ScoobyDooby, You are right!

@ScoobyDooby

even after five years + of having left, and over twenty years in it - its just a harsh awakening at times. You summed it up quite well.

Quote
ScoobyDooby
What is the difference between an evangelical Christian saying "You must except Jesus Christ as your personal savior" and an SGI member saying "You must except Daisaku Ikeda as your mentor"? Nothing. Personally, both statements give me the creeps.

Not to get preachy here, but there is a vast difference between the two statements.

In the case of the Christian referring to Jesus, if you follow the scriptural linkages through his life and what followed, the reference has nothing to do with the man and everything to do with a spiritual end-point (I'm deliberately being obtuse here since I don't want to get into any dogmatic arguments)

In the case of a YD member saying the same about Ikea, he is merely a man, and given the number of pot-holes in the SGI road to nirvana, I personally think he is probably the last person you'd want as a "master". In the end, at the best, he is/was/will be just an icon of the lay organization, and is imbued with all of the human frailties. If he were more then the effects would be apparent but I just don't see them.

Shakyamuni taught for an extended period and a myriad of blessings appeared no matter what level he taught at. If hundreds of thousands (nay millions? -grin-) of members were linked up with Ikea's Buddha-like presence, then enlightenment would be breaking out spontaneously across the world. Is it?

To be fair, if he were the real thing - that would mean either (1) the connection with the disciple was poor (2) the disciples knew what they should do but didn't do it or (3) they are doing the right thing but it just isn't manifest.

Shakamuni didn't have all of the communications tools, nor did he have a huge lay organization to stoke "alms" into it's furnace and yet he transformed sufficient numbers of peoples lives to be canonized for two millenium. Ikea writes articles and gets "honorary" awards and based on what I've seen in the organization, what others have told me and what I read here, very little in the way of "direct master disciple spontaneous enlightenment" is happening (or did I just miss the memo?)

Hypothetically, and to make the parallel case, I wonder if Shakamuni spent his time designing erotic images of himself to hang in a temple or stockpiling his rice alms just in case he needed to pay off some aggravated woman's family. Sounds like the "Master" has his own problems with the "Shaba Sekai" (world of desires).

One last thought. Ikea seems to be an Elvis-like entity. Does he ever mix with the "little people"? In Chicago they had the "presidents room" for whenever he came, and the one time I recall he did, he didn't do much more than stay there and then leave again. He spoke at a special sunday KR Gongyo through an interpreter (pretty gal...) and then zoom! he was gone. Just when I was about to establish the critical Master/Disciple connection and suddenly (like in a bugs bunny cartoon) there was a Ikea shaped cloud where he once stood. To my mind, a truly dynamic leader would instead have avoided the arbitrary barrier produced by his "position" and spent a little time being "real". Mr Williams did (although his saxiphone playing left a lot to be desired), he did have the courage (and the common courtesy) to come out from behind the mask and show he put his pants on one leg at a time, like the rest of us. Say what you will about Rijicho, he made his mistakes but he had the courage to own them too.

Ho-hum.

Wakatta



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2010 08:22AM by wakatta1.

SGI leader: Hai!
SGI member: Hi!
SGI leader: No. HAI!
SGI member: How high?


SGI leader: Can you give an experience at the next Area meeting?:
SGI member: Ok. How about the time I went to Atlantic City and lost all my money. I had to beg the toll man to let me through the Lincoln tunnel. I chanted to myself and he let me go through. Then I went home and ate peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and spaghetti, ketchup, and canned peas for two weeks.
SGI leader: Did you learn anything from the experience?
SGI member: Yes, to always leave toll money in the car and stock up on food before I go to Atlantic city. I also thought about what Sensei would do in my situation.
SGI leader: You did?
SGI member: He would call his chauffeur to bring him another bag of Zaimu.
SGI leader: You certainly have done a lot of human revolution.
SGI member: Like Zapata?
SGI leader: No. Like Sennichi Yamamoto.
SGI member: Who dat?
SGI leader: That is Sensei’s fictionalized name in his book, The Human Revolution.
SGI member: Oh yeah, I forgot. We read about him last year, the year before that, the year before that, and the year before that. There were no battles or anything except with that old priest Ogasawara. Sennichi roughed him up pretty good.
SGI leader: Of course there are no battles except with the Dantos, the Kempon Hokke, and the Nichiren Shu. This is a battle with yourself, a battle to follow Sensei no matter what, like he followed his mentor, President Toda.
SGI member: Like Simon Bolivar says?
SGI leader: More like Simple Simon says: President Ikeda says do this, President Ikeda says do that, President Ikeda says do this, and President Ikeda says do that, and you do it. But if your heart and mind says do this or do that, don’t do it.
SGI Member: You mean if President Ikeda says, Nichiren is the True Buddha, and President Ikeda says, only recite the Hoben-pon and Jiga-ge sections of the Lotus Sutra, and President Ikeda says, only believe in the Nichikan Gohonzon, and President Ikeda says, touch your nose, and President Ikeda says touch your left shoulder, you do it. But if you feel like chanting the entire 16th Chapter, or if you feel compelled to revere Shakyamuni as the Eternal Original Buddha, or if your tushy itches, you don’t scratch it because President Ikeda didn’t say to touch your tushy.
SGI leader: That is overcoming your negativity and your ego. That is human revolution!
SGI member: Now I understand. Sennichi threw that old priest, Ogasawara, into the pond because President Toda said to throw him in. I bet President Ikeda would tell us to throw Rev. Nagasaki of the New York temple into the Hudson river.
SGI leader: That would be too good for him. But first you have to clean President Ikeda’s toilet in the President’s room.
SGI member: But no one has been up to that room in 12 years.
SGI leader: President Ikeda says to keep his toilet clean because you never know when he might show up.
SGI member: Hai!
SGI leader: Heil!

@ Wakatta

I think the comparison is not in the sense to compare Jesus to Ikeda but the MUST in the two slogans. Somebody telling you what to believe in and thereby reach salvation. I also see the similarities between SGI and Christian Evangelicals. Both groups are religious fundamentalists, as any other belief is condemned and religious bigotry basically accepted.
Such an atmosphere creates a certain kind of arrogance in some giving them the feeling of belonging to a chosen group. They feel elevated since they, and only they, have a share of the 'truth'. Any discussion on a philosophical basis that reaches beyond the rim of their own tea cup is useless, as anybody elses ideas are regarded inferior, impure or as it was called in SGI 'hobo'. The thing though is – its just a very small step until they will regard any other individual not living up to their own set standards as 'inferior' too - thats when danger is near.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2010 02:16PM by Rothaus.

Quote
Rothaus
@ Wakatta

I think the comparison is not in the sense to compare Jesus to Ikeda but the MUST in the two slogans. Somebody telling you what to believe in and thereby reach salvation. I also see the similarities between SGI and Christian Evangelicals. Both groups are religious fundamentalists, as any other belief is condemned and religious bigotry basically accepted.
Such an atmosphere creates a certain kind of arrogance in some giving them the feeling of belonging to a chosen group. They feel elevated since they, and only they, have a share of the 'truth'. Any discussion on a philosophical basis that reaches beyond the rim of their own tea cup is useless, as anybody elses ideas are regarded inferior, impure or as it was called in SGI 'hobo'. The thing though is – its just a very small step until they will regard any other individual not living up to their own set standards as 'inferior' too - thats when danger is near.

Dear Rothaus;

You have been highly critical of me and I have never been harsh with you because what we are doing here is more important than personal squabbles. However, what you say goes both ways. Apparently, to you, tolerance does have its limits. You, for example, certainly are intolerant of intolerance. Are you tolerant of the Taliban? Because I am not tolerant of either their philosophy which is inferior, or their violent persons, is your flawed philosophy of universal tolerance, fundamentally better? There is a concept in Buddhism of intolerance towards evil. However, no one on earth is more peaceful and less likely to resort to violence than a True Buddhist. please take this in the spirit in which it is given.

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2010 08:22PM by Nichijew.

Dear Mark,
 
I am somewhat surprised that you take my latest message as being offensive towards you, so it must have hit a sensitive spot. In my books one most not tolerate intolerance I could not care less if this intolerance is being practised disguised as religion, politics or whatever.
Evil is a relative perception. You brought up the Taliban – well in their concept we in the West are all ‘evil’, our ways of life being regarded degenerated. Some consider gays or any kind of sexual conduct ‘evil’, some find popular music ‘evil’, some say sex with prostitutes is 'evil' and sometimes those who say such things are 'evil' will indulge in doing exactly that and somewhere out there Mark, there are those who will declare you being ‘evil’ since you are no Christian. So who's 'evil' are we talking about? Who is the authority on ‘evil’?

One now may even quote the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren speaking of ‘evil’. The first piece as we know has had many authors in its core though it holds also highest respect for life – that to me is crucial. Some groups (even those who oppose each other) in Nichiren Buddhism will also call the respective side ‘evil’ – funny enough they will quote the same source. I see Nichiren as a child of his time to though using the means available to him, also in a mental sense, fighting an utterly corrupted religious and political system. He did after all live in 13th century Japan! I often like to compare it to Martin Luther, he predicted three times domes days (that never came) and as I said before did not really oppose burning of witches and persecution of Jews. Modern day Lutherans I would say do not really hold these concepts dear – do they? Okay some of their religious offspring might. So one see religious figures always against the background of the days they lived in.

The greatest achievement of the West in my books is the age of enlightenment – an era that first of all put the church (religion) in the place it belongs to – the private realm.
And I will not seize to state that most (indeed not all) conflicts and wars going on theses days have their roots in religious disputes. I do not blame that on the respective religious beliefs as almost none of the concepts could give reason to such violence, but its always individuals who would declare fighting for some higher value and since they have no better idea they base their actions on religion.
You once said: 'From our [Kempon Hokke's] perspective, interfaith. though politically correct and superficially noble, is not in accord with the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren Daishonin.'. To be honest Mark, I find this comment arrogant, pompous and self-righteous.

I do indeed believe that religion can play an important role overcoming the worlds problems and since religion has been its prime source it actually should be obliged doing so.
The famous Swiss theologian Hans Küng talks of the idea of a 'world ethos' that faiths should contribute towards, but since this is only for the 'superficially noble' you wont't be able to grasp it I guess.

I think its a Jewish saying that goes:
“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

So if one declares somebody based on his faith evil, he or she should not be surprised to see their followers trying to stamp out the 'evil' by taking force. So it seems you and SGI do in the end have something very much in common.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2010 12:17AM by Rothaus.

@Rothaus responding to Nichijew
You wrote, "You once said: 'From our [Kempon Hokke's] perspective, interfaith. though politically correct and superficially noble, is not in accord with the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren Daishonin.'. To be honest Mark, I find this comment arrogant, pompous and self-righteous.

I do indeed believe that religion can play an important role overcoming the worlds problems and since religion has been its prime source it actually should be obliged doing so.
The famous Swiss theologian Hans Küng talks of the idea of a 'world ethos' that faiths should contribute towards, but since this is only for the 'superficially noble' you won't be able to grasp it I guess.

I think its a Jewish saying that goes:
“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

So if one declares somebody based on his faith evil, he or she should not be surprised to see their followers trying to stamp out the 'evil' by taking force. So it seems you and SGI do in the end have something very much in common."

I must admit that I like your argument Rothaus. Leaving aside arrogance and self-righteousness, the danger in declaring your sect or group the holder of the truth has the potential of encouraging your followers to take violent action against those outside of your group's values. All that would happen is that we would end up where we are now. My faith evolution (some may call it otherwise) has now become strictly personal and I am loving it. In fact, I cannot believe how much lighter and happier I have been since the beginning of June. I am now totally comfortable praising Shakyamuni, Nichiren, Myoho-Renge-Kyo itself, Jesus, and God when I chant to the Gohonzon. I no longer feel the need to emphasize the exclusivity of goodness, virtue, compassion, or happiness by tying it to just one person. I remain grateful to the priests, Ikeda, and the SGI members who brought the practice to me and supported me through the up's and down's of my life, but it has been great not stressing out about SGI meetings, Ikeda rallies, mentor-disciple talk, deluded Buddhists, publications, etc. This forum has helped me deal with my departure, which was difficult at first, but not now. SGI is not going to change until the members are so dissatisfied that they start leaving in droves. That probably won't happen. Many who stick around seem to like things the way they are or they are too afraid to make their feelings known. I don't have the time or the interest to inquire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2010 07:11AM by doubtful.

alright already. the moderator did ask nicely for no personal attacks. I don't understand why Nichijew called Rothaus out from the sidelines deliberately even though the moderator specifically asked for no mud slinging. Nichjew - you must know that your posts are pushing the envelope. You are a learned man. However, there was no need to attack anyone personally. Nichiren was always up for a good debate. But there is a fine line between debate and singling someone out in the group. I know you think Kempon Hokke is superior. I will not go into any doctrine. I will lose. Not because you know more than me and are therefore more enlightened. But because of the arrogance that comes out. I will never be able to fix your character (nor you mine for that matter). So lets end it now!

I personally love chanting and practicing with the people in the SGI.