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DrJesusEsq

Here is what I would tell your friend: Of course we are disgruntled members! We gave our lives and hearts to an organization that we believed in, only to be disappointed again and again until we said enough is enough!

Very true!! Saying we just left because of the split is ridiculous. When the split happened, it seemed very sad to me. But when it went on and on, I became distrustful of SGI. I started to wonder what is the big deal and did they just make up the whole conflict with Nichiren Shoshu? If the temple was trying so hard to destroy SGI, why did they not try to get their members away? It seemed that as an active member I would be a prime candidate to try to win over to the other side. I never once was approached by the temple to join their side. I never even met a temple member! It really made me wonder what the problem was and why SGI was so hateful.

I went along with, but would not participate in the "soka spirit" movement and became more and more uncomfortable with it and many other things...But when the "mentor/disciple" concept became the focus, I said enough is enough!

Chloe: "she said that they were just a bunch of disgruntled memebers and most of the stuff was during the split when there was a lot of confusion."

If there was confusion at the time of the split, who created it? SGI! SGI's standard response to any criticism is to bash the critic. Leaders will tell you that the SGI in Japan is persecuted by "yellow journalists" and SGI overall is attacked by "bitter, disgruntled former members." Well, does it ever occur to anyone to ask why SGI has so many "disgruntled former members" both in Japan and abroad? That people actually have legitimate concerns about the overemphasis on Ikeda, SGI's lack of financial accountability, the top-down managment, and the inattention to Buddhism?


quiet one: "Saying we just left because of the split is ridiculous. When the split happened, it seemed very sad to me. But when it went on and on, I became distrustful of SGI. I started to wonder what is the big deal and did they just make up the whole conflict with Nichiren Shoshu? If the temple was trying so hard to destroy SGI, why did they not try to get their members away? It seemed that as an active member I would be a prime candidate to try to win over to the other side. I never once was approached by the temple to join their side. I never even met a temple member! It really made me wonder what the problem was and why SGI was so hateful. "

This was my experience too. The split certainly made me think about SGI in a different way and ask questions. I felt even then that SGI was not telling members the whole story, and the intense animosity toward Nichiren Shoshu also bothered me. It just went on and on -- why couldn't SGI just say that they disagreed with the priesthood for such and such a reason, and then move on? In the end, though, I didn't leave until 2006, fifteen years after the split. Why? I was so tired of mentor/disciple....I couldn't believe SGI was doing exactly what they'd criticized the priests for. I was tired of the lack of study, of the lack of voice members had in the organization, and I couldn't accept how people who criticized SGI, like Lisa Jones and Byrd, were treated.

I actually did have encounters with Nichiren Shoshu at the time of the split. While on vacation, I visited a temple and had a discussion about the split with one of the members. He was a very nice reasonable guy who made some good points. After I got home, I also spoke over the phone to a member of the temple nearest my house. I initiated both contacts. In both cases, the members were very willing to speak to me...but did not pressure me to join the temple. They didn't even ASK me to join. (I might have explored Nichiren Shoshu if I had lived closer to either temple.) So my experience didn't jibe with what SGI was telling us....that the temple lived to lure innocent and unsuspecting SGI members into their evil web. That was SGI propaganda -- that old trick of unifying people by scaring them and giving them a common enemy. I remember attending an SGI meeting, around that same time, where some leader was telling us that we should watch out because he'd heard that some priests were coming to town. Apparently looking for some Soka Gakkai souls to steal. Some members were actually scared! Given the experiences I'd had with Nichiren Shoshu, the SGI hysteria seemed crazy. What did they think the priests were going to do, pull guns from under those gray robes and drag members off to the temple at gunpoint?

And in the end, no Nichiren Shoshu priests ever showed up in town anyway! My, my, all that fear over something that never did happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 12:43PM by tsukimoto.

@quiet_one

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Saying we just left because of the split is ridiculous. When the split happened, it seemed very sad to me. But when it went on and on, I became distrustful of SGI. I started to wonder what is the big deal and did they just make up the whole conflict with Nichiren Shoshu? If the temple was trying so hard to destroy SGI, why did they not try to get their members away?

Actually, I believe that SGI was told to disband and to direct it's members to focus on the temple. It isn't clear exactly what really was afoot since the SGI leadership are a secretive bunch of people, but to me at least it looked like a power play on the part of SGI - heaven forbid they respect the members enough to tell the full story.

I think this came about because Ikea and cronies continued to take liberties with the lay organization, (almost as if it was their personal property... kinda like where things have ended up at these days, eh?). "Little things" such as putting an erotic fresco of Ikea himself at sho-hondo (shudder). The list is long....

I believe eventually the temple finally had "enough" and threw down the gauntlet. That act then enabled SGI/Ikea to contrive themselves as the victims and scream "foul" thus permitting them to take their personal property (the lay organization) and head for the exit. Perhaps they felt that the temple would eventually cave in and create a new, looser relationship with Ikea but that just wasn't in the cards.

And then, to deal with the criticism they rightfully expected (and deserved), they then started the "Them eeeevvvviiiilllll priests" disinformation campaign and the rest is history. Sadly, the temple engaged in a little of the name-calling as well, but nowhere was it as much and as vicious as SGI (this went on both in the US and in Japan, I believe in Japan the lay members actually got into fist-fights with temple members over this!).

So from my point of view, the split was the first really clear indication that the lay leadership (Ikea and his ilk) had become deeply corrupt and was leading the organization in the wrong direction. Those events, when added to a lot of other worrisome trends that continued to bother me from the start finally caused my views to gel. I pretty much knew what I had to do, and resolving that "life is short", I just stopped my involvement with SGI - returned the Gohonzon (to the temple), sold my pariphenalia and have never looked back.

Also, knowing what I know of Japanese Pride I know that it would be a very cold day in hell before Ikea and his inner circle would ever reconcile with the temple, the die was cast and I just didn't want to go to the places they were going.

It is important to note that the biggest detractors of SGI are middle-high and high leaders who have fallen away. Is this because they are defective or is it because people with scruples eventually can no longer stand to be "used" by a corrupt and cynical organization?

Wakatta



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 06:26PM by wakatta1.

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wakatta1
Actually, I believe that SGI was told to disband and to direct it's members to focus on the temple. It isn't clear exactly what really was afoot since the SGI leadership are a secretive bunch of people, but to me at least it looked like a power play on the part of SGI - heaven forbid they respect the members enough to tell the full story.

I believe eventually the temple finally had "enough" and threw down the gauntlet. That act then enabled SGI/Ikea to contrive themselves as the victims and scream "foul" thus permitting them to take their personal property (the lay organization) and head for the exit.

And then, to deal with the criticism they rightfully expected (and deserved), they then started the "Them eeeevvvviiiilllll priests" disinformation campaign and the rest is history.

Wakatta

This is the way I remember it too. From what I heard, Nikken Abe, the then-high priest of Nichiren Shoshu, directed SGI to disband. Members were told to join the nearest temple.

Though honestly, if that's what Nikken said, he was a bit out of touch with reality. He certainly underestimated how attached SGI members were to SGI. I also wonder if he truly understood how wide and spread-out North America is. How did he expect the American and Canadian members to join a temple, when so many people live so far from one? (I don't know the situation in South America, Africa and Europe.) Could Nichiren Shoshu afford to build more temples overseas, and were there enough priests to staff them? Priests who wanted to live overseas and could speak the languages? Was Nichiren Shoshu willing to recruit and ordain priests who were not Japanese? Did Nikken even think about these things?

Maybe Nikken wasn't thinking about these things, but I'm sure Ikeda was. And he just decided that the time had come to make his move. I think he deliberately provoked the priesthood with issues like changing the silent prayers and the erotic bronze, and Nikken responded as expected.

Hasn't Ikeda always had a rocky relationship with the priests? Didn't Ikeda actually step down as SGI president for a time in the late 1970's, under pressure from Nittatsu, who was then the high priest? Ikeda is simply not a person who could accept having anyone tell him what he could and couldn't do, and by the early 1990's, he knew that he didn't have to. He knew that the majority of SGI members would remain with the Soka Gakkai, rather than joining Nichiren Shoshu.

More info on the Priesthood/SGI conflict, from an article on the Nichiren's Coffeehouse website by Ryuei Michael McCormick, a Nichiren Shu priest.

[nichirenscoffeehouse.net]

----------------------Beginning of Quote------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1977, however, the relationship between the Soka Gakkai leadership and the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood began to break down. Due to statements made by Ikeda and the change of the gongyo prayers to include references to the Soka Gakkai, the Nichiren Shoshu priests were angered that the Soka Gakkai seemed to be equating itself with the third of the Three Treasure, the priesthood.

The priesthood, however, were further angered in 1978 when the Soka Gakkai allegedly made unauthorized copies of the Gohonzon for their community centers.

The Nichiren Shoshu priesthood and its original lay organization, the Hokkeko, however, were still not satisfied with the Soka Gakkai's apologies and were not convinced that the Soka Gakkai had changed its attitudes. In March 1979, the Hokkeko began pressuring Ikeda to resign as chief lay representative of Nichiren Shoshu. In April 1979, Ikeda stepped down as president of Soka Gakkai and as chief lay representative of Nichiren Shoshu. In his place, Hiroshi Hojo became the fourth president of the Soka Gakkai. Ikeda, however, became the honorary president of Soka Gakkai and the president of Soka Gakkai International.

The relationship between the Soka Gakkai and the Nichiren Shoshu was fairly harmonious during the rest of the 80's. Ikeda was even reappointed as the chief lay representative of Nichiren Shoshu on January 2, 1984. This peace would not last however. During 1990 the tensions between the two groups erupted again, resulting in the dismissal of Ikeda as the chief lay representative of Nichiren Shoshu in December.

Throughout 1991 the accusations and recriminations between the Nichiren Shoshu and the Soka Gakkai intensified. On November 8, 1991, the Nichiren Shoshu demanded that the Soka Gakkai disband. When the Soka Gakkai refused and instead intensified its criticisms of Nikken and the actions of the priesthood, the Nichiren Shoshu excommunicated the Soka Gakkai en masse on November 28. .

The next year, on August 11, 1992, the Nichiren Shoshu personally excommunicated Ikeda from the Nichiren Shoshu. On October 2, 1993 the Soka Gakkai began to issue its own Gohonzons, using one originally transcribed by Nichikan, the 26th High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu. On November 30, 1997, the Nichiren Shoshu excommunicated the actual members of Soka Gakkai who refused to leave the organization to join the Hokkeko

The Soka Gakkai claims to have 8 million members in Japan and 300,000 in the U.S., but more conservative estimates put the Japanese membership at 4 million and the U.S. membership at just under 36,000 in 1997.
---------------------------------End of Quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The history of SGI that leaders will not tell you. During my years in the Soka Gakkai, I never knew that there was actually a fourth Soka Gakkai president, Hiroshi Hojo.

Interesting that Nichiren Shoshu felt that they had to excommunicate SGI members twice -- on November 28, 1991, and on November 30, 1997. Was Nikken afraid that the first excommunication didn't work?

What does it really mean to be excommunicated in a situation like this? At the time, I still had my Gohonzon, and my Gosho book, and I was still chanting and studying. To me, at first, "excommunication" just felt like a war of words between men in suits and men in robes.

I remember hearing that SGI had 300,000 members in the U.S. Quite a difference from 36,000. I'm sure that we'll soon be hearing about the millions of people who attended Rock the Era.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2010 02:07AM by tsukimoto.

Flash back – for sure cultish is the word when I was doing shakubuku in the 80’s – most people that would give me blow back would say – you’re in a personality cult and get out while you can! So I would inquire what makes you say that! They responded - it’s all about your President and when he goes your movement it over! AND don’t drink the Kool-Aid!!! Not sure about the latter but Ikeda power struggle with the temple was evident even back then it just under the radar screen! So the break-up for sure gave Ikeda the total power over the SGI without any checks to whatever he wanted to do. Sad a lot of us do like the practice without the total control of the SGI always trying to keep everyone in check. We’ll have to see how SGI handles the departure of their mentor! I feel it’s not going to be pretty.

I agree, cyclops. I think maybe a lot of chanting "Nikken Out!" (or whoever when the time comes) and possibly eventual reabsorption into the temple with a whimper.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2010 06:42AM by Sparky.

@Sparky You wrote that after Ikeda's departure, "possibly eventual reabsorption into the temple with a whimper" may be an option. That's something I never considered. It might be a good way to go since they could keep each other in check. A merger would also satisfy the guests and members who feel a clergy gives a legitimacy to the practice/sect. Both the organization and the priesthood have shown themselves to be deeply flawed anyway so getting back together might be a good thing.
@cyclops You wrote, "you’re in a personality cult and get out while you can!" I agree. I certainly cannot claim no one ever questioned my devotion to this organization/practice. Yet, most people probably saw SGI as harmless so they did not make too big a deal out of my involvement. No, my theory is that something in me attracted me to this type of organization, possibly the illusion of my being part of a grand world-saving mission which would edge out other flawed, dangerous, or deficient practices/faiths/ideologies I knew nothing about. It's funny. As I am getting older I have to face the realization that intolerance often dresses itself up as a love of diversity and different opinions but most of us only welcome those things if we agree with them.
@tsukimoto I agree about the priesthood split being overdone. I never met a temple member but we were often warned about them. This sense of being under attack is not good at all. I remember when there was talk of Nikken coming to Ground Zero in NY and we were supposed to prevent this, at least with our prayer. I remember not wanting that evil NS priest there. Why? I also remember Linda Johnson asking us to pray to shut down the temples. Why? At the time I remembered that we do have freedom of religion here don't we?
Question I have for everyone: Did SGI activities ever make you feel peaceful? Their oft-stated objective was "world peace through individual happiness." First of all, how could I fall for something as simplistic, self-centered, and lazy as that? I have to claim my part in this. I often stated to this guests or to anyone who asked about us. Yet, I cannot recall ever feeling peaceful before, during, or after SGI activities. Chanting, yes. Activities, no. How about you all?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2010 01:44PM by doubtful.

Dear Doubtful;

It is very hard to feel peaceful when one is at cross purposes with oneself or the teachings one embraces. Let me give you some examples: SGI says that you, the members, are all Buddha's but there is no autonomy in the SGI. You can't go preaching Buddha Dharma as you see fit in the District meeting. There are constraints. How can a "Buddha of Absolute Freedom" have constraints? When one is told one thing but everyone acts contrary to what one is told, how can one be peaceful? Then, there is the matter of the teachings [doctrines] expounded by Ikeda and the leaders which don't match the teachings of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin who, supposedly they follow. A thoughtful and even halfway studious person will know something is a amiss but he is told by his leaders that the SGI teachings are not amiss, "you are amiss" [lack faith]. Here too then, there is a conflict between what you are seeing and experiencing and what you are being told. How can one be peaceful? Even though the Lotus Sutra promises, "peace and security in this life and a fortunate birth in the next", if indeed the Lotus Sutra is true [which I maintain it is] then it stands to reason what you are practicing in the SGI is not the Lotus Sutra. They would counter that if one practices the Lotus Sutra correctly, one is to encounter the Three Obstacles and Four Devils. I have two things to say about this: Encountering the Three Obstacles and Four devils is not an artificial construct like go clean the toilets for Sensei. Also, if one is practicing the Lotus Sutra correctly, even when one encounters the Three Obstacles and Four Devils, one is peaceful just the same.

Mark



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2010 02:56PM by Nichijew.

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doubtful
@Sparky You wrote that after Ikeda's departure, "possibly eventual reabsorption into the temple with a whimper" may be an option.

I remember when there was talk of Nikken coming to Ground Zero in NY and we were supposed to prevent this, at least with our prayer. I remember not wanting that evil NS priest there. Why? I also remember Linda Johnson asking us to pray to shut down the temples. Why? At the time I remembered that we do have freedom of religion here don't we?

Question I have for everyone: Did SGI activities ever make you feel peaceful? Their oft-stated objective was "world peace through individual happiness." First of all, how could I fall for something as simplistic, self-centered, and lazy as that? I have to claim my part in this. I often stated to this guests or to anyone who asked about us. Yet, I cannot recall ever feeling peaceful before, during, or after SGI activities. Chanting, yes. Activities, no. How about you all?

I really can't imagine SGI ever going back to the temple, even after Ikeda's demise. The older leaders and long-term members will remember SGI's hatred for the temple. Newer members won't have memories of ever being part of a temple or having priests -- so why would they suddenly feel that they need it?

I used to hope that SGI would go back to basics after Ikeda dies, bringing their focus back to daimoku and the Lotus Sutra. I don't think that anymore. The cult of personality is just too deeply rooted. I believe it will continue after Ikeda's death, and probably become worse. The Order of St. Daisaku, where members are urged to pray to him, study all of his writings, conduct seances to contact him on the other side. SGI has kept this personality cult going, even though most members have never even seen the great man in person. So why wouldn't this just keep going on after his death?

Much depends on the man who follows. (I don't see how the successor could be anyone but a Japanese man.) Will he be tough and clever enough to keep the organization together? I could see the organization splitting off into all these little groups, each fighting over who is most correctly interpreting the Great Sensei's teachings.


2. I remember being told to chant that Nikken would not come to New York, and to chant to shut down the temples. Nikken came to New York, and eventually retired at an advanced age, so you see how well that worked. I remember being at a meeting when a new member argued that we shouldn't be doing this. I was still an SGI-bot, arguing that the Nichiren Shoshu Buddhists were practicing incorrectly so shutting them down would really be an act of mercy. Yet, in the back of my mind, I was thinking, "Is this really true? What if it's not? Can I really be 100% certain that SGI is practicing correctly?" I didn't like feeling this dissonance, and didn't want to think about it. So I dwelled on how annoying this woman was!

3. How did SGI activities mke me feel? Some made me feel stressed, if I had to drive a long way or do a lot of work to get ready for them. I enjoyed others -- a good study session, or discussion meeting, if people stuck to talking about the Gosho, and how they applied them to their lives. Some of the bigger meetings, which drew people from all over the state, were fun. It was like a family reunion, seeing old friends that I didn't get to see regularly. Some of the YWD and WD meetings, where we'd have the meeting, but then have a potluck and socialize afterwards, they were fun too.

It wasn't that our meetings and activities were bad; many were enjoyable. I think that the stress came from there being so many of them, and from the pressure to participate in everything. However much a person did, it was never enough!

As time went on, our activities and meetings became more and more focused on the evils of Nikken and the wonders of Ikeda. And that's where things began breaking down for me. I felt increasingly irritated, listening to this foolishness. In the earlier years, I usually left meetings and activities feeling energized, inspired, optimistic. In later years, I came out of activities and meetings feeling frustrated, and annoyed, thinking, "Why did I even come to this!? It's such BS! Waste of time!"