I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers here and I'll get accused as being "soft on the SGI" but I'm going to say this anyhow. Sometimes it is useful to do a little self-inspection to ensure what you are doing is really accomplishing what you've hoped for, or if it is accomplishing the opposite.

Since the start of this thread many, many-moons ago, various posters here have wondered aloud whether or not Cult.org knew of the thread and what would they do to eradicate it since it represented a threat at one level or another.

Consider this, If I was a cult organization like Ikea.cult.org and I wanted to silence a particular source of opposition and discrediting voices who might cause my "members" to reflect on their participation (such as in this discussion board) there could be a potentially a wide range of approaches open to attempt to shut things down.

. I could attempt to squelch those voices through lawsuits and overt repression. Of course this points the finger back at cult.org and is very hard to deny.

. I could inject loyal "protectors" into any "contrary" MB and have them vigorously rebut every negative word stated against cult.org. ("Again, cult.org's shadowy presence is somewhat hard to hide.)

. I could attempt to trash the dissenting voices in order to discredit them. (Attack the messenger a'la Saul Alinsky - the motive itself risks pointing a finger back at cult.org again)

- or -

. I could inject some number of "detractors" whose job it would be to fill the message board with greater and greater volumes of over-the-top anti-cult.org rants, screeds and even vulgarity to the point where the board itself becomes toxic and known as being filled with "hate speech". Thereby diluting any reasoning or coherent messages there with volumes of slightly related but virulent diatribes. (And observers would say "This could never have been done by cult.org!)

So I'll leave it up to the individual reader to decide what alternative agendas could possibly be appearing here on this thread. Remember, cult.org has a great deal of money and an army of loyal foot-soldiers to draw from.

I'm just sayin.....

"Better out than in I always say" -- Shrek

Wakatta1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2013 09:12PM by wakatta1.

Quote
wakatta1
I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers here and I'll get accused as being "soft on the SGI" but I'm going to say this anyhow. Sometimes it is useful to do a little self-inspection to ensure what you are doing is really accomplishing what you've hoped for, or if it is accomplishing the opposite.

Since the start of this thread many, many-moons ago, various posters here have wondered aloud whether or not Cult.org knew of the thread and what would they do to eradicate it since it represented a threat at one level or another.

Consider this, If I was a cult organization like Ikea.cult.org and I wanted to silence a particular source of opposition and discrediting voices who might cause my "members" to reflect on their participation (such as in this discussion board) there could be a potentially a wide range of approaches open to attempt to shut things down.

. I could attempt to squelch those voices through lawsuits and overt repression. Of course this points the finger back at cult.org and is very hard to deny.

. I could inject loyal "protectors" into any "contrary" MB and have them vigorously rebut every negative word stated against cult.org. ("Again, cult.org's shadowy presence is somewhat hard to hide.)

. I could attempt to trash the dissenting voices in order to discredit them. (Attack the messenger a'la Saul Alinsky - the motive itself risks pointing a finger back at cult.org again)

- or -

. I could inject some number of "detractors" whose job it would be to fill the message board with greater and greater volumes of over-the-top anti-cult.org rants, screeds and even vulgarity to the point where the board itself becomes toxic and known as being filled with "hate speech". Thereby diluting any reasoning or coherent messages there with volumes of slightly related but virulent diatribes. (And observers would say "This could never have been done by cult.org!)

So I'll leave it up to the individual reader to decide what alternative agendas could possibly be appearing here on this thread. Remember, cult.org has a great deal of money and an army of loyal foot-soldiers to draw from.

I'm just sayin.....

"Better out than in I always say" -- Shrek

Wakatta1

I've thought the very same thing Wakatta. However, voicing doubts about the intentions and motivations of one or several of our comrades can lead to a witchhunt that would be counterproductive, don't you think so?

Mark

@Nichijew (Hi Mark)

I didn't put any attributions into my points for just exactly that reason. No sense in pushing things towards finger pointing, flame warring and all that nastiness. I just posed the question.

Essentially, everyone here is here because of a common cause, and I just wanted to suggest that the discussions here could have/might have trended towards an endpoint that complicates or eradicates the good that this thread has/might have/would have done. We are all here because of something attractive, nor is anything forcing us to read or believe in anything stated here.

So, as with any open MB, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Besides, who am I to judge the motivations of (unnamed and unattributed) others? Wasn't it Plato that said he was "just watching the shadows moving on the cave walls?" (a sentiment later echoed by John Lennon?)

cheers!

Wakatta1

@wakkatta has a point. I've tried to sift through the older part of the thread and it had been mentioned that there might be such shenanigans. The posts I had read are going on as far back as 2009. It is hard to read when there's all kind of nothing in between, but when you have 600+ plus pages it's almost welcome. Phew 10 easy pages to fly through. It kind of makes it easy for us lazy bastards out here. I agree it's annoying but at the same time I've come to realize even if they are full of crap that no matter what, those posts might actually still serve a useful purpose. That purpose is the same we are all here for isn't it? To get out the truth of what is going on in the org. and that it is not just a benign group dedicated to world peace. From what past people have posted you can get a clear conclusion without having to read all 600 + pages, which is this: They want your labor, your time, your money and anything else people are willing to give. They use certain types of people to lead, certain types of people to keep people in, and certain types to lure people into the org. Who's to say they aren't using certain types to spy on or pollute message boards. I suspect it happens on many other religious boards. Right now this is the one I am most interested in since the experience is still very fresh and I haven't got all the anger out of my system. As long as the goal is attained to keep people aware of the negatives of the org, then all is good.

"Emerging From The Earth . . . "

[www.youtube.com]

"1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 . . . 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 . . . "

"THANK YOU!"

"Yeeeeaaaaaahhhh!" (Obligatory guttural applause / support.)

"Good Job!"

(Don't forget to learn the "First 5 count breakdown" [www.youtube.com] and side view [www.youtube.com] (looks more like back view to me) for perfecting The Cult Master's Dance.


CULT!


- Hitch

Quote

What the [newspaper's] contention amounts to, at bottom, is simply the doctrine that a man engaged in combat with superstition should be very polite to superstition. This, I fear, is nonsense. The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.

True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy.

II

The meaning of religious freedom, I fear, is sometimes greatly misapprehended. It is taken to be a sort of immunity, not merely from governmental control but also from public opinion. A dunderhead gets himself a long-tailed coat, rises behind the sacred desk, and emits such bilge as would gag a Hottentot. Is it to pass unchallenged? If so, then what we have is not religious freedom at all, but the most intolerable and outrageous variety of religious despotism. Any fool, once he is admitted to holy orders, becomes infallible. Any half-wit, by the simple device of ascribing his delusions to revelation, takes on an authority that is denied to all the rest of us.

I do not know how many Americans entertain the ideas defended so ineptly by poor Bryan, but probably the number is very large. They are preached once a week in at least a hundred thousand rural churches, and they are heard too in the meaner quarters of the great cities. Nevertheless, though they are thus held to be sound by millions, these ideas remain mere rubbish. Not only are they not supported by the known facts; they are in direct contravention of the known facts. No man whose information is sound and whose mind functions normally can conceivably credit them. They are the products of ignorance and stupidity, either or both.

What should be a civilized man's attitude toward such superstitions? It seems to me that the only attitude possible to him is one of contempt. If he admits that they have any intellectual dignity whatever, he admits that he himself has none. If he pretends to a respect for those who believe in them, he pretends falsely, and sinks almost to their level. When he is challenged he must answer honestly, regardless of tender feelings. - H. L. Mencken, Aftermath of the Scopes Monkey Trial [www.positiveatheism.org]

It has long been a favorite tactic among the indoctrinated to attack the critic's approach, wording, or even appearance. "Oh, look! He made a grammatical error! That means we are justified in dismissing everything he might have to say!" "*Le gasp*! YOU have offended me with colorful language! That means I am justified in dismissing everything you might have to say!" "How can anyone who looks like a dirty hippy expect anyone to listen to him??" "Why are you so angry?" Etc.

Those who take umbrage at colorful language, for example, are those looking for an excuse to reject and dismiss the points being made, and for them, any excuse will do. With such people, there is absolutely nothing you can do to be acceptable in their eyes, as they simply don't want to hear what you have to say. So attempting to please them is an approach that is guaranteed to fail, but that's what they want you to do. No matter how neutral and plain your language, they will still claim to be offended because, in the end, they have no intention of listening to you and, being rank cowards, they want to blame it on YOU so that it's all YOUR fault (and not theirs for being closed-minded and unapproachable).

Personally, I side with the great HL Mencken, quoted above, that we gain *nothing* by bending over backwards to be polite about superstition and those who profit off others' misery. This was the typical reaction of whites to the protests of the civil rights movement: "They are so rude and offensive! They can't expect *anyone* to listen to them when they're so impolite." And, of course, what is required of the protesters in this case is to be utterly silent, obedient, acquiescent - and easy for the privileged majority to continue to ignore.

To summarize: You choose your way, and I'll choose mine. I would certainly never presume to instruct you how to express yourself, and I'm not accepting instruction for anyone on how I should be expressing myself. I will choose for myself, and I suggest you do the same.

Absolutely essential reading on the $GI cult [sokagakkailies.wordpress.com]. Should be read by every prospective, new and current member of this pseudo-buddhist cult org..

With only some very minor points of disagreement (e.g., such as use of the label "brainwashing", which I support, because in my experience, it definitely applies to what I saw when I was in), it's a right on the mark description of the $oka Gakkai in the motherland and its International subsidiaries.

People should inform themselves as to the true nature of the $GI Cult Org.. It's never too late.

****

Some of that "brainwashing" evidence, [www.youtube.com], for all to see with their own eyes:

Gakkai Cult Org. ESD (Elementary School Division), cult meeting performance:

(Person filming starts off with an "awwwww", as in, "How Cute!")

(Two little girls, take their places as the microphone is adjusted to their height.)

"Ifu-dodo-no-uta means to stand with a determined united spirit that cannot be defeated. It is the title of this song for our fan dance. This song was written in 1955 by a brand new member who was a unit chief for his district. In Kyoto, this song became the district shakubuku fight song and they soon became a chapter. In those days, President Ikeda said, 'this is a great song, let's sing this song all of Japan and the world.'"

(Next little girl speaks.)

"Years later, Sensei said, 'I led this song so many times, being defeated by nothing, absolutely overcoming everything. Majestically and with dignity, we have advanced with this spirit to this day. This is a wonderful song, a mighty proud song. That's why I have always loved this song of 'Ifu-dodo-no Uta'"

(Loud applause follows.)

"I would like to ask you to always continue advancing with this song of 'Ifu-dodo-no Uta' in your heart."

(Both little girls recite in unison . . .)

"Sensei, with our dance, we pledge to live with the spear of this song in our hearts."

("Aaawwwwww!" and more applause from the audience.) The juxtaposition, later in the video, of the kiddies performing with the original Dear Leader clip on the big TV screen off the side (butudan flanked by cult org. flags on both sides), . . . . . . (to me) is chilling.

And here is that original [www.youtube.com], for reference.

CULT!




- Hitch

PS - Gakkai Cult Org. "YOUTH!" indoctrination and manipulative "YOUTH!" Ikeda-bot automaton borg behavioral patterns are pet-peeves of mine. The above kiddy clip, is step one, in how it all starts.

Here's a suggestion--identify posts that you found especially valuable to this discussion.

Then list them and the links under the title SGI Classic Posts or SGI Golden Oldies or something like that.

That way, if someone new joins the discussion someone here can direct them to run a search under 'all dates" for "SGI Classic Posts" or "SGI Golden Oldies"

Sort of like looking at all music ever produced during a given decade and identifying the most significant contributions.

Note: This message board is over ten years old. The only way to arrange a search that covers the entire duration is to select the 'all dates' option.

Quote
dasutari
I feel that I must weigh in my opinion as a current SGI-Member, and I hope my views can be heard without burning me at the stake as a member.

When I started to see the comments of ex-SGI members on this website and other, I was in shock. This is because the behavior and feeling they seemed to be conveying seemed to be nothing like the organization I was a part of, in very key ways.

I think that maybe my region's chapter is very different from others. When I joined, I read the material, including books written by Ikeda. All of these messages were about positive thinking, cultural understanding, and ambition. And then I got into the chanting. My life started to improve, not because of some magic chant that grants wishes, but because I felt more motivated, more driven to do good in the world. I will address the concerns one by one.

1. Ikeda
Yes, this man has a lot of power. And I do hate the concept of New Komeito. I think that he does have some very meaningful lessons to teach, however. I would never compare him to King Jr. and Ghandi, but it is important to note that even they were not pure people. They both did things I disagree with. As such, I disagree with alot Ikeda has done. There are some things about King Jr. and Ghandi I do not like at all, but they still have very important things to learn. And in my chapter of the organization, we all read what he has to say, but were not afraid to have a laugh at his expense. MOST (there are some bad apples as with any religion) of my fellow members think Ikeda his too prevalent, he is important but minor compared the real source. In contrast, catholics beleve that the pope is next to god on earth, and his judgment is infallible! Ikeda is very fallible, a smart man, but oh so fallible.

2. Chanting
In my region we are very discouraged from chanting for material goods or person gain. Chanting to have money to feed your family? ok. Chanting to win the lottery. NO. chanting for fancy things? NOOO. We are encouraged to chant for ourselves, but also more importantly others in suffering. We are told that simply chanting to the Gohonzon will not grant wishes, it is a tool to inspire us to do better. Chanting, I was told, is meaningless and useless without REAL EFFORT.

3. Lotus Sutra > other sutras.
I was told that the lotus sutra was the most important sutra, the foundation of this Buddhism. When I asked if I should read the other sutras, they said by all means noting is lost in searching for more wisdom, just pay special attention to the lotus sutra.

4. Nichiren Soshu
I brought up the needles hate, and most agreed with me. They don't agree with the idea of a priest, and they do believe that it is the wrong way to practice, but at least in my chapter we ignore them. I could never picture us chanting for their ill will! O.o

5. "Ask Too Many Questions"
My regional leaders praised me for my willingness to ask so many questions. They told me that one should not follow another just because they say too, but because I learn it for myself.

6. Peace
This is a religion based on peace and living a good life. And that's what I do. So I don't appreciate being told i'm brainwashed. Oh no, I want to help out my coummunity. Me and my friends are starting a peace initiative, a NON-religious one, at my school because of our faith. What's wrong and brainwashed about that?

As you can see, I am very surprised by others experiences. It also makes me nervous. Is our region an exception? If the top leaders of SGI came to our community center, would they be aghast at our behavior? This is very disconcerning to me.

I would love any thoughts. I can see know why people don't like the SGI, but I honestly belive that this buddhism, practiced the way we practice it in my town, is positive and not a cult. Maybe in the main HQ in Japan it is, and if thats the case, I will continue to practice this buddhism away from the SGI. But the people in my town are real, good people.

Hi and thanks for sharing. The important thing to remember is that the Lotus Sutra is but one of hundreds of sutras. There is no such belief in Buddhism that the Lotus Sutra is THE only one, the BEST sutra. Only Nichiren believed this because he believed in an end-time apocalyptic era. He saw the earthquakes, other natural disasters, wars, as "evidence" that the Japanese were being punished. This is why he went about trashing all other forms of Buddhism, and that was why he was banished to Sado Island.

Just think of it, the man is fighting with others, telling the Zen that they are causing the calamities in the world! Of course they thought he was nuts. His books and teachings are the letters he wrote to his students, would be students, while on that island.

WHen I started chanting I too loved it! I was sick and couldnt walk and after three months my hip pain went away and I could work and live again. But my pain came back a couple years later, and Ive lived with a degenerative hip and spine conditions for thirty years. THe Buddha said that the only way to end suffering, our individual suffering, was to attain enlightenment. The way to attain enlightenment was to understand and experience "emptiness", and they become enlightened. The only way to experience emptiness is through meditation. Why is it that there is no practice of other Buddhist texts, no meditation, and no conversations about the nature of emptiness in Nichiren Shoshu's Buddhism? Because he was a monk during the Kamakura period where drastic changes were occurring in Japanese Buddhism.

I say it was a cult because it was a cult. I was not allowed to ask questions. I was told that meditation was useless, and when I refused to buy the ridiculous jargon World Tribune publication one month, I was told that I was "heavy", by a senior leader who was sitting in my house, during my time, eating my food, as my guest! They couldn't take no for an answer. And when we asked questions yes we were accused of being Taiten.

I have been a Buddhist in the TIbetan lineage now for 15 years and I have never once been told that I was heavy. To understand the differences between the Theravada, the Mahayana and the Vajrayana is very important. Some of my teachers are clearly enlightened, and I saw the same in my travels to India, Malaysia, and other countries. Buddhism is not about selling monthly magazines, candles and incense.

And then there is the whole story about how the Soka Gakkai hired detectives in US Attorney Janet Reno's law offices to try to plant fictitious evidence in the Department of Justice's' database! And there are so many other horror stories, around the world. Yes, the Lotus Sutra is an important writing by Nagarjuna, an Indian philosopher and Buddhist. But it is just ONE of many sutras and tantras in Buddhism.

The sad fact is that because westerners don't know much about Buddhism, they are willing to believe. They are trusting, as I was. I saw the foolishness when we were sent out on midnight runs to recruit students at Harvard, and Boston University. Our "leaders" had the recruitment tactics down to an art, and they learned that from the Japanese senior leaders. The rest of us, we were blind. I am happy that I have an inquisitive mind, and that I am able to think and act for myself. I wasted seven years of my life in that group. Seven years! And no, their was nothing good about it because even though it claims to be a "Value Creation Society" the Soka Gakkai is a money-hungry organization, and it is no wonder the HIgh Priest excommunicated and ousted the lay organization.

Quite simply, the SGI is a cult. I have a Japanese friend and he tells me how his psychotic and homicidal father was allowed to live with his family and how members "encouraged" his mother not to divorce her husband, but to chant for his happiness...That lasted for a while, and then he stabbed her with a knife, nearly killing her. Today of course, members do not visit her. She is taiten, she is damaged goods. So much for compassion. I could write a book about the stories I have seen and heard. They are all the same.

Recently a stranger from India wrote to me about his wife. He told me that she had started chanting with the SGI people and that she had really changed and was always trying to get him to chant. He later wrote again and told me that the SGI in their group was telling members that during the time of the Buddha there was no such thing as monks or priests. That is so wrong and totally a lie.

I think the lay organization continues to speak ill of monks because they have lost many members (i.e., money) to the main church. I saw the posters of Daisaku Ikeda in these thousand dollar silk suits, posted on slum walls in India. Here they will make many new members, because of the caste system, and those individuals, mostly lower caste Hindus who are not allowed to participate in many of the Hindu rituals because of their caste, seek to belong, and for a small fee, the SGI will accept them. The sad part is that they are not practicing Buddhism.

I want to say that Buddhism is not about peace. There is no where in the teachings of the Buddha that he mentions creating an organization, a church, or anything like that, for peace. That is the most ridiculous thing about the SGI and shows how they have perverted Buddhism so much. Buddhism is about awakening, enlightenment, and that is all!

So, again, if you are happy, that is fine. But you really have to go out into the world and read about Buddhism and ask why is it that we don't meditate? Why is Nichiren Shoshu the ONLY Buddhist sect that doesn't meditate? Because Nichiren was out of touch with reality. He had a martyr complex, and that is why he was kicked out of his village. If he was a monk, at the time, he broke most of his vows simply because of the things he said and how he acted towards others. If he was here today, and we sent him to a psychoanalyst, surely they would have diagnosed him as a borderline personality!

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