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Findingmywaytoday

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wakatta1

As a Chapter Chief I enshrined and unenshrined Gohonzons, and the rules were to keep it upright when you rolled it up, don't breathe on it when you do, and place it in it's envelope and perhaps even wrap the package in a scarf against the possibility of it being handled by soiled hands. That is what I did with my big Gohonzon when I returned it to the temple near Chicago. That was that.

Wakatta1

Thank you Wakatta for this tip. Is there any other protocol in regards to storing a Gohonzon, and also taking it down?

@findingmywaytoday

If I were a SGI/NSA member today and had been asked to take down a Gohonzon, here is what I would do.

1. Ensure the altar was clean (or clean it if needed).
2. Do SanSho.
3. Place a scrap of paper between my lips to keep from breathing on the Gohonzon, the japanese suggest using a shikimi leaf but I'm assuming this isn't available.
4. Starting at the bottom of the gohonzon I would roll it upwards, again, keeping from breathing on it.
5. Once rolled up I would unhook it, tie the string around it to ensure it doesn't unwind and place it in the envelope.
6. Depending upon how much respect you'd wish to show, you could set it on the ledge in the gohonzon area and do another sansho.
7. Take an open scarf and place it inside and tie the ends together. (I used to have a half dozen of the memorial scarf's from my SGI days in Japan, I guess you could use a handkerchief.

I would then probably put the rolled up gohonzon in one of the butsudan drawers until I was ready to take it back. Once I had finally decided that was what I intended to do, I would take the gohonzon itself to the location to give it back. (kaikan? Temple? Dunno nowadays. I took mine back to the Temple.)

Question: Why show so much respect?
Answer: More for your sake than for politeness sake. You entered the faith in hopes of good things. The Gohonzon itself was a symbol that represented those positive things and enlightenment itself. The SGI/NSA organization is what changed into the thing it is today. Your Gohonzon didn't cause that. The goal is to part company in a respectful way since ultimately you will always wish to preserve your self-esteem and to preserve your life-condition. This provides that basis. Also, should anyone criticize you for taking down your gohonzon you would always be able to respond with a clear conscience and say "I showed it all necessary respect in doing so".

Hope that helps.

Wakatta1

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Rothaus
Hi Nichijew,

I do understand where you are coming (.... snip ....)
Having said that I find it hard to declare any 'right' or 'wrong' when in comes to matters of religion to the extend that if religious matters fail to meet standards of the secular world (i.e. laws, human rights, physiological and mental well-being ) then those issues become a 'wrong'.

Not to be flippant here, but if you Google the phrase: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic" you'll find an excerpt college test answer to a physics class that is quite funny. Of particular interest is one of the lines of reasoning which goes (by my recollection):

"There is more than one form of religion in the world, and each religion believes that if you don't belong to it you will go to hell, therefore, all people are going to hell - which implies that hell will either expand (and remain cool - endothermic) or remain the same size causing it to emit heat - exothermic (and also coincendntally causing "all hell to break loose")"

I recommend reading this since ironically, it has several "truths" in it.

Wakatta1

Hi Nichijew,

I just want to give a little of my input here. I also think you have good intentions, but I agree with Rothaus that using religious arugments is a gray area. First of all, not everyone, especially in this forum, believes in Nichiren Buddhism in any form. Another thing here, and obviously why there are arguments between all Nichiren schools, is that no can quite agree what was Nichiren's true intent. I remember long time ago you sent me a link on what scholars find are authentic Gosho of Nichiren and which ones aren't (and thank you again, btw). If the person in SGI really does believe in SGI, that person will put more stock what s/he thinks is the true writings and the true teachings of the Lotus Sutra.

For example, let's say I'm a staunch SGI supporter and you are going to argue against my views. The argument can go like this:

NJ: DrJesusEsq, you are incorrect, according the Gosho X, the Daishonin states . . . .

DrJ: I disagree, Nichijew. According to Gosho D, the Daishonin wrote . . .

NJ: Well, you know that Gosho is deemed inauthentic by this scholar, and that one as well.

DrJ: Well that's because they haven't understood the Mystic Law and the importance of Mentor and Disciple. They have the wrong mentor and the whole world is doing what it can to disprove and persecute our teachings because we help so many people and so on and so forth blah blah blah . . . (you get the idea)

Neither one of us would stop since neither one of us would change. It's like a Muslim cleric going up to a Hindu priest and using the Koran to disprove Hinduism. If the Hindu priest gave the Koran any credence, he would not be a Hindu in the first place.

It'd be better off just making points based on common sense. Like how many leaders like to drop the term Lotus sutra all the time, yet very few actually cracked it open and bothered to read it. For that matter, the only "Lotus Sutra" they read is the Lotus Sutra according to Hentai Ikea.

Another point to look at, in order to join the Gajokai in Japan, the YMD has to read all of the Human Revolution and the New Human Revolution. No mention of the Lotus Sutra, not even a mention of the SGI-based Gosho. To me, that's like saying if I want to be a deacon of a Southern Baptist church, reading something from Pat Robertson has more precedence than reading the Bible itself.

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Findingmywaytoday
I joined SGI way after the SGI split from the temple. I am wondering if anyone can tell me if there is any focus on shakabuku, or is this an Ikeda created idea. Thanks.

@Findingmywaytoday

As long as I'm logged in I might as well respond to your other question too:

As I recall my studies and observation, the act of shakubuku essentially responds to the almost-universal attitude that it is the responsibility of every Boddhisattva to strive to relieve the sufferings of his/her fellow man through enabling them to hear and learn the law.

Using Shakyamuni as an example, he started his search for enlightenment upon recognizing the suffering of those around him and wondering what could be done to prevent the suffering (a much longer story, better told by others than I).

SGI/NSA adapted that in a much more militant way, and in the post-war days, there was huge competition between various japanese religions. Shakubuku essentially means something like "break and subjugate" and I recall reading stories of families in Japan discarding all family religious articles (such as the traditional shinto tablets that had been handed down through generations.) The point being that there was only room for one religious devotion once you'd become a member.

As they say, a rose by any other color is still a rose, and every religion I've ever had contact with had one sort or another of admonition to "spread the teaching". Some are more aggressive than others....


Wakatta1

To go off on another tangent -- an interesting post from SokaGakkaiUnofficial, message 99485:

----------------Beginning of Quote----------------------------------------------------------

Scientific American magazine (Oct.2004) published an article : Heartbeat Poetry
[www.scientificamerican.com] which
described the physiological effect of rhythmic chanting.

The study focused on the efficiency of Hexametric or Six-beat rhythm chanting
[such as in :

NAM(1) MYO(2) HO(3) REN(4) GE(5) KYO(6)], which is 6 beat or 6 units per line].

The study did not specifically analyse the rhythm of the daimoku itself, which
researchers may have not heard about, but examined old Greek poetry recitation,
such as in Homer's Odyssey, which used the same 6-beat rhythm.

The reason why 6-beat (or Hexameter) poetry was chosen for study of its effects
was the "historical accounts of Greek choruses and audiences gathering to recite
more than 10,000 lines of hexameter without pausing. The verse must have
produced feel-good effects". The article suggested that this type of hexametric
recitation [as in the daimoku] harmonised two physiological rhythms: breathing
and heart beat. When these two physiological waves of oxygen intake and blood
pressure get synchronised, one feels increased energy:

Cardiovascular and respiratory responses are not normally in sync. Rhythmic
fluctuations in blood pressure take place naturally in 10-second-long cycles
known as Mayer waves, whereas spontaneous breathing normally occurs at a rate of
approximately 15 breaths per minute.

Dirk Cysarz of the Herdecke Community Hospital and Institute of Mathematics at
the University of Witten/ Herdecke wanted to explore the connection between
these oscillating mechanisms, which are known to couple weakly at times. The
type of poetry was a key aspect of the study. Cysarz and his colleagues
specifically used Homer's Odyssey translated into German, which maintains the
original hexametric pace of the verse--that is, six meters, or rhythmic units,
per line.

The article also mentions the opinion of a specialist from Harvard Medical
School : He postulates that something inherent in our physiology may have
enabled this pattern of poetry to take shape.

Interestingly, the study compares mantra chanting with silent meditation (or
controlled breathing) and finds that mantra chanting is more effective in
harmonising physiological rhythms and : Also, subjects found poetry reading
stimulating but controlled breathing boring.

Full article :[www.scientificamerican.com]
------------------------------End of Quote------------------------------------------------

Now, I've felt for a long time that chanting somehow balances the brain and nervous system. If I'm tired and depressed, chanting gives me energy. But on the other hand, if I'm angry or agitated, chanting is calming. In the early years of my practice, I thought that it was Nam myoho renge kyo, and the Mystic Law itself. Now, I wonder if chanting anything with a similar rhythm would have the same results.

I think that Toda and Ikeda, in the 1950's, rather exploited the physical effects of chanting. Members felt good because their breathing and heartbeat were in sync -- and SGI leaders convinced them that these good feelings were because of SGI!

While I think chanting is a good thing, even good things can be overdone, and SGI has encouraged people to overdo chanting. Early in this thread, Anticult and I both wrote about friends of ours who suffered from anxiety and chanted obsessively, in all sorts of situations, to deal with the anxiety. They'd be in some social situation and they'd have to go in another room and chant.

You might say, "Well, isn't it better that they chant a lot -- rather than do something like self-medicate the anxiety with alcohol or drugs? Yes and no. Chanting is certainly better for your liver, but for your life?

The trouble is, if you've chanted and been around SGI for awhile -- you've taken in toxic ideas along with some good ideas and practices.

I think that for some people chanting becomes a band-aid -- taking the edge off of the person's discomfort just enough that he or she is not uncomfortable enough to seek real help for the anxiety. They follow their leaders' guidance -- chanting more and doing more for SGI is supposed to make them feel better -- gradually it gets to the point where SGI has become their whole life. Maybe the person is not that happy chanting and doing SGI activities 24/7 -- but they've done it so long it's hard to imagine living any other way. Or they're terrified that all hell will break loose if they cut back at all.


Also, what of the cost to the person's relationships? It's hard to have an alcoholic as a parent, husband, wife, or friend because the alcoholic's total focus is alcohol. They're either drunk, recovering from a hangover, out drinking, or thinking about their next drink.

A hardcore SGI member can be either chanting obsessively, at SGI activities, or doing shakabuku, leaving them with little time and attention for children, spouse, nonSGI friends. Mentally and often physically, they are just not there for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2010 10:03AM by tsukimoto.

tsukimoto, I think this is very interesting. I never had heard about 6-beat rhythm chanting as being physiologically effective in increasing/improving cardiovascular and respiratory responses, etc., but I do remember reading several years ago an article in Time magazine about the physiological effects of praying. In the study described, a C-T scan of the brain was taken both during prayer and not during prayer, and there was a definite change that occurred in the brain when the individual was praying (or meditating, or chanting). Reading this article actually made me wonder if it was chanting Nam myoho renge kyo that caused "benefits" in one's life, or was it just the act of chanting, meditating, praying, etc. that made a difference.

Lately, I have been thinking a lot about this very issue. Can we change our brains (as in the C-T scans described in Time magazine) so that they are like a person who is chanting through sensory experiences such as listening to music, looking at beautiful scenery, exercise, etc. Personally, I have been much more receptive to sensory experiences such as listening to music since leaving SGI. Or enjoying visual experiences. When I was engrossed in SGI, I could not appreciate sensory input in the same way that I do now. Perhaps the act of 6-beat chanting caused us to be focused only on SGI. Another thought: what is the difference between praying, meditating, chanting, becoming engrossed in music, doing yoga, etc. if it all causes a similiar physiological response? It is pretty ridiculous of SGI to call other types of Buddhism heretical or call those who no longer chant "enemies of SGI". We are all doing the same thing!

hello all. it's been awhile since I've responded, yet I have been keeping up with everyone's post and find them very insightful. I don't know if this is an indirect or direct path as a result of being in the SGI, but I've had a very depressive episode this past week and now realize that I may need to seek more than counseling when it comes to my mental well-being.

I'd like to use a quote from tsukimoto in which I think has resonated with my experiences as far as being a member of SGI it is: "I think that for some people chanting becomes a band-aid -- taking the edge off of the person's discomfort just enough that he or she is not uncomfortable enough to seek real help for the anxiety".

Chanting for me was definitely a band aid, whenever I would get anxious I would chant but the issue would remain the same time and time again. It was soothing for awhile to take deep and slow breaths after a half hour, yet I never took 5 minutes to address what was bothering me because it was so painful. Now as a result of not having the organization around the band aid is gone and I feel totally lost but not confused, as I am sure that I have made the right decision.


I'm still running into members left and right in the area in which I live. Sometimes on a daily basis. For the most part, the members have been very supportive, however, the district leader sent me a very condescending email when I told her I was leaving. She has since apologized, and for the first time I actually felt a sense of sadness because this time it actually felt official.

I knew this moment was coming but I did not realize how intense it would be. I swear I've been to the edge, yet I haven't fallen off of the cliff. Please continue to support me virtually and to keep me in your prayers-for those of you who still pray, and well wishes for those of you who maybe don't.

Sincerley
lthomas

Quote
tsukimoto

Now, I've felt for a long time that chanting somehow balances the brain and nervous system. If I'm tired and depressed, chanting gives me energy. But on the other hand, if I'm angry or agitated, chanting is calming. In the early years of my practice, I thought that it was Nam myoho renge kyo, and the Mystic Law itself. Now, I wonder if chanting anything with a similar rhythm would have the same results.

I think that Toda and Ikeda, in the 1950's, rather exploited the physical effects of chanting. Members felt good because their breathing and heartbeat were in sync -- and SGI leaders convinced them that these good feelings were because of SGI!

While I think chanting is a good thing, even good things can be overdone, and SGI has encouraged people to overdo chanting. Early in this thread, Anticult and I both wrote about friends of ours who suffered from anxiety and chanted obsessively, in all sorts of situations, to deal with the anxiety. They'd be in some social situation and they'd have to go in another room and chant.

You might say, "Well, isn't it better that they chant a lot -- rather than do something like self-medicate the anxiety with alcohol or drugs? Yes and no. Chanting is certainly better for your liver, but for your life?

The trouble is, if you've chanted and been around SGI for awhile -- you've taken in toxic ideas along with some good ideas and practices.

I think that for some people chanting becomes a band-aid -- taking the edge off of the person's discomfort just enough that he or she is not uncomfortable enough to seek real help for the anxiety. They follow their leaders' guidance -- chanting more and doing more for SGI is supposed to make them feel better -- gradually it gets to the point where SGI has become their whole life. Maybe the person is not that happy chanting and doing SGI activities 24/7 -- but they've done it so long it's hard to imagine living any other way. Or they're terrified that all hell will break loose if they cut back at all.

Tsukimoto: Even though I pushed myself to chant for 17 years, I never felt the same effects from it that you describe. For me, it had a magnifying effect. If I was agitated, chanting a lot made me more agitated (I remember that more).

One of the Gosho mentioned how two people were given training; one was taught to meditate and the other to focus on breathing. Neither of them were benefitting. When the teacher had the people switch to each other's method, they both found enlightenment. That rattled around in my mind for years. Sometime after I left the SGI, I took up a meditation practice, and it has worked very well for me - much better than chanting ever did.

I think I'm glad that this isn't a "one size fits all" kind of thing. I enjoy the varied and rich experiences people are relating on this forum.

Thank you Wakatta1 for responding to my questions. Thank you to everyone else for their support and interesting posts.

The idea of the 6 beat chant being calming to the body is interesting. I feel it is brainwashing on the SGI's part to say why people feel so good is because of the SGI. I have tried other forms of spirituality where chanting takes place and feel it has an effect as well. I appreciate reading everyone's contribution on this very much.

I believe praying itself, and chanting can be very useful and it doesn't have to be Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. I feel angry that the SGI also lead me to believe that my happy feelings were because of the SGI.

There was a member I knew that was not finding a job, and she decided to chant 3 hours a day instead of her one. To me, in retrospect, this is a waste of time since she probably could have spent more time looking for a position instead of chanting and shakabukuing, but this is probably a story you know from yourselves or other people.

lthomas, I applaud your courage. For me, I chanted when I felt anxious or depressed. I am only now after seeing the SGI in this new light feeling like I am ready to actually see the underlying problems I may have. I feel so free because I never thought to really seek therapy and help elsewhere because I had my Gohonzon.

Dragon14, I can relate to things being magnified by chanting. One weekend, I had a lot of fear about something. I chanted to my Gohonzon, and became even more fearful. Because of the fear, I ended up in a really bad situation, making some choices that didn't reflect my highest life condition, and I was chanting.

I have to say that when I chanted and practiced with the SGI, I felt energized, but in the back of my mind, I was also paranoid. I would read about these really drastic things happening to people in the World Tribune. I know drastic things can happen to people all the time, but there was just something about participating in the organization that made me feel that way. No matter how hard I tried, peace of mind wasn't something that I attained while in the SGI.

I consider myself spiritual, and feel some resentment to the SGI as well because there is only room in their eyes for just one religious practice.

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Findingmywaytoday

Dragon14, I can relate to things being magnified by chanting. One weekend, I had a lot of fear about something. I chanted to my Gohonzon, and became even more fearful. Because of the fear, I ended up in a really bad situation, making some choices that didn't reflect my highest life condition, and I was chanting.

I have to say that when I chanted and practiced with the SGI, I felt energized, but in the back of my mind, I was also paranoid. I would read about these really drastic things happening to people in the World Tribune. I know drastic things can happen to people all the time, but there was just something about participating in the organization that made me feel that way. No matter how hard I tried, peace of mind wasn't something that I attained while in the SGI.

I consider myself spiritual, and feel some resentment to the SGI as well because there is only room in their eyes for just one religious practice.

Feelings of fear that I felt when I was with SGI were magnified also. I was always afraid that if I didn't practice hard enough, I would be doomed. Since I have left SGI, I have gained peace of mind, and I am more accepting of the ups and downs of life.