Well, in SGI it is more important to chant for stuff. I mean, at the meetings, what kind of experiences did they give? It's all about "my goal is . . ." then "I chanted" then "I got this goal, and a new volvo while I was it! Thanks Sensei!"

I also think part of the SGI mentality is a lack of accountability for ones individual actions. I remember ( about 2 years back) this point when one time we were discussing the gosho on the 14 slanders. The whole point of the discussion (and apparently the gosho) is that if you chant the daimoku, you can do no wrong. You can never sin again. I also remember about 3 months after I started, our center had invited a chief YWD leader from LA (I forget her name) and she couldn't stop emphasizing that "you can do anything you want".

The danger of that mentality is that leaders, and members as well, can actually act in a selfish manner that can affect other people, while not feeling any guilt about doing so.

Evergreen, Wakatta, and Dr. Jesus, I think you all make great points.

Certainly, leadership (or lack thereof) is a big part of the problem. People chosen to be leaders are the people who will parrot the party line. That's how they'll lead...and who they'll promote.

Wakatta's "dialogue" between the questioning member and the party-line leader was spot-on. That bothered me so much when I was in SGI -- the lack of real discussion on issues. Leaders thought that we should be satisfied with slogans from Ikeda's "Daily Guidance Books," or the World Tribune or Seikyo Times. "Here's a slogan. Now sit down and shut up!"

The practice itself, as promoted by SGI, seems inherently self-centered and materialistic -- it's you, your desires, your Gohonzon, and your "relationship" with Sensei. You're encouraged to be devoted to the organization rather than other individual members.

Other religions speak of the obligation to help others who are less fortunate than you. SGI insists that you "help" the less fortunate by having them join SGI "so that they can change their own karma." It promotes that whole mentality of "if you can't solve your problems, you're just not chanting hard enough or doing enough for SGI." ie, "If you're miserable, it's your own damn fault," --- certainly a callous, self-righteous attitude.

And just the pressure to shakabuku, to have big numbers during the shakabuku campaigns -- and change YOUR karma by doing this. It encourages people to just grab people off of the street and push them to get a Gohonzon. You're using the other person as an object. You want them to get their Gohonzon so that YOU can achieve your goals. It really becomes ME ME ME rather than being about listening to the person, and respecting where they are.

Dear Tsukimoto:

"For instance, some say, "You can overcome your problems if you do shakubuku, if you promote Seikyo Shimbun you can be happy. You can be happy if you try to do more zaimu." This is a life condition of hunger. You are always expecting something in return. If you don't overcome your problem you will resent having made the effort. This is different from the life condition of Bodhisattva. The Daishonin states: "Self and others rejoice together."(Lisa Jones).

The World of Hunger is the second lowest of the Lower Worlds (most base human condition).

@nichijew

Don't forget Rapture, the big pay-off for Hunger!! As most of those reading here, the lower six worlds are tightly chained together and those chains are what really enslaves people to a group like the SGI cult. If you score big in one world and you wind up being dragged through the other five. Like winning at the casino, you keep going back for the rush. Successfully shakubuku someone and you go looking for two more. Never time to raise those people who you've shakubuku because the "organizational tempo" was just too high.

I also think this makes a negative case for Shomon and Engaku (Learning and absorbtion) since all of the SGI/NSA literature is wrapped around the Shin-gyo-gaku mindset (faith, practice, study) in which you are strongly encouraged to buy study materials, practice excessively and "believe" in the dogma. Kind of seals you into the equation when taken in total.

In my thirty years of practice I looked long and hard for people who lived up to Bodhisattva and found none. I did meet lots of "false buddha's" (i.e. people who were book smart but were, like myself, trapped in the lower six worlds and totally self absorbed in their SGI persona's. Boddhisattva is also known as "humanity" and I'm afraid the organizational practices and goals seem to be aligned in the opposite direction.

As an aside, at one leaders meeting after seeing the projections for shakubuku in a campaign one of my fellow leaders observed that if we stayed on that growth rate we would have converted every man, woman and child in the world within 20 years. Nice goal but totally unrealistic, and frankly stupid. No one was encouraged at that meeting, just annoyed. And as a commentary on the leadership, pushing out something like that to the members was unmerciful and unenlightened. Just setting everyone up for disappointment and guilt (i.e. those worlds of jigoku and chikushou)

Wakatta

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wakatta1
@nichijew

Don't forget Rapture, the big pay-off for Hunger!! As most of those reading here, the lower six worlds are tightly chained together and those chains are what really enslaves people to a group like the SGI cult. If you score big in one world and you wind up being dragged through the other five. Like winning at the casino, you keep going back for the rush. Successfully shakubuku someone and you go looking for two more. Never time to raise those people who you've shakubuku because the "organizational tempo" was just too high.

I also think this makes a negative case for Shomon and Engaku (Learning and absorbtion) since all of the SGI/NSA literature is wrapped around the Shin-gyo-gaku mindset (faith, practice, study) in which you are strongly encouraged to buy study materials, practice excessively and "believe" in the dogma. Kind of seals you into the equation when taken in total.

In my thirty years of practice I looked long and hard for people who lived up to Bodhisattva and found none. I did meet lots of "false buddha's" (i.e. people who were book smart but were, like myself, trapped in the lower six worlds and totally self absorbed in their SGI persona's. Boddhisattva is also known as "humanity" and I'm afraid the organizational practices and goals seem to be aligned in the opposite direction.

As an aside, at one leaders meeting after seeing the projections for shakubuku in a campaign one of my fellow leaders observed that if we stayed on that growth rate we would have converted every man, woman and child in the world within 20 years. Nice goal but totally unrealistic, and frankly stupid. No one was encouraged at that meeting, just annoyed. And as a commentary on the leadership, pushing out something like that to the members was unmerciful and unenlightened. Just setting everyone up for disappointment and guilt (i.e. those worlds of jigoku and chikushou)

Wakatta

Daer Wakatta;

Excellent observations.

Nichijew

I think "faith, practice, and study" is a pretty good concept in my opinion. Growing up as a Hindu, my family did lots of faith and practice, but very little study. As a result, we never really knew what we were doing.

However, I think you hit it on the head, wakatta1. The question comes down to what kind of study, what kind of faith, and what kind of practice is involved.

I was the only one in my group that read the whole Lotus Sutra and even can quote parts of it with my own interpretation. The other members never bothered to open that book. Why? Because they want to get the books on what Ikea thinks about the sutra. Not what is actually written on the sutra, not even what certain passages might possibly mean in different context. It's Ikea's way, and that's it!

Practice is another thing. Not only is the practice on the better car or the trophy spouse, but also chanting with the mentality as if you are a rabbit chasing a carrot on a stick. In my talks with my SGI "buddies", everytime I ask them why my practice isn't working, they say that I'm not chanting it the right way (I swear the way to chant is just by saying Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo). Furthermore, the best experiences that someone gives on the podium includes a 3-6 hour chanting session.

As for faith, I find this interesting. I would like to know everyone else's point of view here. When I first started, I read the book, "Buddha in your Mirror" and it said to just chant and things will work out. After getting into the SGI, years later when I asked a few of my friends why my practice isn't working, they simply said, "Because you don't have faith in the gohonzon." That did surprise me, since I did sit in front of it, did gongyo and chanted the daimoku for a good 30 mins each time. If I didn't have faith, why would I do morning gongyo instead of sleeping in on Saturday mornings? Secondly, wasn't the gohonzon supposed to provide that proof to that faith?

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wakatta1

Just to stir some further discussion, onething that repeatedly bothered me a lot when I practiced was the loneliness. Sure I was surrounded by members who were chanting intentedly to their "happiness machines" for their "heart's desire", but aside for administrative or faith-based activities, there was very little in the way of "fellowship". Frankly, throughout my long practice there were maybe two people who showed what I perceived as genuine concern, the rest of the folks were too intent on either "improving their practice", doing onshitsu to other members or trying to emulate some sort of "shin'ichi yamamoto" type of persona.

If you said "lets be real here..." folks would either retreat behind their masks, or throw up an ink-cloud of quotations from "sensei", the world tribune or the seikyo times. The only time you could depend upon folks to be seeking you out was when there was some sort of movement or to collect zaimu or other money sources.


Can anyone relate to that?

Wakatta1

It's true, but I think most members really would like to develop close relationships/friendships with other members. A few years ago a woman moved to my area. We hit it off. She had a daughter the same age as mine, and they went to the same elementary school and took the same ballet and swimming lessons, and had play dates. So I saw this woman a lot, also at SGI activities all the time. Then, in SGI's great wisdom, the area was split in two, and all of a sudden we were in different areas, and seldom saw each other. It was sad! I ran into the woman several months later and she said the split had been very hard on her daughter. Perhaps SGI does this on purpose. In legitimate religions, you can practice when and where you want. If you don't like one group, you join another--it's no problem. But in SGI, you're told where and when you need to go to meetings, and are looked down upon if you protest. Another experience I had regarding this happened many years ago. My husband was the district leader of a great district, and I was a member of that district. The members were all from another country, all except us. They had strong cultural ties and were a very close-knit group. They all saw each other all the time outside of SGI. My family also became very close to these people, and we were included in their parties, weddings, etc. The district was very active and did tons of shakabuku (this was NSA). Several years passed and the district grew huge, all still with people of this culture. Then, SGI was very brilliant. It split the district apart and put everyone all over the place. Instead of keeping it together and spliting it into a chapter, the members were all put in different districts, chapters, even areas. We had no say in the matter. I was furious, but told that that was how it was going to be and if I didn't like it it was too bad. It still makes me mad! Of course, it was bad for SGI--the shakabuku stopped and new members were lost. I cannot imagine something like that happening in anything but a cult.

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tsukimoto
The practice itself, as promoted by SGI, seems inherently self-centered and materialistic -- it's you, your desires, your Gohonzon, and your "relationship" with Sensei. <b><i>You're encouraged to be devoted to the organization rather than other individual members.</b></i>

I think this has come up in earlier pages on the forum, but this last line makes me think of the former Soviet Union. The needs of the state came before any individual. That led to some horrifying practices in that country in the name of "communism" and "the state". And the assertion that the heavy-handed central-control government would fall away and leave an environment where everyone joyfully shares everything together turned out to be a load of crap. North Korea is supposedly following the same plan; I don't think that Kim Jong-Il is planning to abdicate his position any time soon. The SGI is running the organization with that same thought - that the organization comes first, and its health and welfare takes precedence over that of any individual member.

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Nichijew
Dear Tsukimoto:

"For instance, some say, "You can overcome your problems if you do shakubuku, if you promote Seikyo Shimbun you can be happy. You can be happy if you try to do more zaimu." This is a life condition of hunger. You are always expecting something in return. If you don't overcome your problem you will resent having made the effort. This is different from the life condition of Bodhisattva. The Daishonin states: "Self and others rejoice together."(Lisa Jones).

The World of Hunger is the second lowest of the Lower Worlds (most base human condition).

This reminds me of the time when I told a leader "But I'm happy now with where I am." Silly me! I got a lecture on how that kind of attitude was going to leave me with a small, narrow life. Instead, I should have great dreams and practice harder to fulfill them.

It's exactly as Nichijew said -- SGI NEEDS members to have that life condition of hunger, where you are just craving and longing for something that is difficult to attain. Even the most junior advertising copywriters know, they can sell more to people who are dissatisfied with their lives and themselves.

Wakatta also hit the nail on the head with the rapture and the casinos. You chant and devote yourself to SGI because you want something. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't get it, as Nichijew says, you resent the effort. You bounce back into the world of hell, or hunger. If you do get it, you feel that rapture, but how long does it really last? The thrill wears off, you're bored, you want something else and you start to chant for it, and the cycle begins again.

When does a person just get to relax and appreciate being where they are? Never! You've always got to be striving for something. And there you are, hooked into the world of hunger, endless longing, with occasional bounces into rapture, hell, hunger and anger. A real roller coaster...that goes mostly down.

I remember discussing gambling in a college psych course. A student asked why people can get so addicted to gambling, when most of the time, they lose. Our professor referred us to studies on intermittent reinforcement. If the rat can get a food pellet every time it presses a lever, the rat becomes bored. It eats its fill and then goes on to play or sleep. It's different if the food pellet only comes occasionally. The rat anxiously pressses the lever all the time, in the hope of getting something THIS TIME.

The professor said that this dynamic hooks gamblers into continuing to gamble -- and people to stay in relationships where the other person only treats them well some of the time. Unpredictable reinforcement works better than constant reinforcement, according to the studies.

I can't help thinking that this also applies to SGI practice. Occasionally, you chant for something and it happens -- you start getting the idea that if you just chant enough, you can make what you want happen again.

It's a bit depressing, thinking that my time in SGI gave me the mentality of a lab rat pushing a lever, in the hopes of getting some food!

Hi All,
Just thought I'd chime in. I recently passed my one year anniversary of quitting the practice. Since then, I got a great job that I love, and I enjoy life so much more. I don't fret about what I didn't do for the organization. I don't suffer from IBS anymore and my skin has cleared up. I am less anxious and angry, and I have time for things that need doing, like my garden. I've also saved money on not purchasing another round of gakkai pubs., zaimu, and gas to get everywhere.

As I have had time, I've also read some books about buddhism, very basic, introductory books. It seems that SGI's, promise of immediate results, whether it is enlightment or actual proof does nothing but appeal to the hunger nature, and reciprocate that cycle over and over again. My husband says we chant Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, but what we mean is, "I want that, I want that, I want that." The funny thing is, that once I had achieved all that I wanted, I found it hard to chant. I felt empty, and Ikeda's encouragement, seemed meaningless. I tried to conjure up more "things to chant about, people, health etc, but it took a lot of effort, and discipline to do so. Also, It became increasingly difficult to encourage people to join, or to attend a meeting if they didn't want to. I just had nothing left to offer. My last daimoku campaign was to find out the "truth" regarding the priesthood issue, soka spirit. As a result, I found out the truth, which led me here, and ultimately happier.

I remember once, while I was practicing, thinking: "What remarkable thing have I achieved, that the normal average person, with the same opportunities I have had, hasn't achieved. Nothing, nothing at all. And, they, these normal average people, achieved it, if not more, without chanting. Oh yes, there is the arguement, that they are not as happy as we of the SGI, but, I can't prove that. That is just judgemental nonsense. As a matter of fact, there were a lot of SGI members out that with really bad problems; unhappy disfunctional families, and heavy financial difficulties. I would see their smiling faces at meetings, and then they would talk about their issuses, or not, because they were too embarrased. My friend, who also stopped practicing, would say that the meetings were nothing more than a diversion from their difficulties; i.e. a wife and husband would have an arguement; she would leave for a meeting; chant; come home and presto; the husband would be calm and the problem blow over. Would it have occured anyway, say if the wife went to the movies, and given herself and said husband some time and space. Probably.

On another note, in the past, I had posted about the MD district leader that was so abusive. Well, he recently found out that I no longer practice and he left this long message on my voice mail apologizing for his actions saying that he hoped that he had not done anything to discourage my practice! I had to laugh. Not only was that an admission of guilt, but of ego too. No, I had to thank the organization for promoting him as one of the many varied reasons I left, not just his improper and abusive self.

As far as friendships go, eveything posted so far is dead on. As an example; I had a friend in the organization, same age as me, with two children about the same age as my daughter, one younger,one older. She was my leader in NYC, then I moved and shortly after she moved too, not so far away. It was easy to see her and her husband and kids, and when the kids weren't behaving badly, we had fun. We didn't talk too much SGI, as her husband wasn't practicing, and we had a lot of common ground. She was also a higher up leader in the organization than I was, although, in another area.
Then the organization did a classic reorganization, and I was made a region leader in her area. As you may know, protocol is to have members to call leaders to invite them as central figures for their meetings. One would think that she would invite me to her districts to meet the members. Not at all. She never called again. I was invited here, there and everywhere, but not to her districts. I felt rather akward, and didn't quite know what to do. Shortly after, I quit, and I purposfully refrained from calling SGI members so I could detox in peace.

As you know, it's been a year that I've been to any meetings and that includes my daughter, who was going to the elementary school division monthly meetings. So, you can imagine my shock when I got a call out of the blue from my friend, not to say hi, but to encourage my daughter to perform in a big meeting coming up in a week's time.
All I could think is that somewhere in her twisted mind she thought it would be a "benefit" for her to reach out and make that call, and a benefit for my daughter as well. In contrast, my daughter responded to me by saying, "like that will ever happen".

It just goes to show what everyone is saying about the meaning of friendship in the organization. It only exists within the context of the organization. I highly doubt that I can ever be friends with this woman again, unless I feel that she can come around and allow alternative views.