I think we've all been straying from freeyourmind's original question:

"Just wondering...how do other former members feel about those who remain in the org and insist that it benefits them? Do you have a to each his own mindset or something else?"

This certainly seems like a valid question.

I think that paying the tuition for college students is a pretty brilliant way to recruit people in that highly-desired age group.

Any low-income kid who is exploring scholarships/grants is taking a desire to better him- or herself pretty seriously. Isn't that what sgi purports to be all about?

College is notoriously about peer-pressure. If 80% of the kids are living on campus, they are in an sgi-all-the-time situation. kids who are there because mom and dad can afford the tuition are going to be able to impress upon grant-kids how the good fortune of their family is attributable to their practices. Besides, if these people are wonderful enough to pay your tuition, shouldn't you display your respect and gratitude enough to at least listen to what they have to say?

$9k is a lot more attainable that $60k. Or maybe you are in a work/study program (I bet there are plenty of them there, too - sgi loves its free labor), or maybe you don't live on campus so your expense are maybe lower. Besides, if you just try chanting, you just KNOW that your circumstances will improve. Bibbity-bobbity-boo!

I'm pretty sure they get a good return on their minor investment in terms of shiny new recruits. That kind of situation is kind of a wet-dream for shakubuku; you've identified your targets and separated them from their familiar surroundings, you give them something to feel grateful for, and you surround them 24/7 with kids who are creaming in their jeans to rack you up as another little soldier for cousin rufus.

Oh, no question about the logic, meh - your rationale makes perfect sense! I'm just saying that THIS generation, the Millennials, are notoriously NOT organized religion friendly.

You're right - the on-campus environment is heavily SGI-centric. And the campus is pretty isolated, so if you don't have a car, there you are.

But this group in particular, the largest cohort in US history (77+ million vs. the Baby Boom's 75+ million), is the least likely to be found in churches, for example. Young men are streaming away from Mormonism, and Islamic youth, though admiring those who are devout Muslims, don't actually practice, themselves. (They say they'll become devout when they're older ha ha ha).

So I'm saying that, even if that IS the goal, it's going to fail. That's all. Those students will say "Thanks for the free tuition!" and go about their lives.

Quote

I think we've all been straying from freeyourmind's original question: - meh

Hey! Speak for yourself! I answered with a thoughtful and in-depth response; YOU're the one who detoured us toward Soka U! >:(

Haha - nope! I gave my response on the previous page! I'm saying that some of us responded with our feelings about the organization, not the individuals still in das org. I see that as two separate issues.

I completely agree that a lot of members of the millennial generation are self-involved little twerps. I think, like any generation, we tend to focus on the obvious few. Did everyone in my high school class drop acid, smoke weed, iron our hair and stand around with peace-signs? No. The vast majority of them rolled their eyes at us and went on about their business. The media, then as now, was only interested in those who were a little outside the norm. Same now as it was then - the caricatures are much more interesting, and if they piss us off a bit all the better. And, now that I think about it, my high school had its share of air-headed little twinkies . . . we called them "cheerleaders." (no offense to former cheerleaders out there, but in my school they were definitely a type)

The average kid who is even thinking about suck-a u is probably either someone brought up in sgi, who's parents are buying the false Buddhist crap that promotes, or kids to whom $60k towards their education looks pretty good. I don't think we're talking mainstream society or millennial debs here. The snowflakes will want to go to party schools if they can pout their way into getting mommy or daddy to pay for it - they'd be afraid they'd have to shave their heads and don saffron and maroon robes if they went to s-u. And, like, that's not a good look for, like, anybody, like, you know? Totes.

Here's my response to freeyourmind's question: "how do other former members feel about those who remain in the org and insist that it benefits them? Do you have a to each his own mindset or something else?" Well, freeyourmind, I guess I sorta do have an "to each his own" mindset, as I don't feel its my place to tell somebody else what to do or not to do, or what is right or wrong for them. Please bear with me while I relate this story regarding the closest friend I ever had in the cult.org.

I haven't keep in touch with anyone I knew from when I was a SGcult member since my final departure in 2003, with the exception of one person in Texas. I introduced V to the cult.org. around 30 years ago. We were pretty tight friends for over a decade, and we shared many interests beyond the SGcult. We were both pro musicians and performed in several bands together. V and I had a few original music performance projects that were videotaped and broadcast repeatedly on both San Antonio and Austin's PBS TV channels for several years. We also studied karate together for 9 years - even tested for our first degree black belts at the same time.

I have only seen or talked to V twice in the last 17 years (during trips back to Texas to play music with old friends). I understood that V didn't approve of my decision to forever leave behind the SGcult. I had to initiate both of our last two reunions, as V has never initiated contact with me since I moved away from Texas permanently in 1997. During our last visit, I was concerned with how intense V's narcissism has grown. He constantly talked about himself, yet neglected to ask me even once about anything regarding my life. I was shocked and extremely disappointed to learn that V had not even bothered to pick up the phone to notify me of our mutual close friend and my former roommate's death or funeral. It's been five years now since V and I last saw each other or spoke.

V is still an active SGcult member. I saw him in a SGI YouTube video that Hitch had posted a link to on this thread last year. Upon seeing V in the video, I had mixed feelings. Initially, I was excited and surprised, and felt a momentary yearning to see him again. Then, as I watched him there in the same CC, doing the same old tired activities as we did 30 years ago, I noticed his drained, lack of energy life condition. As I continued to watch the SGI video, I begin to feel very sorry for him. He appears to be stuck in a rut to me. His happiness has apparently not progressed very far under the weight of the SGcult. He's not an Ikeda worshiper, but his cult indoctrination looks to have slowly bled away the robust and rebellious energy he used to enjoy. Although I would like to see V again (not likely as for now, I don't see any future return trips to Texas ever happening), I know that he would not be very open or accepting of my present views on the SGcult. Perhaps that's why I never hear from him - and also why I don't try to talk to him.

V has frequently been a victim of his own Catholic/SGI macho cult mindset. His ego prevents him from any admitting to have made any mistakes or being wrong. For instance, when we took our black belt tests together in 1993, I passed but he failed. He couldn't accept responsibility for his failure, so he deluded himself into believing that his test and mine had somehow been mixed up. He rationalized that he had passed his test and I was the one that had failed, and that the paperwork had somehow gotten switched. How easily he deluded himself surprised me.

The funny thing is, he chanted to pass the huge and difficult test, whereas I did not chant to pass - instead, I concentrated my efforts on practicing hard for the test. V mistakenly relied too much on the cult's assertion that he would get whatever he chanted for, but I did not. Yet, my confidence was so solid that I purchased a black belt in anticipation of passing, while V refused to buy one due to a lack of confidence while simultaneously being overconfident that he deserved to pass.

So here was a prime example of the SGIcult member's characteristic trait of trying to use Buddhism to bend reality to match desire, instead of accepting harsh reality and dealing with it. When constrained by the mental grip of the cult, members can no longer think or reason properly. This cult mind control phenomenon has happened to me, to my friend, and to countless others. Through cult indoctrination, everything in life becomes central to, and viewed through the distorted lens of the cult eye, serving to increase one's chance of failure instead of assuring "victory".

By the end of watching that SGcult video, I felt so happy and relieved to know I have moved on with my life, and have enjoyed tremendous benefits without any need of the cult.org. But I also felt very sad for my old friend, still stuck in the same pseudo-reality after three decades of cult butt-licking submission. Unfortunately, he will probably never wake up and realize that toeing the cult.org line has completely frozen any chance of progress on his path to enlightenment. V will likely never admit that he was duped (brainwashed) and used, or that he willingly followed and supported the cult crap for so many years. He has become totally controlled without knowing it.

I am left with a deep feeling of frustration, knowing that any words/opinions I could ever offer would not make a one bit of difference until V is willing to listen. The degree of control that he has granted to the SGcult over his life will likely remain in place. So yeah, freeyourmind, for me its live and let live. But I will continue to hope that someday V will be able to return from the wilderness that I so long ago mistakenly lead him into. He followed me in - how I still wish he would have followed me out when I left the Texas SGcult in 1993, due in large part to the treatment that V and others were unjustly receiving as youth division leaders from the cult.org. senior leadership.

I can't change things for my old friend, but in the meantime, what I can do is pour my efforts into helping those who are beginning to awake and are seeking support in their efforts to throw off the cult chains that invisibly bind minds and hearts. Many here on this forum blazed a trail into the heart of the beast, now we have blazed a trail out - follow our trail out and dare to become your own master again. Only you can put an end to your self-enslavement to a cult, but its a hell of lot easier when you have a great support group!

Spartacus



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2014 10:49PM by Spartacus.

I'm not sure what the saddest part is, that it happens or that it happens and the person is unable to see or acknowledge it.

I've worked as a contractor for a few years now; it was never my choice, but those were the jobs that became available for me. Because of that, I've had periods of unemployment . . . a contract ends, and it takes a few months to find another position. I always chanted for that new job to come through, and then I'd chant to be the best employee ever, so that they'd keep me on permanently. The contracts always ended, and I was never taken on full time.

I was unemployed last year when I left das org; rather than putting that energy into chanting and depending upon the magic law to "send" me the right job, I actually got pretty aggressive in my hunt. Within a couple of months, I found the job I'm in now. Once again, rather than passively depending upon the ML to provide, I went in and interviewed my ass off; since I started, I've been putting in the effort at work rather than in front of the gohonzon. The company hasn't hired me full time yet, but they are talking about doing so once my contract is up.

I'm not saying that this is any magical reward for leaving the practice; I'm saying that this is a result of my own hard work and efforts. The time I used to spend chanting for a certain thing to happen I now spend doing things to make it happen. I'm no longer passive, and turning my will and fate over to some mystical hokey-pokey.

As has been said here before, sgi's definition of "faith into action" is to chant/practice/donate/connect to senseless. It doesn't have anything to do with the hard practice of just living your life and directing yourself in the desired direction. It's about learning the lessons life offers, that sometimes no matter how much you want something, it might not happen - but that has nothing to do with a failure on your part. It isn't because you didn't do something properly . . . it just is what it is.

I'll never forget a former friend telling me about another person who had just started chanting and, of course, had been told that you can "make the impossible possible." The newbie decided she would really challenge that; she'd been in a car accident, and lost most of her teeth. You guessed it, she chanted to have them grow back. She didn't seriously think it was going to happen, but took the view that if chanting worked for anything, then anything should be possible. When it didn't work, she cheerfully told my friend to shove off. My friend was offended, and told her she shouldn't have chanted for anything so ridiculous.

So, my observation would be this - sgi says that you can chant for anything. It doesn't say to chant for anything, but keep it reasonable. And practitioners really know, in their heart of hearts, that you can't chant for absolutely anything and make it happen. I have as yet to hear of anyone chanting to make the dead come to life, lost limbs to grow back, to wake up 20 pounds lighter or ten years younger; they always chant for something "reasonable" and, if you think about it, nothing that they couldn't accomplish on their own. They aren't willing to test their faith quite that far.

Quote

I'll never forget a former friend telling me about another person who had just started chanting and, of course, had been told that you can "make the impossible possible." The newbie decided she would really challenge that; she'd been in a car accident, and lost most of her teeth. You guessed it, she chanted to have them grow back. She didn't seriously think it was going to happen, but took the view that if chanting worked for anything, then anything should be possible. When it didn't work, she cheerfully told my friend to shove off. My friend was offended, and told her she shouldn't have chanted for anything so ridiculous.

Years ago, there was an experience in the World Tribune where a woman said her teeth DID grow back! This would have been in the late 1980s, I think O_O

What use is "make the impossible possible" if all you're permitted to chant for is the mundane, trivial, possible stuff that other people are already able to get without having to chant at all???

Quote

They aren't willing to test their faith quite that far.

What would be the point? They already know those things are off limits. Ain't gonna happen - Mystic Law or no Mystic Law; magic spell chanting or no magic spell chanting.

In the Bible, all prayers are guaranteed to be answered - take a look:

John 14:12-14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Ha ha ha - right?? Yeah, pull the other one, Jeezis! Yet there it is - JESUS ITSELF making false promises! People, though, desperately want to believe that this sort of thing CAN happen, that they can get something for nothing and that there is some "agency" of some kind that can bend, even abrogate, the rules of reality in their favor. Just because they want it so much. If they can only learn the magic spell, the "Open Sesame", the ritual that activates this power. So, since Christian prayer doesn't work (we all know that), maybe Buddhist chanting will. I applaud that noob who set the bar high enough to not get suckered in by "I found a nickel on the sidewalk and, with the rest of the change I already had in my pocket, I could afford to buy a Coke!" kinds of "benefits".

I've already pointed out several areas where SGI cult "buddhism" has strong similarities to Evangelical Christianity, so it's no surprise that this sort of same-just-slightly-altered belief system should have been able to spread within a Christianity-dominated culture. But I really don't think it's growing any more - I suspect it has contracted significantly. Game over, Ikeda.

I say that they aren't willing to test their faith that far because they don't want it proven to them that it doesn't work. I think that might be behind the humility thing in Christianity - don't ask for too much because, not only are you probably not worthy, but there are a few unspoken disclaimers in place.

Teeth grew back? Whoa . . . I should have kept on chanting to wake up ten years younger!

Whackadoo Christian, whackadoo Buddhist, whackadoo whatever - when you hand your power over to someone else, you're screwed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2014 02:00AM by meh.

Meh said, "I'm saying that this is a result of my own hard work and efforts. The time I used to spend chanting for a certain thing to happen I now spend doing things to make it happen. I'm no longer passive, and turning my will and fate over to some mystical hokey-pok".

ST&P said, "People, though, desperately want to believe that this sort of thing CAN happen, that they can get something for nothing and that there is some "agency" of some kind that can bend, even abrogate, the rules of reality in their favor. Just because they want it so much. If they can only learn the magic spell, the "Open Sesame", the ritual that activates this power."

Thanks for reinforcing my previously posted point, Meh and ST&P. For sake of easier comparison, here it is again: "...he chanted to pass the huge and difficult test, whereas I did not chant to pass - instead, I concentrated my efforts on practicing hard for the test. V mistakenly relied too much on the cult's assertion that he would get whatever he chanted for, but I did not. Yet, my confidence was so solid that I purchased a black belt in anticipation of passing, while V refused to buy one due to a lack of confidence while simultaneously being overconfident that he deserved to pass." What a classic example of cognitive disassociation!

And further, "...a prime example of the SGIcult member's characteristic trait of trying to use Buddhism to bend reality to match desire, instead of accepting harsh reality and dealing with it."

And now,
From the Chanting Really Works Dept:
Long ago, I almost sat down on a poisonous water snake sunning itself upon a rock. With an adrenaline surge, I jumped away and shouted NMRK at the snake, while fearfully willing it to go away. The just as surprised and scared snake swam away to safety as fast as it could. My cult programed interpretation at the time: more proof chanting really works.

The ability to fool oneself often far exceeds the inner voice of reason.

Spartacus



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2014 12:33PM by Spartacus.