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doubtful
@ Finally, for what it's worth I don't think The Void meant any harm, although his wording was a bit harsh. Sometimes we get carried away on this forum. I think it may be part of the recovery process. Apparently, SGI moles (spies) have been on this forum often. Ok, that's just my two cents.

Thanks Doubtful, maybe i was harsh but sometimes you feel that way, but I have heard the same kind of story at many local, regional and national Soka meetings, so reading it on hear certainly flashed up red on my warning signs.
It's good that you can appreciate how annoyed and ripped off we all feel, when you see that Soka is a cult of personality, where you cannot get away with disagreeing over matters such as the ridiculous M/D issues, or the fact the you never study the Lotus Sutra because according to Soka we are all too stupid and can't understand any of it, unless Ikeda explains it too us like little children. Sorry Morgaine but hope you understand.

@Doubtful, yes, I think we are kindred spirits, I am sure there are many more on the forum as well.

@ The Void,

No worries, I can completely understand the need to be careful, I have experienced the "secret police" aspect of the Gakkai and it ain't pretty.

@ BeingAdagio, welcome to the forum.

Peace

Anyone here who has ever smoked can probably relate to this.

Many years ago I quit. It took some time to work up to it, but when I finally did it was totally cold turkey. I basically banished everything from my life to do with cigarettes. It was effective, but as time wore on I discovered that the old habit, although under control, was always there as an invisible influence. After a goodly period of time it eventually disappeared, and many of the opinions that were wrapped around the habit also slowly disappeared as well but it was my vigilance to their effects that has prevented me from smoking until today.

Also, throughout that period I discovered I could get "relief" by putting a pen in my mouth, or deep breathing, somewhat mimicing the smoking process without the cigarettes. It eventually occurred to me that if I was ever going to fully break away from that influence I had to find alternative things to do than "simulate" the smoking habit.

Nowadays, people buy high-tech water-vapor cigarettes to "pretend" they are smoking and to continue to get the gratification, perhaps not recognizing that by retaining an image of the habit, they leave the door open to its reappearance.

Here is my point. When I broke away from SGI I used the same concept. I was done with the organization, and I was careful to ensure that the vestigial pieces of the "belief" habit were contained and controlled. I remain open to faith-oriented considerations, but I have completely discounted the SGI dogma (and the messenger as well). To my mind, practicing "similar but different" SGI is still SGI, and for the most part, I do not wish to be influenced by that mind-set in any actionable way. Although I respect Nichiren's teaching I believe that SGI has so polluted the lake that it can only be called a swamp.

I continue to read and post here simply because I think I have a few tidbits of insight that might help others in dealing with the "SGI Think" monster.

Wakatta

@doubtful and @Morgaine, thank you for the welcome :)

Yes, the fear and superstition have gradually diminished for me. I hadn't realized how much my participation was based on fear until I walked away from SGI, and had to confront all those warnings and dark tales I had internalized about what happens to people who leave. Instilling fear, and then providing the magic antidote, is an old, and still very lucrative method.

No matter how old we get, humans want to believe in some kind of "magic" -- a force we can harness to bend the natural world to our will…mend our bodies and give us what we want. We fail to see that the only real "magic," if such exists, is the very uncontrollability of the natural world we seek to overcome. Wasn't that unfulfilled childhood wish, made once again believable by the fantastic tales of members, what attracted so many of us to SGI in the first place? It hooked me, in spite of all my doubts and misgivings.

But whether one leaves SGI or not, keeps practicing or not, I think most people are eventually forced to consider the possibility that "creating value" isn't the same as getting "what I want," when we are faced with the reality that suffering and loss are as inevitable as joy and gain, no matter how much we chant or how much zaimu we pay.

To me, Buddhism (all flavors) is really about the incredibly hard work of finding the boundless, indefinable joy that is the fundamental truth of existence itself…eternally the same though both increase and decrease. That work can't fail to be visibly and powerfully reflected in our lives -- but it may not be in the form of getting what we demand in our prayers. In many different ways, Shakyamuni told us to "be a lamp unto ourselves." I guess heaping adoration and money on a leader is the way some people light their personal lamps. It just doesn't light mine anymore (and probably never did).

BeingAdagio

@Wakatta1, in reference to quitting smoking you wrote, "I discovered I could get "relief" by putting a pen in my mouth, or deep breathing, somewhat mimicking the smoking process without the cigarettes. It eventually occurred to me that if I was ever going to fully break away from that influence I had to find alternative things to do than "simulate" the smoking habit. Nowadays, people buy high-tech water-vapor cigarettes to "pretend" they are smoking and to continue to get the gratification, perhaps not recognizing that by retaining an image of the habit, they leave the door open to its reappearance." That's a great analogy to make about quitting SGI. I agree with you that practicing "similar but different" SGI is still SGI, and for the most part, I do not wish to be influenced by that mind-set in any actionable way." This is why I cannot return and just take what I want and leave the rest as some of my acquaintances have suggested. There's a whole mentality about many things that I want to get away from. For me it's a dangerous mentality that encourages me to think I can control people, places, and things. I heard this story repeatedly over the years by a senior leader. He was Ikeda's driver on a few occasions and he noticed that wherever Ikeda appeared the weather improved significantly. On other occasions members were encouraged to chant for good weather before a major event, including RTE. Okay, maybe they meant no harm but it's foolish to delude ourselves that our prayers affect the weather. How would this same gentleman explain the times Ikeda encountered bad weather or bad circumstances? SGI presents members with repetitive(and uninteresting) pubs; Gandhi, King, Ikeda exhibit; and various activities and responsibilities disguised as opportunities to change your karma when those members' lives don't appear to change significantly. The list goes on. I cannot imagine that it would be very pleasant to continue attending SGI activities and then go about filtering out more than 50% of the messages communicated by the leaders, pubs, and members.

Question – I have had people in the know give me a couple of places where SGI banks the monies that they take in here in the US! I am sure that SGI is keeping as much of the monies as possible under the radar to shelter their cash. SO does anyone know where the treasure chest is located? I hear tell it’s in California! After all it’s all about the money – so trying to follow the money is a hard task indeed $$$$$$$$

@BeingAdagio You wrote, "No matter how old we get, humans want to believe in some kind of "magic" -- a force we can harness to bend the natural world to our will…mend our bodies and give us what we want. We fail to see that the only real "magic," if such exists, is the very uncontrollability of the natural world we seek to overcome. Wasn't that unfulfilled childhood wish, made once again believable by the fantastic tales of members, what attracted so many of us to SGI in the first place? It hooked me, in spite of all my doubts and misgivings." Thank you, thank you, thank you. Is that insight original or are you quoting someone/something? It's brilliant!!!! You have put some of my thoughts and feelings into actual words without even knowing me. This is why I love this forum. People sometimes use Buddhism, Christianity, Santeria, or whatever to accomplish just what you said: to diminish their feeling of powerlessness. Unfortunately there are unprincipled people and organizations ready to take advantage of this common human experience. You also wrote, "But whether one leaves SGI or not, keeps practicing or not, I think most people are eventually forced to consider the possibility that "creating value" isn't the same as getting "what I want," when we are faced with the reality that suffering and loss are as inevitable as joy and gain, no matter how much we chant or how much zaimu we pay." Thanks again! SGI makes this claim that by getting what you want (by using the practice) you will encourage others to join and then you and other members will become happy and this will lead to a peaceful society based on Buddhist principles. This idea may sound appealing to some; it did to me once. But it is not true! People in and out of SGI don't become happy because they get what they want nor does getting what you want cause peace in your life or in the world. At least that's how I see it. Again I agree with you when you say, "To me, Buddhism (all flavors) is really about the incredibly hard work of finding the boundless, indefinable joy that is the fundamental truth of existence itself…eternally the same though both increase and decrease. That work can't fail to be visibly and powerfully reflected in our lives -- but it may not be in the form of getting what we demand in our prayers. In many different ways, Shakyamuni told us to "be a lamp unto ourselves." I guess heaping adoration and money on a leader is the way some people light their personal lamps. It just doesn't light mine anymore (and probably never did)." I am so glad you have joined this forum. I look forward to future postings. Please share some of the crazy things you may have witnessed or experienced as an SGI member.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2010 06:33AM by doubtful.

The Void said in part:

"It's good that you can appreciate how annoyed and ripped off we all feel, when you see that Soka is a cult of personality, where you cannot get away with disagreeing over matters such as the ridiculous M/D issues, or the fact the you never study the Lotus Sutra because according to Soka we are all too stupid and can't understand any of it, unless Ikeda explains it too us like little children. "


I'm sorry if I don't buy this at all. I don't think you have any true experience with the SGI or you wouldn't be talking about Soka, you would say SGI and you wouldn't say 'study the lotus sutra' because we study Nichiren's writings and you wouldn't say Ikeda explains it too us, because we don't have any direct contact with him - he is in Japan and elderly at this point anyway. And they don't tell us we are too stupid and can't understand, although that is true for many - it is quite complex, but that is beside the point; they don't say things like that. So who are you and why are pretending to have experience with the SGI?

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Chanter16
The Void said in part:

"It's good that you can appreciate how annoyed and ripped off we all feel, when you see that Soka is a cult of personality, where you cannot get away with disagreeing over matters such as the ridiculous M/D issues, or the fact the you never study the Lotus Sutra because according to Soka we are all too stupid and can't understand any of it, unless Ikeda explains it too us like little children. "


I'm sorry if I don't buy this at all. I don't think you have any true experience with the SGI or you wouldn't be talking about Soka, you would say SGI and you wouldn't say 'study the lotus sutra' because we study Nichiren's writings and you wouldn't say Ikeda explains it too us, because we don't have any direct contact with him - he is in Japan and elderly at this point anyway. And they don't tell us we are too stupid and can't understand, although that is true for many - it is quite complex, but that is beside the point; they don't say things like that. So who are you and why are pretending to have experience with the SGI?

Huh? Wow. Woah. Sounds like another private message option. Chanter 16, haven't you noticed the many different names people on this forum have used instead of SGI? Haven't you realized that since the invention of print, explanations (from Ikea or others) can reach people in the form of the written word (or videos)? I believe the Void was not misguided in pointing out what you agree with in your response about SGI members not studying the Lotus Sutra. I was never much of a studier in all the years I put in, but I think that 'gongyo' in the little book mumbled through twice a day and never adequately expressed to guests at discussion meetings has something to do with the LS.

I find views about this group from those with little or no experience with SGI helpful, even if they aren't fully 'experienced'. Recently, a friend of mine found one of my World Tribune newspapers from 2004 and was creeped out by the articles. The observation being: They didn't seem to be saying anything at all and at some point everything went back to referring to the leader. This Mentor/ Disciple emphasis isn't new.
Chanter 16, I apologize for being too much of a wise guy in response. Peace. I hope I didn't misunderstand your points.
P.S. I borrowed someone's misspelling of the humble leader's leaders name in my first paragraph.

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Chanter16
The Void said in part:

"It's good that you can appreciate how annoyed and ripped off we all feel, when you see that Soka is a cult of personality, where you cannot get away with disagreeing over matters such as the ridiculous M/D issues, or the fact the you never study the Lotus Sutra because according to Soka we are all too stupid and can't understand any of it, unless Ikeda explains it too us like little children. "


I'm sorry if I don't buy this at all. I don't think you have any true experience with the SGI or you wouldn't be talking about Soka, you would say SGI and you wouldn't say 'study the lotus sutra' because we study Nichiren's writings and you wouldn't say Ikeda explains it too us, because we don't have any direct contact with him - he is in Japan and elderly at this point anyway. And they don't tell us we are too stupid and can't understand, although that is true for many - it is quite complex, but that is beside the point; they don't say things like that. So who are you and why are pretending to have experience with the SGI?

I have to agree with TheVoid. My experience has always been you cannot disagree with the SGI status quo - especially on matters like M/D. I don't think TheVoid meant that people have direct contact with Ikeda. Rather, members are encouraged to sink their hard earned money on the gazillion books Ikeda has written (of course its been up for debate on this forum if he even writes these at all) and other SGI publications to understand Nicherin's writings. And yeah, I've been told on many occasions that reading Nicherin's writings directly would be very difficult so just stick with the organization's interpretations.

I believe you should think before you accuse someone of being a troll.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2010 08:19PM by ScoobyDooby.