@doubtful, about the coke habit/ Daimoku comparison, I think it is a dramatic example I have picked up from the movies and real horror stories I have heard about that drug. Many practices and arts and crafts require daily assiduous practice to allow an individual to maintain benefits in life and to allow growth and improvement in the practice/ craft as well as life. Chanting by myself or with others has been profound quite often.

I chanted 'cleansing daimoku' this morning and made a few business calls; one about an expense and one about receiving payment. They precisely cancelled each other out! How 'Myoho'. But if I had not chanted, those 2 precise standard #s would have been quoted to me anyway.
However... I can also imagine myself going back to SGI and chanting to:
1. be able to hold my ground and only do what I think is right.
2. Use activities to support the daimoku fuel I'm putting into my life while ignoring controversy, like when I fuel my car and keep my mind off of the petrol situation in the world.
3. Be vigilant about controversy and plan to leave again when SGI gives me a fresh example of how it is wrong for me.

4. Be convinced that chanting is a big part of my life and the road to success, and since the SGI is the only group 'gung ho' enough to keep me on board,(I don't think I have met a temple member), just keep chanting for reform.

Months ago, a friend who practices another form of Buddhism was wondering why I had to be so 'cut and dry' about SGI involvement. I explained that I felt I couldn't maintain my footing against their strong coersive nature. I even suggested maybe it is my problem not theirs.
Oy Veh! Finding MY way today! But a sense of lightness about it.

Rattyboy, your devoted practice helps you to see clearly; the errors the SGI is making are not your problem at all. It is hard to imagine reform within the organization. They definitely have their agenda and it may be financial (political?) in nature more than anything. Were you around in the NSA days? If so you are having a de'ja'vu like me. Gohonzons are easy to come by - just ask for one (and pay the fee of course). Meetings are nearly back to the daily levels of the 70's & 80's. People are probably ignoring their children or just taking them along where they can hear all the hype about the mentor. Just writing about it like this, makes me feel pretty disgusted. But I am like you in that my personal practice and connection with the daimoku and Gohonzon are completely positive and enrich my life. I can feel appreciation for those in the SGI that helped me learn, and some of them still do. But I had to draw the line and it feels right to 'disconnect' from the main stream of their activities and be more fully engaged in normal living! Maybe some want to criticize even doing the practice. It's freedom of religion, remember! Some people may say prayers to God before going to bed at night or before eating their meal. I chant twice a day to be the best I can be, for my family to find their happiness, help others that are suffering, recognize opportunities to grow and get closer to realizing my own dreams (and appreciating those I have already realized of course).

@rattyboy You wrote, "I can also imagine myself going back to SGI and chanting to:
1. be able to hold my ground and only do what I think is right.
2. Use activities to support the daimoku fuel I'm putting into my life while ignoring controversy, like when I fuel my car and keep my mind off of the petrol situation in the world.
3. Be vigilant about controversy and plan to leave again when SGI gives me a fresh example of how it is wrong for me.

4. Be convinced that chanting is a big part of my life and the road to success, and since the SGI is the only group 'gung ho' enough to keep me on board,(I don't think I have met a temple member), just keep chanting for reform."
Ah, if only it were these easy for me (or anyone who was a member for a long time and has left). I suppose I could change my mind, but I cannot see ever going back to SGI. As you, I, and others here have pointed out, the coercive messages about Ikeda's greatness and the magical thinking angle on chanting have made it so that critical thinkers like most of the people on this forum will not be able to tolerate activities, leaders, or publications that run contrary to reason or our own experience. Perhaps age has something to do with it as well. My experience has shown me that inflexibility/intolerance, hero worship, and group think do not make my life better from the inside out. Too much of the message given in SGI involves controlling people, outcomes, and situations. They would like us to believe that this practice "can make the impossible possible." That's not true. I wish it were true, but it's not. I have watched myself and countless others chant A LOT, study, and do activities and NOT reach our objectives (or only achieve modest results in many important areas of our lives). When the desired results arrive, it's because of those actions. When less desirable results occur it's because of our attitude, quantity of daimoku, or lack of oneness with the mentor--or better yet, our karma! Again, this is just my opinion. I can't explain how and why chanting works in my life, but it does as long as I am not loading my practice with unrealistic expectations or superstitious karmic reward/retribution mentality. That kind of thinking does not bring me peace or joy or happiness--three things I treasure. I never have been and probably won't ever be the type to sit around chanting for many hours on end on a regular basis. I am more action-oriented. I suspect that those in (or formerly) SGI who claim big results in their lives made a lot of secular causes. I have never been crazy about the idea of holding up Tina Turner, Orlando Bloom, or Duncan Sheik as proof of anything other than hard work, talent, and ambition. I am sure it is deliberate PR, the idea that practicing this Buddhism will deliver jobs, contracts, big bucks, blah-blah-blah--as it did for these celebrities. BS. Those people did not become famous or rich because of Daisaku Ikeda or this practice, nor has anyone else. My practice of Nichiren has been an inside job. I have a feeling that to most long-term practitioners that's probably the case as well, but SGI does not want to promote that. It's not glamorous enough and it has NOTHING to do with Ikeda's greatness. After all he did not invent the practice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2010 01:15PM by doubtful.

@ doubtful,

"They would like us to believe that this practice "can make the impossible possible." That's not true."


I have found this to be very true, one of my main expamples happened a few years ago :

My sister was diagnosed with a terminal disease , she had many complications and was not just considered terminal she was labeled, "hopeless" the doctors would not treat her and there was nothing left to do but chant. . Well to my surprise my sister took to the chanting like a duck to water, as this point I was very careful to keep her away from too many activities and took her to meetings only occasionally. Long story short, after a year of chanting and studying Buddhism, specifically Vice President Tsuji's guidance, my sister was completely cancer free. One thing I can clearly remember is her telling me that when she chanted she could "feel the movement" in the area in her body where the cancer was. I know this was the Gohonzon.

I do agree with you about the having to work for it part, my sister had to decide she wanted to live and I had to commit to helping her with the various aspects of fighting a terminal illness on your own. So it was not "magical, but is was , mystical, everything we needed fell into place. Thanks for letting me take up your time. Peace.


PS, I am not advocating a return to Gakkai Central just feel that sometimes, the experiences we have had in the Gakkai can make us forget the true power of the Gohonzon.

I haven't posted before, but I've been reading this thread for about three months. It's good to find a group of people with the courage to speak truthfully about their experiences with SGI, whether they are still involved or have left the org.

I quit SGI in 2008 after almost 30 years, and now practice independently. At first, I was so disgusted that even the sound of chanting was toxic for me. But over time I gradually discovered that SGI and the practice are NOT the same thing, which was my first major post-SGI revelation. Surprise -- SGI does NOT own the Lotus Sutra, Nichiren's Buddhism, or the many good things that come from the practice.

After leaving, I found that being away from SGI felt wholesome and refreshing, like I could finally breathe and think for myself again. But I also felt a painful emptiness where the practice itself had been, and decided to start chanting again. Now, with the help of some good non-SGI guides and resources, I practice on my own terms. It has been very positive for me. I think this is the first time I've really deeply enjoyed the practice, though I do miss having a sangha to chant with.

I am still internally fighting some of the superstitious fear that passes for "faith" in SGI, but ironically, I find that my renewed practice is gradually leading me away from it.

BeingAdagio

Quote
Morgaine
@ doubtful,

"They would like us to believe that this practice "can make the impossible possible." That's not true."


I have found this to be very true, one of my main expamples happened a few years ago :

My sister was diagnosed with a terminal disease , she had many complications and was not just considered terminal she was labeled, "hopeless" the doctors would not treat her and there was nothing left to do but chant. . Well to my surprise my sister took to the chanting like a duck to water, as this point I was very careful to keep her away from too many activities and took her to meetings only occasionally. Long story short, after a year of chanting and studying Buddhism, specifically Vice President Tsuji's guidance, my sister was completely cancer free. One thing I can clearly remember is her telling me that when she chanted she could "feel the movement" in the area in her body where the cancer was. I know this was the Gohonzon.

I do agree with you about the having to work for it part, my sister had to decide she wanted to live and I had to commit to helping her with the various aspects of fighting a terminal illness on your own. So it was not "magical, but is was , mystical, everything we needed fell into place. Thanks for letting me take up your time. Peace.


PS, I am not advocating a return to Gakkai Central just feel that sometimes, the experiences we have had in the Gakkai can make us forget the true power of the Gohonzon.

I don't want to demeen what you have written but what the hell, i am going to anyway. I have heard the same rubbish at many Soka meetings. 'hey everyone some i know (not me) had this incurable illness and the doctors said they were done for, but i got them to chant and the illness disappeared'.

Sorry but total rubbish, are you sure you aren't an SGI mole. coz you damn sound like it with that post.

I am sure others had heard the exact story you have written above, maybe about other diseases but the exact same sentiment!

In fact it sounds like you got that story from a Soka book.

I hope the story is true, cos if it ain't, you is one sick mother.

@Morgaine You wrote, "My sister was diagnosed with a terminal disease , she had many complications and was not just considered terminal she was labeled, "hopeless" the doctors would not treat her and there was nothing left to do but chant. . Well to my surprise my sister took to the chanting like a duck to water... Long story short, after a year of chanting and studying Buddhism, specifically Vice President Tsuji's guidance, my sister was completely cancer free. One thing I can clearly remember is her telling me that when she chanted she could "feel the movement" in the area in her body where the cancer was. I know this was the Gohonzon.
PS, I am not advocating a return to Gakkai Central just feel that sometimes, the experiences we have had in the Gakkai can make us forget the true power of the Gohonzon."
I am glad your sister recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition. I don't doubt the power of the Gohonzon to overcome our sufferings. Sickness is one of them, as posited by Shakyamuni--someone whose ideas are virtually ignored by SGI pubs, leaders, and members. Furthermore, for every case like your sister there are hundreds that chanted to overcome health, professional, and personal obstacles with little or no appreciable results. My point is that the degree of your sister's faith as well as her karma probably played a huge role in her success. Participation in Gakkai activities did not. I have attended long tosos to help some members recover from terminal illnesses, sometimes with those very members. In some cases they recovered. In some cases they did not. From a scientific perspective that's strong proof that chanting to the Gohonzon does not guarantee results. So many other things we don't know are operative so let's stop pretending that we KNOW why some encounter success, failure, early death, long lives, recording contracts, movie deals, hit records, hit musicals, pay raises, or rich partners. @The Void, your response to Morgaine's post may be a bit harsh. You wrote, "I don't want to demean what you have written but what the hell, i am going to anyway. I have heard the same rubbish at many Soka meetings. 'hey everyone some i know (not me) had this incurable illness and the doctors said they were done for, but i got them to chant and the illness disappeared'.
Sorry but total rubbish, are you sure you aren't an SGI mole. coz you damn sound like it with that post...it sounds like you got that story from a Soka book. I hope the story is true, cos if it ain't, you is one sick mother." I have heard people of other faiths claim victory over serious problems because of their faith in ---. My conclusion is that faith is what counts, but not faith in the Gakkai since they want you to align your life with Ikeda's. Nevertheless, I am sure some members sincerely believe that Gakkai participation produces all sorts of miracles. But people on this forum have helped me see that my faith in the practice is what helped me move forward at crucial moments. What I refuse to do is turn my practice into a "wish-granting jewel" because that loads it with unrealistic expectations which don't actually help me move forward.

@BeingAdagio Welcome! You wrote, "After leaving, I found that being away from SGI felt wholesome and refreshing, like I could finally breathe and think for myself again. But I also felt a painful emptiness where the practice itself had been, and decided to start chanting again. Now, with the help of some good non-SGI guides and resources, I practice on my own terms. It has been very positive for me. I think this is the first time I've really deeply enjoyed the practice, though I do miss having a sangha to chant with. I am still internally fighting some of the superstitious fear that passes for "faith" in SGI, but ironically, I find that my renewed practice is gradually leading me away from it."
I hear you. Boy, do I hear you. I was active in SGI for over 20 years and only left a few months ago. I too feel that being away has been "wholesome and refreshing." I too study other resources that have guided "practice on my own terms. It has been very positive for me" too. However, I also recognize that "superstitious fear that passes for 'faith' in SGI." I am so glad that mentality does indeed start to dissolve significantly. At first I was a bit scared, then depressed, then exhilarated, then simply present for what life throws at me. I am getting better and better at giving my practice an appropriate place in my life and development, not as an excuse or explanation for everything that happens to me and others. I too miss the "sangha to chant with," only sometimes. I contemplated contacting some former members just to ask if they want to chant, but I suspect they will believe I am just trying to dupe them back into SGI. Furthermore, there is no way I can invite them to chant without ever mentioning why I have left SGI. For now I don't want to influence any members who may return to SGI. I am on my own path. Until I feel I really need it, I will continue enjoying practicing and studying independently. Fortunately my mother practices too so I can chant with her. She wants to stick with SGI and I respect that. I am so glad we respect each other's point of view on the practice.

@The Void,


I don't want to demeen what you have written but what the hell, i am going to anyway. I have heard the same rubbish at many Soka meetings. 'hey everyone some i know (not me) had this incurable illness and the doctors said they were done for, but i got them to chant and the illness disappeared'.

Sorry but total rubbish, are you sure you aren't an SGI mole. coz you damn sound like it with that post.

I am sure others had heard the exact story you have written above, maybe about other diseases but the exact same sentiment!

In fact it sounds like you got that story from a Soka book.

I hope the story is true, cos if it ain't, you is one sick mother.[/quote]

Dear Void,

I wrote this post to share some personal things about my life which I have not done because the things are very specific and anyone monitoring this site will know who I am. But, I believe that this forum is great in terms of its ability to separate the Gakkai from Buddhism, but I sometimes feel as if it is also separating the people from Buddhism. I am standing up for Buddhism, if you take it any other way, well, that is your prerogative you can be as harsh as you like , but I would encourage you to think before writing to someone whom you have never interacted with, this is not a good first impression.

I will address your statements by each statement:

1) Am I an SGI mole? What is that? From what I have seen on this forum everyone on here that was SGI said they were, without revealing too much of who I am I have been very honest about my position. Perhaps you should go back and read some of my posts. I don't hate the SGI , if that is a prerequisite for being on this forum, then you are correct, I am on the wrong forum. I have been a Buddhist long enough that I really don't hate anything, it is a strong emotion that has no place in my life.


2) The story is completely true, perhaps you should slow down and go back and re-read what I said. I never said her disease just "disappeared", I said it was a process, a process that I and the Gohonzon were an integral part of.

3) As far as I know there is no "Soka Book" that documents these types of overcoming seriouis illness, there is however a great book by Charles Atkiins a former SGI member that does document a very similar experience, his was with conventional medicine, he used the same mantra powered visualization that I helped my sister with. Perhaps he is an SGI mole as well.

4) I think that if you had questions about my post you could have sent me a personal email to question me and find out more. I would have been happy to answer you. To tacitly malign my character and basically call me a liar is not acceptable, this is a public forum, and should be conducted with respect. I was very careful before I posted here to read some of the posts, one thing I liked about this site was the openness to hear others stories, but I was happy to see there was nothing that could be considered abusive, your post to me borders on that, so please be careful.

In ending I would just like to say that the saddest part for me about realizing that many things were off in the Gakkai was the complete loss of faith, for me in ANYTHING, I went thru a period many years ago when I just began to doubt everything. My thoughts were, if I had spent so much time doing activities and running around and it was all a lie, how could I trust anything again. I didi not know it at the time but my sisters experience saved me in many ways, it restored my faith in the GOHONZON, see I said the GOHONZON not the GAKKAI, the two things are not synonymous.

Anyhow... Doubtful, I am glad to see your reply, my sister had no faith in the Gohonzon she knew very little about it except what I told her, she chanted and it helped, and yes there are othere faiths that have had similar miracles occur you are correct. I just felt from your post a moment of kindred spirit because I remember when I first begin to doubt and the ensuing years, life without hope and faith is dismal.

@Morgaine, you wrote, "the saddest part for me about realizing that many things were off in the Gakkai was the complete loss of faith, for me in ANYTHING, I went thru a period many years ago when I just began to doubt everything. My thoughts were, if I had spent so much time doing activities and running around and it was all a lie, how could I trust anything again. I did not know it at the time but my sisters experience saved me in many ways, it restored my faith in the Gohonzon, see I said the Gohonzon not the Gakkai, the two things are not synonymous"
My screen name should tell you that we may be "kindred spirits." You will actually find many kindred spirits on this forum. I too had to learn to separate Buddhism from SGI. Fortunately this was not that difficult since I had been reading books by non-Nichiren Buddhists for years. I came to see that my years of Gakkai activities were not quite a lie since I did believe in them at the time. Furthermore, we were not doing anything illegal or unethical or harmful. You also wrote, "yes there are other faiths that have had similar miracles occur you are correct...I remember when I first began to doubt and the ensuing years, life without hope and faith is dismal." I have not abandoned the practice because my fundamental darkness, or depressive side is quite strong at times. I don't care to experiment with living without an active religious faith. My experience of "dismal" could lead me to some unwanted places as my past has shown me. Finally, for what it's worth I don't think The Void meant any harm, although his wording was a bit harsh. Sometimes we get carried away on this forum. I think it may be part of the recovery process. Apparently, SGI moles (spies) have been on this forum often. Ok, that's just my two cents.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2010 09:27AM by doubtful.