressing out just thinking about all of this stuff....

Its very important to mention the specific tragic deaths of senior SGI members, as SGI preaches if you are a devoted SGI chanter and member who donates money to SGI, you will avoid those things happening to you.
Also, SGI uses scare tactics to try to frighten people, that if they leave SGI, something terrible will happen to them.

Its like if you knew the names of a bunch of senior Christian Science practioners, who all died from cancer. Its important to publish those facts, as it shows that in fact Christian Science "healing" doesn't work.

SGI becomes very upset when these facts are exposed, that their own senior members are all subject to the HUMAN CONDITION, as it shows that in fact the SGI claims are a sham.
There is no shame in dying a tragic death that we are all subject to as part of the human condition.

But there is great shame, in trying to to DECEIVE your members, like SGI does, that if they give SGI lots of money and chant all the time, that the are above the human condition.
That fraud being perpetrated by SGI must be exposed using direct facts.

Rothaus, Cyclops - I agree wholeheartedly and was truly getting stressed more and more by reading your accurate accounting of the demanding schedule of the typical SGI leader. I've been there; although mostly as a youth division. Funny I never questioned why I was doing those things. In the beginning I was very attracted to the dance group. We did performances - man what a high that was!! and the unity was there (most of the time); it was truly extraordinary what some amatuers could pull together with their unity. I really do believe in unity accomplishing more than disunity. But, thank goodness for middle age. I am more settled now, with children and many life demands and carrying on like those leaders do is such a disservice to other family members, spouses, children, aging parents, etc. I resigned my position a few years back (it took about a year to accomplish that), and paid more attention to my life. What a huge relief. OH I know, I should hear the little voice that says "it's supposed to be a relief at first but then, but then, just wait . . . hee hee hee . . . bad things will begin to happen."

Not true. Life continues to happen and I continue to chant/pray twice a day to improve my self, my relationships and to get closer to my goals. In fact, I recommend all current SGI members to take a few steps back, and really look at what is going on in the SGI. When you started your practice, did you have any idea it would turn into such a time hog? It was supposed to be daily chanting, occasional meetings to discuss and study Buddhism right? Maybe introduce a friend from time to time, if they seem interested. That is all we have to do, really.

Thank you to all participating in this forum; it is something I look forward to each night for a few minutes.

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doubtful
@SecretSquirrel, You wrote, "just letting you all know that I won't continue on this board because I see some things in the messages here which are truly negative and even disturbing. ........... 3. Finally, most disturbing to me is the recent discussion of misfortune of SGI members citing names and with editorial description - this is the exact same behavior people have decried here and I find it offensive."

........... Because we were passionate about our practice and membership some of us are passionate about our departure or recovery from the experience. You think it was tasteless for us to post the names of leaders who met with tragedy, but you should remember that many members have been repeatedly told that they would meet misfortune for leaving the organization or the practice. This was so real that it kept many from leaving much sooner. Consequently, it is necessary to include names of leaders because otherwise it would sound like hearsay, like something unsubstantiated.

I posted on the misfortunes of devout SGI members. Why? It was not out of spite or dislike for any of the individuals involved. I am sorry that they had to suffer serious illness, injury, or the loss of loved ones. However, this is relevant, necessary information.

First, I did not reveal any secrets; these events have been public knowledge for a long time, and have been published elsewhere on the web. Some aspects of these events have even been discussed in SGI publications, though with a different twist.

More importantly, SGI has told members for years -- in meetings, in guidance, and in its publications -- that this practice protects you and helps you solve problems and achieve goals. Members with unresolved family, health, financial, or other problems are often guilt tripped and told that the problem is their lack of faith, not supporting SGI enough, or not chanting enough. Many members have posted on this thread about having such experiences. They've suffered from mental illness in the family, a miscarriage, or sickness -- and instead of being compassionate, leaders criticize them for not getting more guidance, or not chanting more! In eighteen years of practice, I also witnessed many times, leaders telling members that if they left SGI, they would experience terrible catastrophes and misfortunes.

I practiced eighteen years, despite much discomfort with some of the organization's practices, and many red flags. I tried so hard to "be the change you wish to see," but I found that SGI was never going to change, no matter what members like me did or said. Other people have posted similar experiences on this thread. We did care about SGI. We wanted to make SGI a better organization. SGI did not want members like us. We were left with no choice but to leave.

It was only after leaving that I began to see how much my thinking had been manipulated by SGI. I did fear that terrible things would happen to me or to my family because I left, and began to criticize SGI. And again, I found that I wasn't the only ex-SGI member with these fears.

If you're going to say things that make someone anxious -- it's reasonable to ask, "Where is your evidence?" THAT was my purpose for posting the information that I did -- to examine the evidence. For me, there simply isn't evidence that following SGI's party line makes you exempt from serious illness, misfortune, or loss of loved ones. I also don't find evidence that leaving or criticizing SGI causes bad luck.

Again, I did not post to gloat about the misfortunes of those SGI members. I would never wish this level of pain and suffering on anyone. My hope is that SGI members , or ex-SGI members can read it and think. SGI's teachings about how supporting SGI protects you and leaving SGI causes misfortune affected my life in a very negative way. I stayed in SGI longer than I wanted to, for the wrong reasons, and I felt terrible, unneccessary anxiety and fear when I left.

I hope, that if someone reading this thread feels the way I felt -- reading the posts might encourage them to examine their own superstitious thinking. I want people to know that they don't have to stay in SGI because of fear. If they choose to stay because they love it, fine. But staying in an organization that you dislike, just because you are afraid that something awful will happen if you leave -- that's just no good.

The truth is, good and bad things happen to everyone, no matter what their religion. Staying in SGI and chanting a lot will not protect you from misfortune, and leaving SGI will not automatically bring misfortune down upon your head. I just don't want people to be intimidated when they don't have to be. And as Doubtful said, if there were no names, people might think that I made all this up.

Secret Squirrel, I am sorry that you are leaving this thread, but glad that you wrote what you did. It gave me an opportunity to clarify my own thinking on this issue, both to myself and others.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2010 09:23PM by tsukimoto.

For sure – I was practicing when the SGI was ramping –up and the slogan was SGI is here to support your practice and to help out members. A duality – NSA / SGI – well it took a few decades but now the servant to all – is now the MASTER to all. From helping out the members to fatting up the SGI coffers just how many BILLIONS does it take to become a Buddha?
I am very sadden in the way this has played out – I am sure you know what I mean – members taking monies that they need to pay rent – bills – utilities and they give it to the coffers of SGI. If that wasn’t evil enough they espouse the myth that IKEDA is the second coming and equating him with the likes of - Gandhi, King and Shakyamuni – Nichiren! WHAT chutzpah ; ( The YD is being condition like the brown shirts – and black shirts of the 1930 –
HAIL TO IKEDA THE ALL KNOWING MENTOR TO US ALL....................................

@tsukimoto, you wrote to SecretSquirrel, "It was only after leaving that I began to see how much my thinking had been manipulated by SGI. I did fear that terrible things would happen to me or to my family because I left, and began to criticize SGI. And again, I found that I wasn't the only ex-SGI member with these fears. If you're going to say things that make someone anxious -- it's reasonable to ask, "Where is your evidence?" THAT was my purpose for posting the information that I did -- to examine the evidence. For me, there simply isn't evidence that following SGI's party line makes you exempt from serious illness, misfortune, or loss of loved ones. I also don't find evidence that leaving or criticizing SGI causes bad luck. Again, I did not post to gloat about the misfortunes of those SGI members. I would never wish this level of pain and suffering on anyone. My hope is that SGI members , or ex-SGI members can read it and think."

You did not sound like you were happy about the misfortunes that have occurred to die-hard SGI members. I hope that SS reads all of our comments and returns. I suspect that many of us who practiced with SGI wanted guarantees of some sort. Our practice+ Gakkai activities were supposed to insure us against those unpleasant, unfortunate things life throws at us. I think that mentality worked on us to an extent because often our lives would get into a positive rhythm; we would feel positive and energized; and our environment often appeared to be responding favorably. I suspect others on this forum also were grateful for catching trains/buses or hitting a series of green lights when late for work or some important event; for receiving raises when others did not; for receiving money just when you needed it most; even for getting a treasured item for free or at a major discount etc. I welcome you all to add to the list. When these things would happen we would think our practice did it. Well, I cannot prove it did not, but the flipside is that absence of SGI for us then meant absence of good luck. However, those of us who left discovered that the good luck actually continues WITHOUT the Gakkai activities. I write this because I continue to trust the practice, but now I am suspicious of anyone who expects or demands that I do a bunch of stuff to experience "benefit." The way SGI has been going suggests that it is trying to sell guarantees of success and insurance against misfortune. Ah, if only it were that easy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 08:01AM by doubtful.

What is described above is basically the Confirmation Bias, which happens to everyone.

[www.skepdic.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]

There are also some interesting mathematics around probabilites and coincidences that show that conicidences have to happen, based on the probabilites, and laws of chance.

Sects like SGI take advantage of these types of things about life, and use them to distort the perceptions of their followers. Some sects are self-deluded, but the smarter ones know they are manipulating those below.
Frankly, one gets the real sense that Ikeda knows its a sham for the SGI "rabble" out there. One could bet Ikeda has not "SGI chanted" in years. He would not believe in the superstitious stuff, the General doesn't believe the same illusions as the foot soldiers.
Of course one can't know what he really believes, but must make an educated guess from his behavior.


What a coincidence! by Geoffrey Grimmett [pass.maths.org.uk]
"It follows "by the laws of chance" that coincidences will definitely occur sooner or later. Indeed, the world would be more surprising if coincidences never occurred."