Quote
Mav
I realized as I got older and after becoming a lawyer that I was just more conservative and traditional Vietnamese than I thought and couldn't handle the ultra-liberal mindset of most of the SGI-USA members here in LA, who seem to always bring politics, activism or ethnocentric ideas into the meetings and activities. In other words, they couldn't keep politics out of the religion and that turned me off. I also couldn't handle the constant drumbeat of "mentor and disciple relationship", the youth-is-the-most-important emphasis, and the "dialogue, diversity, and tolerance" message always rammed down my throat in the organization. .

The recent posts, especially Mav's, have made me think a lot about all the theories, dogma, politics, and practices that have been piled on top of Nichiren Buddhism -- that are not Nichiren Buddhism at all. The practice of Nichiren Buddhism is really a simple affair -- chant, study the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings, reflect on your actions and thinking. Occasional meetings with others to chant, study or discuss how you practice Buddhism in everyday life. It's as if you had a lovely, traditional, well-constructed cottage -- and then someone came along and kept adding on huge, ugly, poorly constructed additions and new wings in various styles, of many different materials. Your beautiful little cottage becomes a leaky, sprawling mess and you can't even see the original cottage anymore.

So much junk has been piled on top of Nichiren Buddhism: President Ikeda worship, chanting for a new car, the SGI-Nichiren Shoshu feud, Soka Spirit, mentor-disciple, The Human Revolution, The NEW Human Revolution, Mothers' Day cards from the director of SGI-USA, superstition, the New Komeito Party, President Ikeda's nonsensical poetry in bad SGI newspapers, Women's Division, Men's Division, trying to foist Japanese traditions on westerners, multiculturalism, political causes, bad rhetoric, SGI as part of the Ikeda family dynasty, you-can-cure-diabetes-by-chanting, arguments over which Gohonzon will bring you good/bad fortune, "Gohonzon-is-a-wish-fulfilling-machine," "raising youth," and opening charter schools, Victory over Violence campaigns, festivals, putting on big conventions and shows, the young men's division's roller-skating pyramid, taking the Liberty Bell to schools. The list goes on and on, and the piles of junk get higher and higher.

NONE of this is really Buddhism! WHY did it take me so long to realize this? It shouldn't matter if Mav is conservative, I'm liberal, and someone else is an anarchist. We should still be able to chant together and study Buddhist teachings. If we want to discuss politics or sociology, there are other places to do that.

the idea of using a Journal, is taken from cognitive-therapy.
Putting the facts down in writing, and then reviewing them carefully.
Its Reality-Testing.

So if a person feared that their life might go down the crapper if they stop SGI-chanting, then they can MEASURE it. Hey, if a person is really techie, they could even graph it!
You have a notebook, with a calendar, and make a note of any so-called "bad" things that happen, and so-called "good" things.
A person might find after measuring what happened, that nothing different happened, or maybe there is a change for the better?

When Ikeda, and others, tell a person that leaving the Group/Cult will lead to disaster, they are using an old tactic. Many groups/cults say if you leave, you will get cancer, and die, and worse. Eternal Damnation.
They are just using Sunday School levels of superstitious FEAR-MONGERING to try and control people.

People could track their Ex-SGI life circumstances using a journal, calendar, or graph, and then post it anonymously online! People would then see its just fear-mongering and scare-tactics.
Its very common, every group like this does a version of it. FEAR WORKS.




As far as Ikeda's succession...every big leader like Ikeda basically only lets power slip from their cold-dead hands. They don't give it up, until they die. They don't want to face death either.
And the record does show, that these types of groups usually get WORSE in the 2nd generation.
All the decision power and money is concentrated in Ikeda's hands. Once he dies, then that power will slip to someone else.
Often, guys like Ikeda deliberately do not announce a successor, as they want power to be seized by the strongest. They tease the inner circle, and then let them fight it out after he's dead.
But who knows, Ikeda could in his mind believe he's gonna live forever. Power literally does corrupt any human.

Quote
gingermarie
Mav, you wrote:
"It amazes me how SGI-USA members who zealously preach equality and feminism here in the US never look at the obvious inequality depicted on those monthly Ikeda videos they watch from Japan: how the men sit on one side of the auditorium and the women on the other. That's where I would reform first if SGI has any guts. Make it so that both sexes could sit anywhere in the SGI Japanese auditoriums. My guess is they don't dare to criticize Ikeda for not changing the culture of inequality between men and women in Japan."

I remember one video I saw where Ikeda asks all the men to make the guests of honor feel comfortable by taking their jackets off. Immediately, every single man, on the one side, of course, took their jacket off. It was so bizzarre.
Not one young man left his jacket on. There was a sea of white shirts. I wonder, if one young man had left his jacket on, what would happen?
)

I lived in Japan in the 1980's and there is just such a conformist mentality there. I'd ride the Tokyo or Yokohama subways, and they'd be jam-packed with men, ranging in age from early twenties to early sixties -- all in the uniform. Gray suit, white shirt, dark, conservative tie, black, slip-on shoes. If it were raining, they had a tan raincoat and a black umbrella. Never even a dark gray umbrella. Never a cream-colored or light blue shirt, or a bright tie. The kids, whether in public or private schools, had their uniforms. The young ladies who worked in a store, car dealership office or whatever, had their uniform for their place of work -- and went out and did their calisthenics all together first thing in the morning. That's the culture, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down." One young man would never, never leave his jacket on if everyone else was taking off his.

Men and women in Japan live very separate lives. I had an interesting discussion with a group of Japanese housewives once. They felt that their HUSBANDS were more oppressed than they were! These wives felt that they had more freedom to set their own schedule and pursue their interests, especially after the children were in school all day. The men had to work long hours at often boring jobs and put up with a lot from bosses. The women in this group also said, "You poor American women, you're killing yourselves, going out to a job all day and then having to come home and do all the housework!"

These women were both amused and irritated by some westerners' belief that Japanese women are submissive and downtrodden. A Japanese husband turns his paycheck over to his wife -- and she gives him an allowance -- yes, even executives who handle multi-million dollar deals. Wives make the decisions on finances, investing, purchases, the children's education and discipline. One woman said, with a smile, "Why do you American women accept your husbands' interference in handling money? The wife should handle the money. Why are American women so submissive to their men?"

So, should we assume that the Japanese women object to sitting on their side of the auditorium? That it makes them feel demeaned or oppressed? I don't think we can. Perhaps they'd be very uncomfortable at a meeting where anybody can sit anywhere. It might seem so disorderly, so western.

On the other hand, maybe the women I talked to are not typical, and the Japanese women's division members are just dying to go over and sit on the men's side. Sit next to the men and poke them so if they doze during Sensei's long speeches. I'm remembering something funny, one of our big conventions. A Japanese couple, big leaders in Japan, came over for this convention and they had seats onstage. It was hot and stuffy in the auditorium, lots of long speeches, and they probably had jet lag too. The husband fell asleep on stage and began snoring as his wife glared at him. You could tell she just wanted to smack him upside the head -- and she couldn't because she was on stage, in front of everyone. You just knew that the poor guy was going to catch hell when they got back to the hotel room. Does anyone else remember that meeting?

Maybe the Japanese men's division feel safer sitting away from their wives. Whatever. I cannot say how the Japanese should conduct their meetings, and I think that SGI really erred in trying to force their Japanese culture -- segregation of the sexes, conformity, no questioning, deference to elders and men, on its western members. Again, it was baggage piled on top of Buddhism that was not really Buddhism.

Quote
tsukimoto
It shouldn't matter if Mav is conservative, I'm liberal, and someone else is an anarchist. We should still be able to chant together and study Buddhist teachings. If we want to discuss politics or sociology, there are other places to do that.

Precisely. That's the way it should be, but in practice I think it's extremely hard. Group think, the herd mentality, when the whole auditorium at an area meeting has some leader making snide comments against conservatives, it's hard to muster up the courage to speak out. You feel quashed. Sometimes, I really wonder if for somebody like me, who's actually "old-school" Asian in mental outlook (even though my girlfriend is an all-American girl from Ohio), if Buddhism is even compatible to my more traditional world-view since my culture is not about all this peace, love, and dialogue. In my culture, we believe there's a lot of evil people out there, and that sometimes only strength and force can overcome the evildoers who want to kill you and your family. I lived under Communism briefly and my family for many years before that. If that makes me somewhat "outdated", so be it. I find it interesting that many Eastern European girls I've dated had the same outlook.

Love your analogy using the cottage, by the way!

Quote
Mav
Group think, the herd mentality, when the whole auditorium at an area meeting has some leader making snide comments against conservatives, it's hard to muster up the courage to speak out. You feel quashed. Sometimes, I really wonder if for somebody like me, who's actually "old-school" Asian in mental outlook (even though my girlfriend is an all-American girl from Ohio), if Buddhism is even compatible to my more traditional world-view since my culture is not about all this peace, love, and dialogue. In my culture, we believe there's a lot of evil people out there, and that sometimes only strength and force can overcome the evildoers who want to kill you and your family. I lived under Communism briefly and my family for many years before that. If that makes me somewhat "outdated", so be it. I find it interesting that many Eastern European girls I've dated had the same outlook.

Love your analogy using the cottage, by the way!

Thanks.

It is very hard to speak out when the whole auditorium seems to be in total agreement with what some leader is saying. Many times, I couldn't do it either. Once I did speak out at a large meeting, asking questions about the Nichiren Shoshu-SGI split. The audience and the leader didn't like my questions, and there was just this angry muttering going on as I spoke. Frankly, it was scary! I wondered if I'd be asked to leave...or perhaps "helped" out of the building. I wasn't, but the whole vibe was definitely not good, and nobody spoke to me as we left the auditorium. And these are people who talk about dialogue and world peace?

I've read that middle-class and upper middle-class kids are more likely to become involved with cults because of naivete and idealism. Kids from poor, dangerous neighborhoods know that they've got to be wary if something sounds too good to be true. They know that there are some people who won't let you live in peace -- unless you are strong enough to make them leave you alone.

Interestingly enough, SGI groups have recently been established in Russia, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic. I don't know how big or active any of them are.

If you don't mind my asking, Mav, how did you get involved with SGI?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2009 04:22AM by tsukimoto.

tsukimoto,

Wow, I can't believe the people treated you that way at that meeting. Even though I was outspoken, I never got the cold-shoulder or hostile treatment like that. How sad!

Nah, I don’t mind telling you about how I got involved with SGI. The first time I heard about Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo was through a guy I met at the gym in Hollywood who learned that I was in LA to pursue acting. He kept telling me that I needed to chant like Tina Turner, Patrick Duffy, and other celebs if I wanted to make it. My family practices Vietnamese Buddhism but I always thought it was superstitious and like the Catholic Church. I remember at the time how astounded I was to hear about a different kind of Buddhism based on the chanting of such a simple phrase and so unabashedly forward about attaining one’s material goals. I always thought Vietnamese Buddhism was so passive. I was dabbling in various New Age stuff at the time and was really trying to work on my self-esteem so I guess I was receptive. But, because he was a young guy like myself, and didn’t seem particularly “successful,” I kept resisting and never went to a discussion meeting with him. A few months later, I went to a photographer in the Hollywood Hills to get some new headshots at his home studio. For whatever reason (karma?) we hit it off with each other, and he told me about chanting. I said I had just heard about it at the gym! He invited me to come to a discussion meeting in Santa Monica, and I don’t know why, but maybe because he and his wife lived in such a nice house at the time (his day gig was actually being a real-estate agent), I decided to go for it. Went to my first meeting and then got my Gohonzon a few weeks later.

Looking back, I’m not sure why I “needed” to join SGI (or NSA at the time). I remember telling people at my first meetings that my life was going pretty good and I wasn’t really chanting for anything urgent or major such as a job, a car, etc., except to be a successful actor. Well, they told me I was so fortunate for having discovered an amazing practice that would build the fortune I needed to be a great actor. I think I just joined because there was a spiritual hunger, and I needed a disciplined practice.

I agree completely with what you wrote about kids from poorer areas having to be more wary. I grew up in a lower-middle class immigrant family in some tough areas of LA and Orange County, and so, yes, you have to have some street smarts, too, to survive or not get beaten up. It’s funny though. SGI would always tried to go out of their way to shakabuku minority kids in bad neighborhoods here in LA. But a lot of those people didn’t stick around. That said, the LA Friendship Center in the middle of LA has a huge African-American contingency of members. I still have friends there, although the ethnocentric emphasis such as the “African-American Tales” group (or some name like that) had me scratching my head: Aren’t we all members here, why need a separate group based on ethnicity? Then, after that, we got the LBGT group, and other groups, too. Just a whole Balkanization of the organization. I don't remember it being that way in the old days prior to the late 90s.

Thank you to everybody that has been posting in this forum to make people aware of the truth of SGI! I was totally appalled last night reading through all, but also very grateful.
I only joined two meetings, and I’m so thankful to say that I’m done with SGI.
I’ve read about the power of our subconscious mind, and I couldn’t understand why only “Nam Myoho Renge Kyo” would work. Our subconscious mind believes everything we tell it over and over. What was so magical about that chanting?
On the second meeting my friend was ready to buy me a Gohonzo (to push me on joining of course) but I told her I still had more questions. I felt that something wasn’t right about all this.
I felt manipulated, like she was trying to control me with her fear tactics, because her religion was the only true religion, and their methods were the only ones that worked!
Just the thought of having to bring a Gohonzo to my house was so perturbing. It was something that was being forced on me and I was going to have to make room in my house for something I didn’t even want or believed in (I don’t even have many unnecessary things or decorations in my house). Besides I was raised as a Christian and my beliefs are still rooted in The Bible and Jesus.
I was reading with so much awe and dismay all of your experiences!
YOU HAVE SAVED ME!
My friend was even making me feeling guilty if I didn’t join, trying to find faults on me when I kept telling her that I’m very healthy and everything is working fine in my life. But now I’m finding out exactly why and how she was trying to force me to join her religion.
I can only say, “THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!”
I’M SO, SO, SO, SO, SO HAPPY that I didn’t go farther on that road!! You have saved me a lot of grief, and I WILL BE ETTERNALLY GRATEFUL TO YOU FOR IT!!!!
How wonderful are these Forums in the internet where I can find out the answers they didn’t want to give me on SGI!

Awaken, I'm grateful to have this forum too. It has helped me to post and read other people's posts. You saved yourself too, by resisting your "friend's" attempt to push you into SGI -- and with your willingness to look for other information on SGI.

I remember being at a meeting, back when I was in SGI, and the leader told a guest, "You can be both a Christian and a Buddhist." Even then, that statement seemed wrong to me. I don't mean to sound as if I'm judging anyone else's beliefs, but it just seems as if Christianity and Buddhism are just so different philosophically. I can't understand how a person can practice both simultaneously. Hearing that leader say that made me think, "They'll say anything to get people to join."

I also remember SGI's "Shakabuku Campaigns," ie membership drives. We had quotas -- a certain number of people that we were supposed to convert within a week or month. Leaders would get very angry if a group did not make its quota! This meant that you'd bring someone to a meeting -- and then other members would hound them, right then and there, to join. That bothered me too. It reminded me of a used-car salesman trying to close a sale, rather than anything spiritual. How in the world was this being respectful of people or concerned about their happiness?

Contrast that with a family friend who converted to Catholicism around that time. He attended a special program at a local church, where he learned more about the Catholic faith. He told me that he did not feel pressured or rushed. He felt that he could have stopped at any time if he'd wanted to. His teachers in this program told him not to hurry. They said that, if he was going to commit to being a Catholic, that he needed to understand what being Catholic actually meant before he committed to it.

If you feel manipulated, pressured, rushed, guilty, afraid or not listened to...those are red flags. Red flags that I wish I'd heeded much sooner!

I too, share the same pain and some of the experiences as some of the former sgi members. For a while I have been thinking about not practicing ( and will eventually quit) because it is not fulfilling to me anymore. While I love to chant Nam Myo Renge Kyo, I myself, am not happy with some of the things that are going on in the organization. No matter what it is that I do, it is never enough. If I am sad or having a bad day, I am considered to be not practicing correctly when it is perfectly normal to feel these emotions as a human. Also, there are times when I am taken aback by the behavior of some of the members, especially the leaders that are higher up in the organization. They are truly cocky and arrogant and at times when seeking guidance they act as if they are trained therapist or psychologist. When I first started practicing, I felt a sense of happiness, yet when I got my gohonzan (two months after) that is when all of the pressure started. In the beginning the members were really friendly but after a while they began to patronize and to condescend. I remember a few times being told that if I ever left the organization that, "my life would never be the same" and that life would be even harder with only a semblance of happiness. At that point I became scared to leave given that I do not have enough family close to where I live and that most of the members are my friends given that they live close to me. I feel very brainwashed. Even though I know some to the things that they have said to me is hoopla, I still fear that life will be bad if I decide not to practice. However, I know in my heart that the time has come to move on and that eventually, I will start to realize that I knew how to be happy all along. Once again thanks for everyone's input this has truly been a benefit for me given that I have no one to talk to.

Also, another thing that I noticed within SGI was the fact that, the higher you were promoted, the more colder you seemed. It was as if normal human emotions such as, sadness (and in some cases anger) were not allowed. I remember one time suffering as a result of a emotionally abusive relationship. I got no support at all. The members kept telling me that, I was the one who cause this to happen to me. They purport to this as if it was the result of a past life time that I had shared with this person that cause this to happen. I also remember a young woman being molested and her going for guidance and being told that she chose for it to happen to her as a result of a past life. There was ( and still is) so much of that going on. The thing about it though was those same people who were talking about all of these things would slander, curse, and demean others if something bad happen to them.