Quote
quiet one
15) Been nicer to people I meet without always thinking about shakabuku or whether or not they might like to chant. Being a member of SGI affects all your relationships with people you see everyday, both members and non-members, as well as with strangers that you meet.

That's a very good point. I knew a lady who had taken classes at a local college solely for the purpose of meeting people to shakabuku. And she succeeded - this guy she met there joined the SGI and received a gohonzon. I thought, why can't you just take classes for the purpose of educating yourself? Or, how about meeting people just because you want to be their friend, with no ulterior motive?

Quote
SGBye
That's a very good point. I knew a lady who had taken classes at a local college solely for the purpose of meeting people to shakabuku. And she succeeded - this guy she met there joined the SGI and received a gohonzon. I thought, why can't you just take classes for the purpose of educating yourself? Or, how about meeting people just because you want to be their friend, with no ulterior motive?

It's really true. Since I do not have the cloud of SGI hanging over my head, I have noticed how much nicer I am and how much better I communicate with people that I meet. One day, I had ordered some take-out food and I was waiting for it to be ready. The guy behind the counter started up a conversation with me. We had a very nice chat for a few minutes. It really struck me how since I had left SGI things seemed so different. In the past, I would think about shakabuku in a situation like that. SGI members are very arrogant, thinking that their way is the best and the only way to "true happiness"!

Alright everyone! Let's keep a good thing going!

I just want to say that I am very happy everyone is contributing an experience of life after SGI. It is my sincere hope that people out there can realize that not only that life is fine once you leave an organization like SGI, but it get better.

Keep it up! I am personally happy to read all this.

Joined the Gakkai in the late 60's in Japan while with the Military. At the same time met my wife and learned to speak passable Japanese. Returned to the US in the early 70's and began doing activities with the Chicago Kaikan group. Spent time as a Hancho, a District chief and finally as a chapter chief spread across more than 20 years.

I began to become disenchanted with NSA in the 70's when they began dropping the pretense of wanting american leaders and instead began appointing YMD and MD who for all intents and purposes were hand-picked either in the Hombu or by George and his Ilk out in santa monica. As things developed I saw a lot of money being spent on the leadership and very little (none?) being redirected to the members. Lots of japanese friction with american members who didn't understand nor were inclined to jump through hoops for the sake of being impressive to earn pictures in the World tribune.

Finally, when the schism broke out between the temple and NSA I realized that NSA didn't care the tiniest bit about the members or the tenets of the practice. It was all about the money and retaining control over the membership. I went taitan.

After a couple attempted restarts I finally decided that what was bothering me was part of the "good" part of Buddhism that I had gained in my practice, and that the "bad" bart was the two faced, lying upper leadership. That ended it there.

I returned my big gohonzon to the temple (thank you very much), sold my big Butsudan and was done with it.

Around the same time my Japanese wife took up with a twenty-something kid she had met and was doing drugs with. Sayonara to her after two years of painful divorce.

Fifteen years later I have to say that my life is light years ahead of where I was back then. I have purpose to my life, a fine, loyal and loving wife, a dozen grand children, finished my education and living in a splendid big house in peace and tranquility.

Also, I reestablished my relationship with Jesus and even though I tend to relate things through a slightly buddhist filter, I am spiritually at ease. I am not driven to chant morning, noon and night for some "movement" due to some admonishment by rijicho. I know where my church donations go and they certainly don't go to some little fat guy in japan to use to pay off the families of the women he gropes.

So, In general, things are just fine. My advice to anyone thinking of getting out of NSA/Gakkai - Just do it! Get away from it! These days you can gain more buddhist benefit by playing HALO3 than by pouring your money, your life, your relationships and your hopes into the black hole known as NICHIREN SHOSHU / SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL (And my apologies to Nichiren Shonin for using his name in the same sentence as the Gakkai, he passed them a philosophy of merit, the gakkai twisted it beyond recognition)

Wakatta1 ("I understand")

PS - doing the right thing for yourself often is not easy nor easily put behind you. Cults impact a person on many levels so getting clear of them takes a long time if you've had major involvement. Nevertheless, if a person strongly feels that "something is definitely wrong", it makes a lot of sense not to dismiss that and instead try to understand it and find out what is triggering it. As a leader I often found myself trying to be "self consistent" - i.e. "everyone expects me to do such and such". This not only drives you further into error, but it also creates an incredible level of ambivalence. Some are lucky and have a crisis which brings them eye to eye with the conflict, others just soldier on and months turn into years and eventually your life has been stolen away from you.

I think in one of the Gosho's Nichiren quotes a proverb to the effect of "in righteous times one should strive to practice the just law, and in evil times one should use their own skin as paper and their bones as brushes to inscribe the law." NSA/SGI has become what it is because of the Karma of the people inside it.

In the case of SGI/NSA, if the leadership had truly been 'enlightened' they would have seen and acted on the problems. Many upper leaders would complain to me about such and such, but they still remained and continued carrying on the things even they disagreed with. For the Japanese leaders they just sighed and said "muzukashii da na!" ("hmm - it's difficult"). For the american leaders they would just switch gears, reach back to their YMD/YWD training and glaze over. In all cases, nobody had the backbone to take a stand because they knew that once they did they would lose their (honored?) position, and certainly their peers would happily throw them under the bus just to create 'more room at the top'.

God I'm glad I left...

Oh, also, Hi there Tsukimoto and others. i'm still out here reading :^)

@wakkata1 I agree doing the right thing for is never easy, but it's even harder when you continue to do the wrong thing. There is that song that pops up in my head, "I can see clearly now the rain is gone". That is how I feel as a result of leaving the SGI. At times I feel angry because I was sold a dream. The person who I am most angry at is my "sponsor" because she knew what was going on, yet she chose not to tell me and was in so much of a hurry for me to get my Gohonzan. Looking back on it now I should have known something was up every time she complained about something that the organization did. At one point in time (this is right before I knew how much Ikeda was pushed down people's minds) she even refused to go to World Peace Gongyo, for awhile boycotting this certain activity for at least 5 months. I sincerely thought that my sponsor had my interest at heart, so much so, that I became defensive every time someone had something negative to say about her. In spite of all of this I began to see how manipulative my "sponsor" was. On the one hand she never agreed with the whole Ikeda thing, yet whenever I expressed an interest in leaving she would always use some "fancy" kind of saying from one of those self-help books or Oprah (don't get me wrong I am an Oprah fan) to get me to say. I should also like to say that there was an "soap opera" effect that I never felt comfortable with while I was in the organization, because some of the young women who were involved with men who broke their hearts would always cry profusely, and then claim that it was meant for them to struggle because "Sensei" did to. Eventually I to suffered from the "Soap Opera" effect just as the young women did. I never called out for "Sensei", yet I was very melodramatic. It wasn't fun at all. As a matter of fact it was torture and I ended up "pulling out my hair" (I have a bald spot which is just now filling up after 3 years, at one point I had dropped down to 108lbs). This trauma resulted in an emotionally-abused relationship with a member-If you read some of my earlier post you will know what I am talking about. To make matters worse I was often told that this happened because it was my destiny to help out another YWD who would someday go through the same situation as I. That was a low point in my life. It was so low that I was wearing size 1 jeans and my mother was horrified by how much weight I had lost. I've never really told. Furthermore, my so-called sponsor whom, I almost considered to be like family at one point, went behind my back after warning me about this guy, and "got his side of the story", despite the fact that 9 months had past since this incident had happened. Her excuse for doing this was because I went over a members house and chanted with a member whom she had conflict with. That was the lowest point in my life. It's been 3 years since that happened and although I've healed a lot, that is something that will always stay with me for the rest of my life. It also taught me to look within myself and to think of times that I too mistreated someone and made them feel like poop as well.

@lthomas - Based upon what I saw during my tenure with the "cult", your story isn't that unique. The YWD and YMD seemed to be the sandbox where the leaders enjoyed playing mind games. Of course the drama levels depended upon the individuals,

I recall as a district chief, my chikutan (Japanese WD district chief) just loved to meddle in the lives of the other women. Some dropped out, some got into her face (heh! causing them to need "guidance") and others just continued to practice, hating every minute, and seething with annoyance at the WD member.

In Chicago at least, once somebody was shakubuku'ed they were more or less conquered territory, and aside from pestering them for world tribune and seikyo times money, and zaimu, they were pretty much forgotten about, left on their own to figure out what came next. Because most were rushed to get their gohonzon and usually it was enshrined for them by their 'sponsor' and others from the district or han, there wasn't much more growth beyond the initial 'lessons'. That means that the member just stagnated at about one to two months in their 'journey', which is why many of the 'mature members' lived and operated in such a 'worldly' way.

Because of the incredible pressure for shakubuku and "the numbers", new shakubuku's usually were neglected. This problem was usually relegated to the status that member so-and-so needed a "home-vee" (home visitation).

To the Japanese members, home visitations were more like home invasions, and often it sounded like they did it for the sake of seeing what sort of "stuff" the member had in their home, to compare how affluent they were. They did it under the guise of wanting to 'encourage' the member but their methods were very heavy-handed. Hence, new members often simply drifted away. For the american members it was just another activity. The script was pretty much the same, one or two members showed up unannounced, found the members gohonzon and cleaned the altar, did three daimoku, 'encouraged' them, and then left. The member usually felt more like they had been raped than encouraged based on what feedback I was hearing. Many complaints against the chikutan and when those complaints were elevated to the chapter/hombu level, they didn't have enough backbone to do anything other than to make some 'mystical' comments to avoid getting involved.

To get back to your point, your 'sponsor' was doing what everyone else was doing. You were conquered territory and she really only was concerned about holding the 'status quo' and since you were 'HER SHAKUBUKU' she probably didn't want to lose face by having you 'slip away'. Nevertheless, it sounds as if she was far from capable to provide you with any support or assistance in growth, she may have even been hoping you'd obtain enlightenment and then reach over and save her! <smile>

Looking back, NSA/SGI members in general were messed up, which is why they were practicing in the first place - however the organization wasn't oriented towards helping the member, it was oriented towards helping the organization. Kind of like building the pyramids for king huff-n-puff. Lots of work to be done, lots of interaction while it was going on, but very little in the way of enriching the worker's life (since after all, the pyramid is being built for the king - who is the only one who counts).

Sorry to let my sarcasm leak through...

Wakatta1

@lthomas, Don't worry you'll pull through. Now that you're out, things will get better.

As Wakatta1 says, it's all a numbers game. Part of it also is the lack of understanding of Buddhism in general, not just Nichiren's. If you study all other forms of Buddhism, and other religions for that matter, all of them place a heavy emphasis on being responsible in your actions. You might have the best religion in the world, but it doesn't mean you can go out and mess someone elses' life in the name of Buddha, God, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That would question the integrity of the philosophy.

This is why we are here.

I remember when I was being pressured to shakubuku people, I would tell that person, "I don't have a good career. I am still trying to get over my past relationship. I am still trying to control my anger [unbeknownst to both of us, mostly stemming from the SGI]. And you expect me to shakubuku someone??"

Perhaps that is the case with your sponsor. She had way too many issues to deal with, but she decided to shakubuku you instead. Who knows if you were the first shakubuku, who knows if you are the last? At least you leaving the organization, you are stopping the cycle. Imagine if are feeling worse than her and still getting someone else to hop on the crazy train?

That was the main reason I never shakubuku anyone. That, and if I wanted to leave, it would be irresponsible on my part to get someone to invite more trouble in their life.

When I was in, I was told that if I shakabuku'd more people, my own life would improve. I'd change my own karma -- which seems like a rather selfish reason to do it! At the time, I would think, "But what if being in SGI is not in the other person's best interest?" (Well, it wasn't in mine either, but I wasn't ready to think about that then.)

Wakatta1, good to hear from you!

Yahoo's SokaGakkaiUnofficial group has been discussing some of the issues that Wakatta has raised -- the SGI corporation, finances, power, and who will take over after Ikeda's death.

[groups.yahoo.com]

-----------------------Beginning of Quote------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: SGI-USA's subservience to Japan



--- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, queequeg1812 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
> Money.
>
> When SGI-USA can stand on its own financially, SG in Japan will lose its
influence.
>
> When SGI-USA is freed up financially, SGI-USA will have more say in the
choosing of leadership and leadership appointments won't be dependent on loyalty
to Japan but rather the interests of the membership.

My Headquarters leader once announced at KRG that our area
was not donating enough money to support our own community
center so we were being subsidised from above. He even
quantified our expenses and how much we collected.

People were genuinely concerned to hear that. We all started
putting more money in the pot. As time went on people would
ask him at meetings how we were doing. He would make some
general comments about how we were doing better and change
the subject. We were all expecting that he would announce
that we were now self supporting or better. He never said
another word about it.

We speculated that he stepped out of line when he talked
about money outside of the convention of asking for more.
And when his comments got back to his bosses he was told
not to do it again. It's a pity because people would dig
deep if they were supporting their own CC, just like
every little Church in America.

My guess is that they are scared stiff of individual areas
being self-sufficient and not dependent on the pyramid.
They don't want local areas to even know about those
numbers. That same principle scales up to the national
level.

You say SGI-USA could become more responsive to the needs
of the local membership if it was financially independent.
I think Japan will fight hard to stop that happening. That
is why they won't let the local membership even know how
much is donated, how much comes from Japan or goes to
Japan, what the expenses are , etc. They want to keep the
finances inextricably entwined and controlled from the
top.

Just as an aside, although info about money was kept tightly
under wraps the Japanese WD knew every detail. They even
knew how much each individual gave, which was supposed to
be confidential. When I was a district leader WD's used to
collar me to complain when some non-Japanese member cut
their level of contributions.

Mick
---------------------------End of Quote----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yup. Money, power, secrecy, and that pyramid structure -- SGI needs more people on the bottom of the pyramid to support the top.

Item six of SGI's charter, by the way, says this: (from the SGI-USA website)

"6. SGI shall respect the independence and autonomy of its constituent organizations in accordance with the conditions prevailing in each country."

So, where is SGI-USA's independence and autonomy?

----------------Quote, Message #99089, SokaGakkaiUnofficial-----------------------------------------------

Re: SGI-USA's subservience to Japan
You unwittingly zero in on a critical point here, Don. While the publications
and Mr. Ikeda's ghost writers continue to churn out words that sound nice,
people (some of them, anyway) read them and believe them and don't look past
them to the reality of what your organization actually is.

Andy

> --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <bholly72@> wrote:
> >
> > The sad thing is that even the top American born leaders accept the
superiority of the Japanese in the practice of Buddhism. A couple of years ago,
in the course of a long conversation, an SGI-USA vice-general director, one of
the most liberal minded, by the way, said to me that he thought we in the US
still had not grasped the true spirituality of the SG in Japan. There was so
much else going on in the conversation that it took me a few hours to realize
that this was the most depressing I'd heard. Our spirituality must be
second-rate. And, boy, we must be dumb. If, after 50 years, with the tireless
work of so many wonderful pioneer members, we still haven't gotten it, well... .
It didn't occur to him, apparently, that maybe we ought to just work on
developing our own SGI-USA spirituality.
> >
> > I do know that Danny Nagashima at first balked at becoming General Director,
on the grounds that an American born member should hold that post. He was talked
out of it, apparently.
> >
> > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "andyhanlen2000" <hanlen1@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Dave, I did not intend to demean any individuals. I agree with you that
most of the top leadership of the SGI-USA are entirely sincere folks, with a lot
of compassion. That said, I also believe, based on my own experience and
observation, that the paid staff at SGI Plaza and around the country are hard
line True Believers in the party line; loyal to a fault to that line. If they
were not, they would not hold those positions.
> > >
> > > I personally know (or knew) a lot of highly qualified and motivated top
American leaders, men and women, white and black, who were more open to reform,
discussion, debate and even dissent, and who are not there anymore, They have
been eased out, retired, or otherwise encouraged to quietly fade away. These
are the folks who, if given the opportunity, could have guided the SGI-USA into
becoming a mainstream American Buddhist organization. They are all now gone
from any positions of influence.
> > >
> > > The next top leader or leaders will most certainly be
Japanese, loyal and subservient to the top leadership in Japan. Watch and see.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > --- In SokaGakkaiUnofficial@yahoogroups.com, "gaydave53" <gaydave53@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "andyhanlen2000" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> The True Believer round eyes and token women, who haven proved their
loyalty and adherence to the Gakkai party line, are there for show and little
else.
-----------------------------------End of quote---------------------------------------------------------------

Americans can't grasp "the spirituality of SGI Buddhism"? Sure we can. Most of us on this forum grasp it quite well: we were to worship Ikeda, who worships power and money. Nothing complex -- or particularly Japanese -- about that.

These posts highlight a mindset that kept me in SGI far too long -- the idea that sincere members could change SGI. They can't. The organization is exactly what Ikeda and his cronies want it to be -- a moneymaking and political enterprise with a thin veneer of Buddhism on the surface to attract new members.

In SGI, there is just this huge gap between what SGI SAYS it is -- and what it really is. Maybe that accounts for the tension many of us felt while we were in SGI....we felt this truth gap.

As Wakatta said, you might as well just play video games.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2010 02:00AM by tsukimoto.