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Nichijew
interfaith. though politically correct and superficially noble, is not in accord with the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren Daishonin.

What a load of bull sh.t

You guys just seem as bad as the Gakkai folks.

@Nichijew, you wrote, "From our [Kempon Hokke's] perspective, interfaith. though politically correct and superficially noble, is not in accord with the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren Daishonin. Therefore, it is a lie for SGI to call itself Nichiren's Buddhism. They are extremely active in interfaith activities. Interfaith, as 'world peace', sells."
Okay, I understand your point of view, but where does that leave those of us who have been educated to believe in diversity, in the need to respect other people's faiths and opinions? I know you see the Lotus Sutra as the ultimate teaching. Now I suspect that you would like to see it supplant all others. But what do you want the rest of us to do until we feel the same way as you, which might never happen? See, I don't think it's healthy to suggest that one teaching is the be-all-end-all. That puts an unrealistic burden on you and the teaching. After all, Nichiren's followers were puzzled as to why he continued to experience so much trouble despite his unwavering faith in the Dharma Flower. To that he countered that he was expiating earlier slander of the teaching. So is this what would happen if the world embraced the Lotus Sutra and continued to experience disease, natural disasters, and civil unrest? Would "experts" then explain that we would continue to experience trouble because we had once embraced numerous other teachings? In short, we would probably end up looking like we do now with an ambiguous positive transformation in the distant future. By that point people would simply abandon this faith too. At this point in my life, I expect no guarantees from anyone or anything. Yes, the SGI has some serious problems but I also feel that Ikeda has a lot of good points as does the organization. Certainly my reaction to the video of "Forever Sensei" reminded me of that. This was not simply a reaction to PR either. I cannot deny that for the better part of 21 years many of the leaders, members, activities and even the publications(prior to about 5 years ago) provided me with a lot of encouragement. I buried relatives, prayed for successful medical operations for loved ones, faced termination at work due to my own errors, struggled with my demons which came in so many guises internally and externally. Through all of these experiences many leaders and members were there for me and so were the gosho and articles in the pubs. Consequently, I cannot call SGI evil, despite some of its problems. I hope that you do not take all of this the wrong way. It is not my intention.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2010 11:18PM by doubtful.

@ Doubtful

Leaving the Nichijew comment aside I would however doubt to talk of the 'good' SGI or Ikeda have caused.

What good are we talking about? An introduction to Buddhism? By all standards set by Buddhist umbrella organisations I would seriously doubt that what SGI and Ikeda preach has anything to do with Buddhism.

Cultish patterns in my books begin were one excludes another person based on their faith, its a form of discrimination. Here we have Nichijew on board again. There is simply no excuse for that – you did read the testimony by those who grew up in Ikedasim.

There are some interesting parallels to fascism here. In the decades after the war one would have often heard some Germans say (as an excuse) that the Nazis did so much good by building motorways and creating jobs. First of all this is a statement being wrong by fact, as the German economy of the Weimar Republic was on the road to recovery, secondly the motorways were invented in the Weimar Republic and third and most important NEVER EVER could this have served as an excuse for the despicable atrocities that took place. Certainly one can not compare Nazis and SGI, but I believe that a very crude awakening is ahead for those who believe in the 'good' of SGI and Ikeda. This is a cult with all the negative side effects which will surface. Please do not start making excuses (that lack any foundation) for what becomes more and more obvious.


I also say this directed to the moderators – Kempon Hokke in my books show clear signs of cultish behaviour. I will only say this once in this forum. I do not agree if one cult uses this forum to attract members to their respective cult. I find that somewhat disturbing. I will openly say that I sympathise with Nichiren Shu, but I am no member of them. I would however stay clear to advertise for them in the open forum. I regard this as an ex-SGI forum and I feel uncomfortable if somebody wants to sell their self declared religious 'truths' here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2010 12:48AM by Rothaus.

To whom it may concern:

Please avoid preaching here.

This is not a place to proselytize or promote personal religious beliefs. And it's important to be sensitive to the fact that people who have left SGI are not necessarily interested in learning about another religion or religious group.

The focus of this thread is to discuss SGI and its behavior.

Everyone here should try to be respectful of differences and not allow this thread to devolve into personal attacks and/or arguments.

Some people that have left SGI continue to practice Buddhism, some do not.

Some may have moved on to another religion, while others may have decided to take a break from religion.

Let's allow each person their space.

Given the unique value of information on this thread concerning SGI, it would be a shame to sidetrack this meaningful informational resource.

doubtful,
You had a much different reaction to the YouTube videos than me & I can respect that. However, I highly doubt that Nichiren Daishonin would be happy about the central most important part of his buddhist practice - The Law of the Universe - being sung to the tune of a rock & roll song from the 50's. I grew up in the practice but nobody had to ever get me "excited" about it by (what I consider) desecrating the cores of the religion. Humorous skits & such are fine, but the tenets of the Daishonin's Buddhism are basically being mocked in those songs.

Regarding "Forever Sensei," I had been singing that song since I was a tot. And for those of you who don't know, that song wasn't just sung at the big meetings in the 80's - it was sung at EVERY meeting. Every district meeting that I ever went to ended in the singing of "Forever Sensei," like it was mandatory. After the priesthood split, I remember everyone saying that we were going to stop all the singing & dancing & "get serious" (I also recall that all that singing & dancing was blamed on George M. Williams). Sure enough, the singing of "Forever Sensei" was put on hiatus. And, just as it felt really weird to just simply end the meetings with sansho, it felt equally weird when the song started reappearing again with the shift towards worshipping the mentor. I guess the SGI had enough of being "serious" - it was time to start singing & dancing again! Looking back, I think the only reason we "got serious" was so that the priesthood couldn't point their fingers at us & say that we were treating the practice in a lighthearted way........which brings me back to the offensive songs on those YouTube videos.

@ rrmoderator

Thank you !

For sure – SGI members are mislead – misdirected – misinformed - cultish for sure – anecdotal – I am @ a meeting and a leader tells a new member having personal issues to “except president Ikeda as your mentor so that you can attain true happiness” I almost fell over! And @ another meeting they were doing a mind melt check and having everyone go around the room and expound that Ikeda is their mentor and not just in practice but some even said a mentor in their life! And let’s not forget the monthly Ikeda DVD so that he can pontificate on all his accomplishments. Then there’s the youth coming up to you and making unquantifiable statements like Ikeda is my mentor or my only mentor! I have tried in vain to talk to some of them about what they think and I got nowhere everything out of their mouths has something to do with Ikeda! Very sad to see indeed. Reminds me of youth movements in China and North Korea and the dear leader concept!

@ doubtful.

I agree so much with most of what you have said, my experience with the Gakkai was not all bad and I have to have appreciation for the many sincere members who supported me in times of need. I think it is important to point out the ways the Gakkai is off, but also to remember those who did help you. Remembering the good times is the thing that keeps me from thinking that it was a complete waste of time.

@cyclops,

More and more "accept President Ikeda as your mentor" sounds so much like "accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour". There always seems to be someone , somewhere trying to get people away from the fact that just as we are , we are very powerful beings.

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doubtful
Certainly my reaction to the video of "Forever Sensei" reminded me of that. This was not simply a reaction to PR either. I cannot deny that for the better part of 21 years many of the leaders, members, activities and even the publications(prior to about 5 years ago) provided me with a lot of encouragement. I buried relatives, prayed for successful medical operations for loved ones, faced termination at work due to my own errors, struggled with my demons which came in so many guises internally and externally. Through all of these experiences many leaders and members were there for me and so were the gosho and articles in the pubs. Consequently, I cannot call SGI evil, despite some of its problems. I hope that you do not take all of this the wrong way. It is not my intention.

I think its easy to explain this phenomena. I by no means believe that SGI was 'a pure force of good' at any time in its history (a read over Toda and Ikeda's speaches from the 50's and 60's reveal that) but certainly from its creation up until maybe 5 - 10 years ago it was spreading Nichiren buddhism and buddhism in general. A doctor who is greedy, self interested and arrogant will still cure many people of diseases and ailments.
SGI was introducing many people to Nichiren buddhism, which (although I wouldn't consider myself a practicing Nichiren buddhist) I believe can be profoundly benificial to a person who practices it correctly.
I don't mean 'correctly' in regards to which sect they join or which colour robes they wear, but by the state of mind they are able to foster and the decisions they make in their lives.

I think thats the only meaningful distinction that can be made. Yes you had many wonderful, comforting, happy experiences while you were in SGI, but they stemmed from buddhism, not SGI. The events of the last 5 years surely prove that? I believe there will still be many people in SGI who think it has a lot to offer and brings them benefit and happiness. But its the buddhism they are holding on to, while SGI itself tries to pull it away.

You mentioned in another post you were happy to see the youth in the RTE videos, looking so happy and joyful, and you wouldn't want to take that away from them. There's two points I would say about that. Firstly, would you be supportive and pleased for someone who was blindly walking towards the edge of a cliff, with a happy smile and hope in their eyes as they believed they were walking towards a calm, beautiful place?
Secondly, I'm no psychiatrist, but it seems you did have a a lot of happy times when you were in youth division. Do you think your judgement of the present circumstances could be clouded by your own experiences, in an almost sentimental way?

I hope I don't come across as harsh or too personal here, just want to help.

David

@Morgaine, you wrote, "I agree so much with most of what you have said, my experience with the Gakkai was not all bad and I have to have appreciation for the many sincere members who supported me in times of need. I think it is important to point out the ways the Gakkai is off, but also to remember those who did help you. Remembering the good times is the thing that keeps me from thinking that it was a complete waste of time."
Thanks. Perhaps my sentimental reaction to the RTE videos and the "Forever Sensei" video was a way of telling myself that it was not a complete waste of time since we did not change the world or grow the organization significantly.

@cyclops, You indicated that some leaders would tell new members who were having problems to "accept Ikeda as their mentor to attain true happiness." I have heard that before. In fact, it must be in the training that leaders get, the ready-made phrases to give out. You also wrote, "@ another meeting they were doing a mind melt check and having everyone go around the room and expound that Ikeda is their mentor and not just in practice but some even said a mentor in their life! And let’s not forget the monthly Ikeda DVD so that he can pontificate on all his accomplishments. Then there’s the youth coming up to you and making unquantifiable statements like Ikeda is my mentor or my only mentor! I have tried in vain to talk to some of them about what they think and I got nowhere everything out of their mouths has something to do with Ikeda! Very sad to see indeed. Reminds me of youth movements in China and North Korea and the dear leader concept!" That kind of thing is what drove me out of the organization. My question is, does anyone at the top of SGI see that this mentor/disciple thing will hurt them in the long run? I cannot believe that anyone becomes happy or successful simply because they see Ikeda as their mentor. I have always thought that people become happy or successful by challenging their struggles, maintaining a realistic expectation of life's ups and downs, and by studying or working hard. Does anyone need Ikeda to tell them that? Isn't that what parents, guidance counselors, teachers, and relatives do? I am sure that some time in the near future many of the current YD will realize that they have been duped. For all of SGI's talk of dreams, when exactly are the YD supposed to work on them? The YD have been super busy with RTE since last fall. Does anyone really believe that any of the participants will be one step closer to achieving anything?
@DavidM, you wrote to me, "it seems you did have a a lot of happy times when you were in youth division. Do you think your judgment of the present circumstances could be clouded by your own experiences, in an almost sentimental way?" You need not worry about offending me. You are probably right. The song made me sentimental which made me forget why I became active on this forum--but just temporarily. The direction they have been going in for years should not come as a surprise. The existence of The Human Revolution and Ikeda's bad poetry were always constant reminders of the organization's cult-like qualities. Nevertheless, we were not being told to accept him as our mentor in order to be happy or achieve our goals until pretty recently. This has backfired because someone like me would have never joined a forum like this or criticized Ikeda openly. The many older and newer members who have left also demonstrate that the strategy is failing. SGI must be desperate. The organization is not growing significantly and they might be afraid that once the charismatic leader is gone, the rest of the members might leave. Someone else recently posted something I found interesting, something to the effect that the days of big organizations might be over. Most people can access everything on line, including critical views of anything out there. If people continue downloading Gohonzons, organizations like SGI might face extinction. While I was on youtube last night, I decided to check out some of the other Nichiren-related videos and comments. I was surprised to find that some people are already by-passing the temples and the organizations.