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At one point, he took up chanting, "Because Tina Turner did it".

According to him, he was asked what he wanted to chant for.

"I just want to be happy".

"But what do you want?"

"I want to be happy."

"But dont you want a car, job or partner?"

Our informant replied, "I have all those things. But I am not happy. I dont need any more things. I just want to be happy!"

Our informant told us that the Nicherin person looked dumbfounded. Then said, "Well the chant works best when you chant for things."

At that point X left the organization and gave up chanting just as quickly.

Well, while I don't doubt the veracity of the anecdote, my own experience with the organization was quite different. I remember being told stories of Japanese war bride "pioneers", who would go out on the streets with cards printed with "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo", often with infants in strollers, whose Engrish was limited to "Chant nam myoho renge kyo - become happy".

Most of the people I knew within the organization were chanting to resolve personal issues - "to be happy", in other words. I know I was. I had two degrees; I had money; I had a nice place to live and a new car. I had relationship issues, but I saw those as a manifestation of what was "broken" within myself, and that was what I was chanting to get to the bottom of.

I certainly never heard anyone say "the chant works best when you chant for things." Not once. Most of the time, the people in my districts have been fairly affluent, educated white people. No real connection with the down-and-outers. More of an intellectual crowd, in other words.

Do you happen to know what time frame that commentary is from? Has the SGI changed THAT much, so that now it's pushing *stuff*??

I just ran across this post on a closed thread and found it interesting enough to want to share :}

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I was a district leader in Eastern France when I decided to cut all connections with SGI. It had taken me nearly 6 months of investigation of all the available evidence concerning the split to come to a point where my doubts were answered - and they definitely answered. Senior leaders asked to intervene at a meeting of ours, which I agreed to. They came ill prepared to counter the evidence. The material used to support our decision came from my own library, some of which dated from the mid sixties. At the meeting, we all read in turn (Gakkai style!) from a compilation of the major points concerning each divisive issue, isue which were referenced to Gakkai publications. or other related but none-the-less SGI sanctioned material (eg." Japan's New Buddhism"Murata). It was almost comical when the regional director would exclaim at some particular point that what we were reading was nonsense. However, at each protest I passed to him the SGI source material, but he would only wind up looking at it as though I must have got it from the priests, so it had to be some sort of trick.

Three weeks later he brought a young priest who had recently been defrocked. I met with them (the regional director, the priest and a youth director for all of France who acted as a translator. At one point, the priest began stabbing his pointed index finger towards my head threatening to sue me! They were all over the place. I should explain here that I never just give my opinion, certainly not since one of the most frequent counter attacks the Gakkai has made against criticism in its own ranks is by crying that it's just an opinion and nothing else. But no, I had them with their own words, so what could they do? Well, they shift to other arguments, like you're disrupting the unity of the members and that's a serious karmic crime. Or they might say that you were never really connected to Ikeda and not benefiting for the master mentor relationship. They would argue anything but the facts, and there are lots of nasty facts all over the place, some we even just ignore.

If we are against injustice, should we then participate in it? If we have faith in what Nichiren teaches us about enlightenment and how to practice, should we let anything else come between us and this truth? How can we go on till the end of our lives with a clear conscious that we are doing the right thing - a decision each of us has to make ON OUR OWN?

I took mine 20 years ago and haven't regretted it for a moment.

I was in very difficult financial times when my friend finally brought me over to the dark side by giving me the old "if you chant for two weeks and things don't change, I'll drop my practice of [then] 36 years." The things I was encouraged, specifically, to chant for were new tires for my car and a happier job situation. Within those first two weeks, I had a windfall which allowed me to replace my tires, and I received an offer for a much better job. Timing is everything, isn't it? I expect that if I hadn't gotten such immediate results, my friend would have coached me in my chanting techniques or something. In retrospect, of course, I realize that those things would have happened anyway (I was due for a break!), but attributed them to chanting and was promptly hooked. I think that early on, the people that I knew were definitely encouraged to chant for things - looking for that "actual proof"! As we've all pretty much agreed, nobody enters into this practice because they're happy or have a great life - we were all looking for something, if only for answers to some of those stubborn internal questions. We've also discussed the whole confirmation bias thing, too - where we're so primed to recognize any positive change as a result of our shiny new tool.

Encouraging someone to chant for their happiness is vague enough to work for anything or anybody; each person has their own definition of happiness and their own ideas of what would make them happy. And I believe that whoever it is that is shaku-bukuing another person is doing it with what they sincerely believe to be the best of intentions.

Getting out of das org isn't nearly as pleasant. I've been extremely lucky; I made it clear from the start that I wasn't going to tolerate being harassed or harangued about my decision and, by and large, that demand has been respected. I still get an odd phone call or greeting card, and I just tuck them away in case it snowballs at any point. I returned my gohonzon almost two weeks ago - I did put my return address on the box (that's just something I always do), and so far haven't gotten any follow-up from anybody, so maybe I'm on their list of people not to bother any more. I think I've lost that knee-jerk response to chant in moments of stress, although I admit I miss its mind-lulling ability when I'm fighting my normal insomnia, but that's about it.

I've lost only one person that I considered a real friend, and the woman who shaku-buku'd me (whom I've know since high school) and I talk on the phone at least four or five times a week, for at least an hour at a time. The only time she's displayed any kind of emotional response to my defection was a couple of weeks ago when I was getting ready for the interview for my new job; she jokingly said something like "you don't have to admit to me that you're chanting for this job." When I told her that I wasn't chanting at all, she (so sadly) said "you really don't believe that it works, do you?" I just told her "no," with no elaboration. Despite her adherence to this practice, I love and respect her and see no reason to offend her or hurt her with the conclusions I've drawn about sgi. Her husband and daughter are true zombies - even if I could win her over with reason, it would pretty much destroy her family if she stopped practicing.

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Within those first two weeks, I had a windfall which allowed me to replace my tires, and I received an offer for a much better job. Timing is everything, isn't it?

Weren't you working to the best of your ability on accomplishing those things anyhow?

I mean, sure, you chanted - too - but you were already doing everything you could think of to attain those goals. People attain those goals likewise by trying, without needing to chant on top of that. When I finally realized that, the whole "chanting is the magical icing on the success cake" concept melted away. If you're already working your ass off to get (fill in the blank), you're pretty likely to get it. That's how life works. Effort in = success out.

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Encouraging someone to chant for their happiness is vague enough to work for anything or anybody; each person has their own definition of happiness and their own ideas of what would make them happy. And I believe that
whoever it is that is shaku-bukuing another person is doing it with what they sincerely believe to be the best of intentions.

Agreed. I just can't wrap my mind around another person being so wittingly evil that they would set out to ensnare a vulnerable person with the intent that this person will become a cult zombie and have their life ruined.

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although I admit I miss its mind-lulling ability when I'm fighting my normal insomnia

Perhaps you might like to try another Buddhist angle - the "breathing meditation." You lie there in the dark and focus *exclusively* on your breathing. Iiiiiiin. Oooout. Iiiiiiiin. Oooout. Don't put the words to it, just feel the air passing into your lungs and passing out. Focus completely on that. When I was first coming out, my habit was to chant in my mind when I couldn't sleep or was falling asleep. I consciously substituted the breathing meditation, and it enabled me to disentangle my mind from the mental-chanting habit. That's all it was, of course. Now, I sometimes will do it, but I no longer think of it as a "chanting meditation." It just focuses my mind on something that doesn't involve thinking, if that makes any sense.

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When I told her that I wasn't chanting at all, she (so sadly) said "you really don't believe that it works, do you?" I just told her "no," with no elaboration. Despite her adherence to this practice, I love and respect her and see no reason to offend her or hurt her with the conclusions I've drawn about sgi. Her husband and daughter are true zombies - even if I could win her over with reason, it would pretty much destroy her family if she stopped practicing.

Yes, I agree - no point in attempting to sway her one way or another. After all, if you want her to respect your right to choose for yourself, you have to extend her that consideration and respect first, right? Fair's fair!

I love that whole "I know you're secretly chanting and you just don't want anyone to know." *eye roll* Sort of the SGI version of "There are no atheists in foxholes." Sure there are. I have known several, active military, served active duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, Fallujah and the whole 9 yards. None of them went crying to any jesus.

Regardless, since her family is *in*, her situation is extremely complicated. I wouldn't touch THAT one with a ten-foot pole! My only remaining contact with SGI, my former best friend, the Japanese ex-pat who basically used me for all she could get out of me while her convicted felon junkie of a criminal husband was in prison, only to have *nothing* to do with me once he got out (he's back in for the rest of his life now), is a "fortune baby" (some "fortune"!), so I couldn't possibly talk to her about my realizations. Let her live her life as she wishes/as she must. I can be kind.

It would surprise me with your sponsor if push didn't come to shove at some point. With intolerant religions, there seems to always be this timeline in effect - you're the project, and unless you deliver results in the time frame that the member has internally specified (without your knowledge), then when that window for putting effort into you closes, when the time you've been allotted to get on board runs out, you may well find that the phone calls stop and YOUR phone calls start to go unanswered. I don't know about your friend - it sounds like you've got significant history together, but things change when you become an "outsider."

On the old board, I mentioned this one time Theresa Hauber - Big Cheese Eric Hauber's wife - came to one of our district meetings, and she gave her "experience" about starting her practice. She was told to make a list of things she wanted to accomplish or see happen in her life. She said she was encouraged to chant for 90 days (which just happens to be about the minimum time required to get a habit entrenched) and, if she didn't get everything on her list, she could quit with a clear conscience - she'd tried it, but it hadn't worked. So she got a legal pad, and filled out one of those long yellow pages front and back. As the days went on, she checked off item after item. Finally, on the 90th day, there was only one item left - for her husband to finish and turn in his dissertation, which he'd been dragging his feet about for about a year, if memory serves. So she called her sponsor and said, "It didn't work. Come pick up the scroll - I don't want it any more." Hung up the phone, and it rang - it was her husband. Guess what he said? "I just finished and turned in my dissertation." So when her sponsor got there, she said, "I've changed my mind - I'll keep it."

So there, from a national level leader, was a very clear "Chant for whatever you want" message. What always gets me is that people only chant about basically trivial stuff. They never chant for the child born without an arm to grow his arm back - my former district leaders had a kid they'd adopted with that condition. When he asked if he could chant for his arm to grow back, they hemmed and hawed and said, "um...no. But your missing arm doesn't have to stop you from doing whatever you want to do." Lame.

What about chanting for CEOs to decide to cut their own pay to 100 times the pay of the lowest paid employee in the corporation? What about chanting for our presidents to stop attacking and invading other countries? What about chanting for the oil companies to put serious money into alternative energy sources, cutting oil usage to less than 10% of their business within 6 months? Certainly THOSE things are "possible", right? Aren't we supposed to be able to "make the impossible possible" by chanting? So why is it that people who chant for stuff chant for the very same stuff that other people all around them are getting through their own efforts, without any chanting at all? That seems utterly self-defeating.

Either you can make the impossible possible, or you can't. So why aren't you chanting for things that other people CAN'T get all by themselves??

Of course I was doing everything I could (from a practical standpoint) to change jobs and get those new tires, but when you're in the throes of confirmation bias, you can only attribute that "good fortune" to chanting.

That whole "making the impossible possible" thing always had those unspoken limitations that made me smirk - I did hear about one woman who chanted for her teeth (that had been knocked out in an accident) to grow back, but I guess the magic law decided that her prosthetics were good enough. She didn't last long in the org. She is the only person I heard of who chanted for something and didn't receive it; for one thing, people just don't only talk about successes, but the other side of that is that leaders embed such shame if your wishes aren't fulfilled. It's your fault because you're a lousy practitioner. Or maybe you're being protected because what you think you want isn't really going to be good for you - the magic law knows best. Most people sense those limitations and only chant for do-able things - there's the sense that the dead won't rise, missing limbs and teeth won't grow back and you won't wake up tomorrow 20 lbs. lighter and looking like Angelina Jolie. That would be, like, impossible . . . right?

Interesting development with my sponsor; her daughter is substantially younger than my kids, and she's been going through a lot of emotional turmoil in the four years since her daughter moved many miles away. She doesn't like some of her daughter's new friends (whom she's never met, only seen on the girl's FB page), and she's concerned about some of the decisions she's making. In the conversation I had with her Saturday, her worry and unhappiness was palpable - it was way beyond a couple of casual comments, and we probably stayed on that topic for 45 minutes. Having 20 years more experience as the parent of children who were out on their own, I wrote her an email, offering her some admittedly unsolicited perspective on the sitch. Offering support and advice is part of the relationship, so I thought I was just being a concerned friend, but she responded with so much anger that I was kind of stunned. The relevant-to-sgi portion was where she went on a tirade about how she and her husband have complete confidence that their chanting is protecting the kid, she has no worries since she knows that the magic law and sz's are totally protecting the girl.

I thought her response was interesting - if she's sooooo sure that all this magical juju is keeping her child safe, then the chat we had the other day should have never happened. She's so zombified that she doesn't hear her own doubts and fears as to the efficacy of her own practice. How bad is it when you can't even hear yourself speak or feel yourself feel? I'm pretty sure that a lot of her anger was really directed towards herself, because she is having doubt and can't admit that to herself. She was being a poor example of the practice!

This isn't a boo-hoo about a dispute with a friend; it's just remarkable to me how being in a cult takes over your good sense and reason. There is no independence of thought and to step away from the party line or admit to any weakness regarding it is frightening and threatening. Mind control. Wow. That a person will allow something so beyond logical thought to control every aspect of their lives . . . that's really scary. That that is so easily manipulated and accomplished . . . that part is just horrifying. Sgi proclaims itself as an org that promotes self-reliance and empowerment when, in fact, you're expected to joyfully hand over your independence and free-will. And then you're supposed to go out and eat the brains of other people.

Whether she has an agenda to bring me back into the fold or not remains to be seen. We do have a pretty long history outside of sgi, so I dunno. Right now, my life is a pretty bad demonstration of how your life is supposed to go into the shitter if you leave, so maybe she's waiting for something bad to happen before she goes into I-told-you-so mode. The rant she went on in her email is probably the most she's said about the practice in the three months since I made it over the wall. I know that you're never supposed to say "never," but I feel pretty safe in saying that I will never, ever go back.

Meh wrote:

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Of course I was doing everything I could (from a practical standpoint) to change jobs and get those new tires, but when you're in the throes of confirmation bias, you can only attribute that "good fortune" to chanting.

Just a hunch. When in the throes of confirmation bias, one can get a lovely feeling that all things are working to cover one's back and protect one.

That a sort of benevolent parental presence is with us, looking after us, so long as 1) we chant (or do whatever) and 2) we can cobble together enough 'evidence' from confirmation bias.

But...the labor needed to ignore, repress and suppress contradictory evidence can be considerable.

Especially today, when news coverage is heavy and full of stories about risk taking among college students.

When you're a parent, and your son or daughter goes off to college, these stories become salient. A source of pressure that will push hard on the bubble of safety produced by SGI teachings and ones' chanting.

And Meh is right. If X was certain that chanting was enough, why blow up?

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She's so zombified that she doesn't hear her own doubts and fears as to the efficacy of her own practice. How bad is it when you can't even hear yourself speak or feel yourself feel?

It can be bad.

I am usually in pretty good touch with my emotions.

People I have talked with have described how they are unaware of tension (anxiety or anger) but their bodies show certain symptoms that reveal it.

One person whose husband died went to get her hair styled. She'd not said anything, but her hairdresser combed through her hair and said, "What happened to you--you've lost hair!"

*Sleep troubles.

*Shallow breathing.

* Tension in the guts. Doing #2 becomes very difficult.

(When shutting down emotions, very many people clench their diaphragms. This can result in both shallow breathing and constrict one's guts.)

*Jaw clenching or tooth grinding.

* Heart pounding that happens only at night when trying to go to sleep.


Wonder how many SGI faithful believe chanting takes care of everything bad in life, but are carrying physical reactions to anxiety and anger and fear that they refuse to face at a conscious level.

X's daughter is actually working full time and going to school part time. As I reminded my friend in my email to her, her daughter is living her life in the independent and responsible way that her parents had raised her to; she's in her early 20's, though. People that age are inevitably going to make goofy choices, poor selections in who they're hanging with . . . it's a steep learning curve the first few years after leaving the nest. My belief is that if you know you have loving and supportive parents behind you (even if they're sgi whackos), it's a relatively safe space to make those mistakes in. X's daughter really is mature beyond her years; that being said, when she was living at home, her every move was paid attention to and commented upon . . . I would've found it repressive and without privacy. Now that she's out from under that tight observation, I don't blame her for going out and having a drink or two and having a bit of fun that mom might not approve of. She's a ywd leader, has a really strong practice, participates in all available activities and most of her friends are other yd members; if X had all that faith going on for real (instead of saying that she feels the way she thinks she should feel), she wouldn't be so worried and afraid.

Don't get me wrong - my kids are in their early 40's, and I still don't always agree with some of the decisions they make! I just don't agonize over them.

"That a sort of benevolent parental presence is with us, looking after us, so long as 1) we chant (or do whatever) and 2) we can cobble together enough 'evidence' from confirmation bias."

I think that many of us long for that loving mommy/daddy presence to look over us and - I know at my house - that approval and love was highly conditional, so the conditional "good fortune" made complete sense to me. If I was a good girl and did what I was told (toed the sgi practice and behavioral lines), the love and benefits would flow. It just took me awhile to realize what a high price I was paying for something that was not worth having in the first place if it came so dearly.

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I know that you're never supposed to say "never," but I feel pretty safe in saying that I will never, ever go back.

Don't be silly. Do you think there's any chance at all that you could go back to believing in Santa Claus with the sincerity and conviction you had as a 6-yr-old? When you've outgrown something, you've outgrown it. Yeah, you will never, ever go back. And there's nothing wrong with that - it's healthy, in fact. You tried it - good for you! - and you learned for yourself what it was all about. And you're done.

Imagine a bad relationship. While you were in it, you didn't realize what it was all about, but once you understood, that was the end of that. Want to go back? No?? You sure about that??? You could have all that ick all over again - huh? HUH??

I remember my mother once weepily accusing me of never having given Christianity a real try, since I outgrew that while I was still young (11-13). Sorry, Mom, but the whole premise is so ludicrous and offensive and laughable all at once that I can't even imagine "trying it" now. First of all, human sacrifice is gross. It's primitive and barbaric. But I'm supposed to feel good about it because it supposedly happened long enough ago that there's nothing I can do to change that and, besides, it gains me an eternity of heavenly slavery? No thanks! And if you don't believe there's something "out there", you just feel like a phony (if not a moron) going through the motions. Might as well pray to Joe Pesci - at least HE exists!

So yeah. Say "Never" when it's appropriate. No sense giving any unwarranted benefit of the doubt when you're sure.

Heh. Once you are out from under your parents' thumb/s, one may make some quite interesting choices.

My parents made a big deal out of having been Beatnik rebels.

I lived like a monk, studied my brains out, stayed drug and alcohol free and didnt even smoke.

My parents, especially my mother, hated organized religion and ranted against the Roman Catholic Church.

I converted to Catholicism when I left home for the first time and entered a belated adolescence.

Threw them a perfect Zen riddle. The folks would have had to do one of two things, both equally repugnant for them:

1) Respect my autonomy by respecting my choice

2) Work through their own neurotic hangups concerning religion.

(After my parents died, I realized they was right -- and then ditched the church.)


Sooo...it will be interesting to see what your friends daughter will do.

What is important is that at university and in her job, she is going to get information, friends and have sources of feedback and validation will be outside of SGI.

If you find your work is appreciated by your professors and your manager at work, and learn what it is like to be given respect and consistent guidance, that may put the SGI chickenshit into a whole new perspective.

And perhaps assist her to discover that, compared to the great big adult world out there, SGI is full of chickenshit - aka petty and not so petty power trips.

And a waste of human time and talent. Real world companies and workplaces have to be more efficient than that.

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Heh. Once you are out from under your parents' thumb/s, one may make some quite interesting choices.

My parents made a big deal out of having been Beatnik rebels.

I lived like a monk, studied my brains out, stayed drug and alcohol free and didnt even smoke.

My parents, especially my mother, hated organized religion and ranted against the Roman Catholic Church.

I converted to Catholicism when I left home for the first time and entered a belated adolescence.

Yes, it certainly is interesting the way it works out. One of the criticisms of the whole "pledge-your-virginity-to-Daddy" "purity balls" and whatnot "purity" movement is that it's basically setting kids up to go hog screaming WILD in the sack with just about anyone as soon as they move out! How creepy, discussing the status of your genitalia with your parents - or your entire church!!

When I studied abroad in France with a group from my university in 1981, one of the students was a girl from North Yemen (it's just "Yemen" now). A strict Muslim, she told us that every year, all the unmarried girls had to go to the temple to be "examined" by the old-men Muslim priests to make sure their hymens were still intact - talk about creepy!!

That's the thing - the rules you impose on your kids predict how they're going to rebel. Say that alcohol is forbidden - kids are going to be out getting blind drunk every night. Sex is off limits? PARTY TIME!! And on and on it goes.

So I simply direct genial almost-disinterest at my kids and their activities. With moms especially, kids often want to do the opposite of what Mom did and wants. So, since I hate Christianity, my son's going to church with his churchie friend's family. Of course I don't tell him he can't or anything like that - "Have a good time, honey!" All along, I've said that they are free to choose anything they like, including nothing, and that they don't have to be like me in any way. I have a box of condoms in the drawer of my desk downstairs for my kids and their friends to help themselves to - so far, nobody's taken any. My kids are 14 and 16 now.

As for my son's other Christian friend and his purity ring, it's more like, "Thanks for the status update on your wiener, hon. Not exactly the sort of visual I wanted in my brain, though."

As soon as you make it all about YOU, the kids get pissed off. And that's the direction their rebellion will go. Far better to not give them anything to push against. I don't put any rules on my kids. I also don't hold myself up as any sort of example to emulate. We just coexist and help each other out. If you make it clear that you want your kids to become like you, they'll make sure they don't.

One of the valuable things I took away from my time in the SGI was the idea that each of us is the director of our own destiny. I extended that responsibility to my kids - they make the choices and decisions, and I do the paperwork, essentially.