Quote

If your innards tell you that something is off, listen to them. We've discussed that previously here, and the fact remains that our innards do not lie. We need to learn to listen to them and trust what they're trying to tell us. It's the old adage about something sounding too good to be true.

Yet our desperation, need, and fear so often override our proper intuition.

What I discovered about myself when someone challenged me about *how* chanting supposedly "worked," asking for specific details and a practical explanation - remember "Buddhism is reason. Buddhism is common sense."??? Well, I tried to come up with some sort of explanation that didn't rely on some form of "It's just magic and you have to accept that it can't be rationally explained, okay?" and I couldn't. And that was the end of belief and faith (and practice) for me. But what I discovered after I realized I simply could not hope for magic to fix my problems is that I believed that I couldn't fix my problems. I could never survive, much less be successful - in anything! - unless I had some sort of supernatural assistance. I simply couldn't make it on my own, and without that proper supernatural contribution, I WOULD DIE!!

Remember, I was raised hard-core Evangelical Christian from birth - I have a cassette tape somewhere (remember those??) of me, at only 2 1/2 years old, reciting that silly Christmas story from Luke. The same one Linus fatuously and inanely recites in "A Charlie Brown Christmas" to make sure the show is Christian enough for the Christians in the audience? I hadn't even been taught - my mother had been drilling my 4-year-old brother on memorizing it, so that he could recite it at church (and thus be a properly little accessory to make her look good to her fancy church friends), and I overheard his indoctrination from my crib, where I was supposed to be sleeping. It's standard Christianity that you "need God/Jesus" and that you can't make it on your own - voila. Once I uncovered that tape recorder playing in my subconscious, I could deliberately shut it off. Such garbage. Such vile filth to poison a toddler's mind with.

You have *NO IDEA* how it feels to be free. Oh, wait - YOU mostly do :) But those who feel they need to chant to make it through their day are dragging themselves through their day, dragging a heavy chain attached to their necks, and thinking themselves fortunate.

Here's another very interesting video I found on Conformity. This is definitely one of the mechanisms they use in SGI to gain compliance.

[www.youtube.com]

Quote
meh
I couldn't watch but a few minutes of the FNCC crap; I have some kind of weird issue where I really have a lot of trouble watching people being humiliated ... it becomes almost physically painful. That video was absolutely excrutiating.

I had the same reaction, meh, exactly the same, both then (when I was in) and still now (watching these things on YouTube). I often put my head down, tried to look away, take a restroom break or otherwise find some excuse to get out of the room when these kinds of things started. Of course, I couldn't get away with it all the time, because after a while, they'll start to notice a pattern and then they'll come at you with the manipulation, "guidance" and "leader" interrogation.

****

Quote
corboy
Watch out for anything or anyone that equates "experience" or 'inspiration' with proof. It isnt.

You've just described EVERY gakkai cult org. "experience" that I've ever heard in my entire life. I used to sit in the audience and mentally poke holes in every experience I ever heard at cult org. meetings. Small district meetings were ridiculously easy to see the logical fallacies. The larger, more important venue meetings, however, just required a bit more sophistication to tease them out, but the same fallacies where hiding deep inside, subtle and camouflaged.

Quote
corboy
Many cults or aspiring inspiration peddlars rent rooms in famous universiites, medical centers, fancy hotels, seaside or beautiful wilderness retreat centers. This leads us to assume that the entity is endorsing them. No, it just means theyve rented a room.

This was the exact same variation scam that Ikeda (The Dear Leader) used to hijack the "Harvard" label and milk it for everything he could get out of it.

Quote
corboy
A silent meditation retreat should not trigger extreme emotions in too many people. You should not space out. You should not be encouraged to strain for certain kinds of experiences.

Again, you've just described what the chanting did to me. It made my mind numb.

Quote
corboy
There should be little trouble transitioning from the retreat to home life.

And..in any situation, period, if you find you have obsessions or craving that are not usual for you, emotions that you want to cling to in an addictive manner -- watch out.

And after huge cult events (major campaigns, Dear Leader visits, tozan, etc.), many members had a difficult time coming down from that "high" and settling back into daily life. In response, they'd ramp up their cult participation in eager anticipation of the next big event, their next "high" / emotional fix.

****

Quote
meh
I'd add to corboy's fact-checking suggestion to check those facts with multiple sources. For every sgi-is-a-cult posting, there are tens of others that will pooh-pooh that. I go back to my original contact with sgi in '02 or '03; there was a reason I was creeped out when I heard all that chanting going on; I just had another memory pop in my head, too. This occurred after I started practicing - I called a friend who lives in another time zone and happened to catch her when she was at krg; in an attempt to "ignore" my call on her cell, she accidentally answered it (without saying anything) and hung up. I could hear people chanting, and I experienced that same element of creepitude.

I still have a slight aversion to hearing the chanting. I can't help it. I have to consciously temper my instant, reflexive reaction to it, which is one of revulsion and disgust. I think it stems from years of having it forced into my head and then regurgitated out of my mouth.

How sad for those who are mentally chained to that way of life and mindset. I get a similar reaction to seeing this [www.youtube.com]. For those who get something from it, more power to them, but it is definitely NOT for me, that's for sure.


- Hitch

At this point, I see cults or potential cults all around - whether you're talking evangelical Christians, jews for jesus, robots for ikeda, dahn yoga . . . it just all seems like the same brain-sucking deal to me. Whether it's a church full of people praising the lord or a roomful of them chanting, it just seems the same - hand over your ability to think at the door, and don't worry your pretty little head again . . . we'll tell you what to think, who to talk to, what to read and, most importantly who to trust and who not to trust.

I remember how I felt after attending rock the era a couple of years ago . . . walking on clouds of endorphins, totally disconnected from reality. It's a wonder I was able to drive home. And it seems like it took a couple of days to come down from it completely.

TaP,

I am not concerned about bad things happening to me as a result of mishandling of a scroll, aka religious object. I had a very good relationship with the priests back in the day. They were kind, courteous, respectful, contemplative, and never failed to take the time to answer my questions. Some of these men have spent the better part of their adult lives studying, chanting, and sharing what they've learned with others. I respect that. Whether or not I believe, I respect the fact that they believe. For me, it's a matter of respect. I have respect for the priesthood. In turn, the priesthood has respect for the gohonzon. Therefore, I will make an effort to return it to those who hold it dear to their spirituality and beliefs.

As for why did I pickup a butsudan from Craigslist... My mom was considering chanting again. it made her feel good. Her butsudan was damaged, and I ran across one locally on Craigslist. I love and respect my mother. If it makes her feel good, and it does her no harm, then I support and respect her decisions. She has no interest in SGI, organized religion, or anything of that chatter. She liked the way she felt when she was practicing. I consider respect to be a meaningful attribute, and I do my best to practice that attribute in my daily life. In short, this entire endeavor is one of respect and support. I see know reason to throw into the trash that which another holds dear when it takes so little effort on my part to return it.

I've found a lot of helpful and interesting information on this MB. I can see how many would be jaded by or downright disdainful of SGI and all things related to Nichiren Daishonin. I am not at that point. I do, however respect those who are and am hopeful that sometime, somehow, they will find the means to let go of that negativity and fill their lives/minds/spirits with positive. Like my mom always told me, life is a lesson - what doesn't kill us, will surely make us stronger.

I wish you all the best. I really am sorry that SGI sucked up so much of your life.

SS

Quote
TaitenAndProud

Quote

It came with a Butsadan I picked up for free on Craigslist. It's also not an SGI gohonzon, it's a Nikken ghonzon. I have never been an "SGI" member. I left NSA in 1985. Like I said, I still have a bit of ingrained respect for the gohonzon - I can't say why. I just want to get it back to the temple - but not enough to spend my time and gas doing so.

The gohonzon - regardless of which iteration - is a mass-produced xerox copy of a document you'll never see that was produced with the explicit purpose of selling to fund the priesthood. NST started printing bunches of copies on the Gakkai's suggestion as a way of supporting itself after WWII. In fact, it was Toda (if memory serves) who came up with the bright idea of "pious tourism" (aka tozan) as a way to funnel more believers' money into the priesthood. I started with a Nikken gohonzon (which I bought from NSA) and then I traded it in for the "approved" SGI gohonzon because it was prettier (which I also paid for). Neither organization did me any favors; I PURCHASED these objects and thus they're mine to do with as I please. Of course, if either organization wished to buy them back from me, they certainly could have offered, but neither did O_O

There's nothing "special" or "magical" about the gohonzon. It's no different than a page of an advertisement - it's simply something a group produced piles and piles AND PILES of in order to make money for itself. In fact, the Dai-Gohonzon was made some time after Nichiren's death in order for the splinter sect created by Nikko to claim ultimate authority and legitimacy over the rest of the Nichiren splinter sects (there are several - several of the high priests at the time of Nichiren's death started their own Nichiren schools). Nichiren had no part in making the Dai-Gohonzon - that was all Nikko, who then claimed it was the real deal and that, since HE'd managed to abscond with it, it proved that HE had the only legitimate school. Such is the nature of intolerant religions - they always claim to be the Only One.

But by all means - do whatever you wish with it. I remember my second YWD HQ leader, when I asked her what they did with returned gohonzons, telling me that the priests (this was still NSA) burned them, but that the priest who was assigned the task typically suffered some sort of accidental injury afterward. What a load. Don't worry - nothing's going to happen to you (or anyone else) regardless of what you do with it. It's just a piece of paper with a coupla cheap wooden dowels and a bit of glue. And some string. Can't forget the string.

My personal opinion is that the rightful place for that emblem of spiritual enslavement is in the next outgoing trash, but that's just me :)

Why did you go to the trouble of picking up a butsudan off Craigslist, even for free, since you don't practice that kind of Buddhism, Sporatica? Just curious.

This quote from the interview with Marjoe Gortner stuck in my mind:

Quote

"When I was traveling," he said, looking back on the old days, "I'd see someone who wanted to get saved in one of my meetings, and he was so open and bubbly in his desire to get the Holy Ghost. It was wonderful and very fresh, but four years later I'd return and that person might be a hard-nosed intolerant Christian because he had Christ. That's when the danger comes in. People want an experience. They want to feel good, and their lives can be helped by it. But then as you start moving into the operation of the thing, you get into controlling people and power and money."

The religious fervor that burns, that passion, cannot be supported. It's exhausting and isolating. Because it makes the person odd, that person finds himself more and more limited socially, until his circle of friends consists entirely of those of his same religious group. And no matter how much the leadership exhorts and pushes the membership toward that peak of faith-passion, it is *exhausting*. That sort of energy output is a temporary thing, and it leaves the person drained.

I remember back when I was a YWD leader hearing other leaders talking about how the big NSA bus trips of back-in-the-day (of which I went on TWO) weren't so great, because so many financially struggling members would overextend themselves to go, trusting that they were "making the cause" to be able to pay the bills afterward, only to find themselves in dire financial straits upon their return - and no magical get-out-of-debt-free card waiting to reward them for the "cause" they'd made so whole-heartedly. A lot of members were lost due to these boondoggles.

Remember how we were supposed to aim for 100,000 members at a convention in New Orleans? I think that's where it was. 1990 or so. Anyhow, after a year or so of promoting it, the conference was abruptly canceled - what I heard was that New Orleans didn't have the infrastructure to handle an influx of 100,000 tourists all at once. Not enough hotel rooms etc. Sounded fishy, but I was rather relieved that it was canceled, regardless of the reason. Those bus trips were a pain!

Fast forward to about 2001. Here in San Diego. Our local SGI chapter (or whatever) was putting on a haunted house at the local kaikan, and I was contributing. We adult division assistants were told repeatedly that the "rhythm" from "President Ikeda" was to let the youth division lead. Well, guess what? The youth division had neither the experience nor the money to make it happen, and the organization's rigid mindset of "the youth division HAS to lead" resulted in an inferior setup and several youth division members who got caught up in the moment and overextended themselves financially (when we adult division members were standing ready with funds to contribute, but not allowed to) and then disappeared from activities. Stupid stupid stupid.

Funny, I was thinking about Marjoe Gortner yesterday morning.

I get what you're saying, sporatica. Years ago, I worked for an accounting firm; after tax season was over, all of the partners took a vacation. One of the other underlings, knowing that I enjoyed cooking, suggested I make a pasta lunch. I sent him off to the grocery store with a list, and when he returned I began cooking. As I was browning the Italian sausage, he came into the kitchen (there was a full kitchen in the office suite, complete with pots and pans) and said "Oh! You're using Mr. So-and-so's Passover pots." I was horrified! I'm not Jewish, I didn't think that something terrible would happen to me or Mr. So-and-so but, obviously, since he took the trouble to keep it safely un-trafed, it was a big deal to him. I wasn't concerned about him finding out - he would have been none the wiser, but out of deference to what was clearly important to him, I wanted to do what I could. I called a dear friend, who is knowledgeable about such things, and she said that I had two choices as to how to re-purify the pots. I opted for the shortcut (the longer process being to bury the offended objects in the ground for a year), and I snuck into the office over the weekend to boil rocks in them (for an hour, if I recall correctly).

Of course, this was bushwah. Pots, like a piece of paper in a wooden box or little plastic container, cannot be offended. At the same time, I do still have a couple of friends who continue to practice; out of respect for them as people, returning my gohonzons to the community center will be the thing to do for me. I'll do that at my convenience, but that's what I've decided. It feels like the right thing - that's just for me, and I have no issue with whatever anyone else decides to do with theirs. It's a little stiff for toilet paper and an odd size to line the bottom of a birdcage, but whatever - it's a very personal choice, and the only "right" or "wrong" lies with how your feel about the whole thing.

Quote:

I've found a lot of helpful and interesting information on this MB. I can see how many would be jaded by or downright disdainful of SGI and all things related to Nichiren Daishonin. I am not at that point. I do, however respect those who are and am hopeful that sometime, somehow, they will find the means to let go of that negativity and fill their lives/minds/spirits with positive. Like my mom always told me, life is a lesson - what doesn't kill us, will surely make us stronger.

I think that it's important to understand that our anger also keeps us connected to the organization in a way, and at some point it will be important for us to let go of that. We're still putting energy into sgi and giving it more space in our heads than it deserves. For me, this whole experience has been a profound lesson in personal autonomy and learning to think more critically. Every post on this mb has been of value, and reading about the experiences of others has been eye-opening . . . fuzzy things are snapping into focus, and I can't emphasize strongly enough how important it's been for me to realize that I'm not in this alone.

So! American Independence Day! Let's all celebrate our freedom from cult-speak, cult-think and superstition!

MEH - Thank you.

I try my best to do what I feel is the right thing to do. I really appreciate your sharing your "Passover Pot" story with me. It feels like, you "get it." After all, when push comes to shove, I have to live with myself, and myself alone. I'm just following my gut. That's the best I can do. I trust my gut. I find that when I override those intuitive feelings, I wind up with regrets and nagging woulda, coulda, shoulda feelings. I honestly can't say if the gohonzon holds any hidden secrets, and it really doesn't matter to ME. Bottom line is that it's an important object to others. Who am I to judge or criticize their beliefs?

Quote
meh
Funny, I was thinking about Marjoe Gortner yesterday morning.

I get what you're saying, sporatica. Years ago, I worked for an accounting firm; after tax season was over, all of the partners took a vacation. One of the other underlings, knowing that I enjoyed cooking, suggested I make a pasta lunch. I sent him off to the grocery store with a list, and when he returned I began cooking. As I was browning the Italian sausage, he came into the kitchen (there was a full kitchen in the office suite, complete with pots and pans) and said "Oh! You're using Mr. So-and-so's Passover pots." I was horrified! I'm not Jewish, I didn't think that something terrible would happen to me or Mr. So-and-so but, obviously, since he took the trouble to keep it safely un-trafed, it was a big deal to him. I wasn't concerned about him finding out - he would have been none the wiser, but out of deference to what was clearly important to him, I wanted to do what I could. I called a dear friend, who is knowledgeable about such things, and she said that I had two choices as to how to re-purify the pots. I opted for the shortcut (the longer process being to bury the offended objects in the ground for a year), and I snuck into the office over the weekend to boil rocks in them (for an hour, if I recall correctly).

Of course, this was bushwah. Pots, like a piece of paper in a wooden box or little plastic container, cannot be offended. At the same time, I do still have a couple of friends who continue to practice; out of respect for them as people, returning my gohonzons to the community center will be the thing to do for me. I'll do that at my convenience, but that's what I've decided. It feels like the right thing - that's just for me, and I have no issue with whatever anyone else decides to do with theirs. It's a little stiff for toilet paper and an odd size to line the bottom of a birdcage, but whatever - it's a very personal choice, and the only "right" or "wrong" lies with how your feel about the whole thing.

Quote:

I've found a lot of helpful and interesting information on this MB. I can see how many would be jaded by or downright disdainful of SGI and all things related to Nichiren Daishonin. I am not at that point. I do, however respect those who are and am hopeful that sometime, somehow, they will find the means to let go of that negativity and fill their lives/minds/spirits with positive. Like my mom always told me, life is a lesson - what doesn't kill us, will surely make us stronger.

I think that it's important to understand that our anger also keeps us connected to the organization in a way, and at some point it will be important for us to let go of that. We're still putting energy into sgi and giving it more space in our heads than it deserves. For me, this whole experience has been a profound lesson in personal autonomy and learning to think more critically. Every post on this mb has been of value, and reading about the experiences of others has been eye-opening . . . fuzzy things are snapping into focus, and I can't emphasize strongly enough how important it's been for me to realize that I'm not in this alone.

So! American Independence Day! Let's all celebrate our freedom from cult-speak, cult-think and superstition!

Whether it be in the cult motherland, @ Cult U. [www.youtube.com] ("What's about to happen??!?" / "Everybody's a Rock Star!")

Or @ a cult org. bldg. [www.youtube.com] ("We are about to have a Rock Star experience." / "What's the name of this center?" "Tochigi." "Tochigi?" "Yeah, Tochigi", in Japanese "Tochigi is the NUMBER COOLEST PLACE!!!!" "YEAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!" --> see from 2:45 minute mark)*

Or Cult Org. USA NY HQ (Hi! Ethan Gelbaum!) [www.youtube.com]

Or Europe, it's all $GI Cult Org. [www.youtube.com] Love Bombing! [en.wikipedia.org]

(The first two clips are USA "YOUTH!" "leader" cult thought reform "training" trips to the motherland. The third is the manifest product of such trips and the fourth is the same principle applied to the cult org. Italian subsidiary.) (I've posted the first three before on this thread, but the fourth one is new.)

It doesn't matter where it's at, it's all the same = The Gakkai Cult Org..

****

*Incidentally, more on Tochigi, unfortunately, here [fukushima-diary.com] and here [enenews.com].

Confirmation bias = a double-edged sword. But, never mind that, just remember the hits, and forget the misses . . . . and all will be well. [en.wikipedia.org]



- Hitch

Typical hardcore $oka Gakkai International Cult Org. Pseudo-buddhist altar set up [www.youtube.com].

Take particular notice of The Dear Leader golden embossed / stamped signature with official "hanko" (Ikeda seal), golden framed certificate display piece AND the glossy full color photos behind glass (one is a common "poem" often handed out at larger cult meetings - usually printed in both Japanese and the person's home language, along with a photo of The Dear Leader). Golden gakkai cult emblem decorates the front of the butsudan (prayer altar) - these special emblems were made up after the official excommunication.

This is a hardcore gakkai cult member home altar set up. The only thing different from my time in, are the gakkai emblems and the heavier emphasis on The Dear Leader idolatry (it appears to be more out of the bag now).




- Hitch