Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: February 10, 2013 07:46AM
History:
I ran across this summary on another cult help site:
And I wonder who started those rumors about Ikeda...hmmmm?
Edit: The link above is to one page of a multi-page article that is very good if anyone's interested. You can page forward/back at the bottom of the article.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 07:49AM by TaitenAndProud.
I ran across this summary on another cult help site:
Now, back in the day,I remember hearing whispers about *wooden* gohonzons that had been made for (to reward) certain high-ranking leaders, but now I'm kind of confused about the details - were they telling me that it was the Hokkeko that was giving out these wooden gohonzons? Yes, that's it! They were Nichiren Shoshu lay organization (Hokkeko), and they were *black* and, naturally, really creepy looking! :P I heard about those post-2000. But I never heard about these wooden gohonzon replicas for the community centers! That's quite a revelation! I had heard about Ikeda apologizing to Taiseki-Ji in 1979 over...something, but I was never quite sure what it was. The general idea was that the priesthood were a bunch of overly sensitive prima donnas who were always getting upset and hysterical over nothing, so President Ikeda, in a demonstration of his greatness and lofty character, apologized just to make them feel better. I never heard *ANYTHING* about replica Dai-Gohonzons!!Quote
In the 1970s, rumours of Ikeda being the reincarnation of Nichiren spread and Tai-seki Temple pressed Ikeda for a retraction. Ikeda later said that 'Can a person such as I ...be thought of as a living god or a Buddha-incarnation ? It is sheer nonsense !.....' But the rumour persisted, albeit in an underground fashion.
In 1975, Soka made 8 wooden Dai-Gohonzons for Soka Kaikans (community centres) in Japan, USA and Europe. The then High Priest, Nittatsu, threatened to excommunicate Soka and Ikeda later apologised to the Tai-seki Temple, withdrawing all wooden Dai-Gohonzons. In 1979, Ikeda resigned as President to take responsibility for the incident but still remains as its de-facto leader.
This time, however, the dispute had become so petty and nasty that there was no hope of reconciliation. Nichiren Shoshu charged that Soka had deviated and betrayed its doctrine in 'scope and depth', and that Soka activities and meetings were centered on Ikeda's Guidance and not on Gosho (Nichiren's Major Writings), meaning 'following people rather than the Law'. Nichiren Shoshu also stripped Ikeda from the position of So-ko-to (General Representative for Lay Believers) and expelled him from Nichiren Shoshu. [www.culthelp.info]
And I wonder who started those rumors about Ikeda...hmmmm?
Edit: The link above is to one page of a multi-page article that is very good if anyone's interested. You can page forward/back at the bottom of the article.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 07:49AM by TaitenAndProud.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: February 10, 2013 10:06AM
Say, from that "culthelp" site, above, I just noticed some striking similarities between the modern development of the SGI and the much earlier development of Christianity, despite coming from completely different cultures, but I don't want to burden the board with it. If anyone is interested, drop me a PM!
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Freeheartandmind
()
Date: February 10, 2013 10:29AM
This board has been hijacked by an SGI apologist, if you have not visited in a while you will not recognize it. One insufferable and overbearing new poster is dominating the thread. This thread really needs to get back on track, there has been a chilling effect due to this poster's relentless aggressiveness in attacking those she does not agree with. SGI members desiring support in getting out will no longer find it here, they will find arguments and more arguments from this person, whose point of view is all that matters to her. She is SGI personified! My way or the highway! Don't agree with me, well you are stupid and something is wrong with you. I have all the answers!
I hate having to go ad hominem, I prefer to debate ideas instead of personalities but this poster's behavior is over the top. The enjoyment of one of my favorite boards has been destroyed because I will not accept one person trying to overpower everyone else by the sheer quantity of her words. Come on people, don't be sheeple, stand up for yourselves. This is SGI all over again, "leader" and everything. Sickening.
Yes, I am talking about "Taiten and Proud", no more PMs for me, whatever I have to say will be said here for all to see.
I hate having to go ad hominem, I prefer to debate ideas instead of personalities but this poster's behavior is over the top. The enjoyment of one of my favorite boards has been destroyed because I will not accept one person trying to overpower everyone else by the sheer quantity of her words. Come on people, don't be sheeple, stand up for yourselves. This is SGI all over again, "leader" and everything. Sickening.
Yes, I am talking about "Taiten and Proud", no more PMs for me, whatever I have to say will be said here for all to see.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
rattyboy
()
Date: February 10, 2013 12:56PM
@freeheartandmind. I had to go through a lot of tand p posts to get get back to my post from a few days back after the 'wtf' from tand p. Since we don't know each other off of this board, I can take that 'wtf' as a light-hearted mention of confusion, or maybe even calling me incompetent. I suppose that doesn't matter too much in the context here- (like, perhaps in real life I would just see it as kidding around from a boisterous personality)- and there was the recent mention from t and p offering to share through pm rather than filling up the board. The shifting positions, however, are suspect. I'm open to people being on the fence or including suggestions of problems with the priesthood , but there seems to be attack mode employed. I'd like to know what others think also. I'm not well versed in board etiquette, this being the only one I come back to. I'm surprised rrmoderator hasn't chimed in asking folks to simmer down, or maybe more appropriately point out some specifics to Taiten and Proud. I'm also trying to fully take in the 'apologist' concept. I'll do my studying. (I do think it is appropriate that you brought this to our attention!)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 01:08PM by rattyboy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 01:08PM by rattyboy.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: February 10, 2013 02:53PM
I can take that 'wtf' as a light-hearted mention of confusion
This, BTW, was the correct interpretation.
I suppose that doesn't matter too much in the context here- (like, perhaps in real life I would just see it as kidding around from a boisterous personality)
Again, this is the correct interpretation.
As far as accusations of "SGI Apologist" go, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find, in any of my posts, my defending the SGI's various shenanigans. All I suggested was avoiding blanket condemnation of the SGI, which is consistent with the recommendations of Rick Ross on how to help victims disengage. Attacking what they're attached to doesn't help. I made the point that, by simply sharing our personal experiences, the pathology within the organization is apparent, and we don't need to compromise our neutrality by generalizing outside of what we've experienced personally. We don't need to go on the attack - that simply results in this forum appearing hostile to potential joiners.
IMHO, it's one thing to say, "Here is what the SGI was promoting, which apparently had no other purpose than to inflate the membership rolls", and it's a completely different thing to say, "SGI members are brainwashed and exploited."
Compare this statement to the Rick Ross recommendation below:
While I was in Soka Spirit, I stood firmly for a generous attitude of magnanimity and refraining from attacking the temple members' beliefs, that our focus should be kindness and concern simply for their happiness and peace of mind as fellow human beings. This did not go over very well, but it was the only perspective I could honestly endorse. Clearly, I had to leave.
Please read carefully the following comments - it is clear who is on the attack and who is using insults and threats. And it's not me.
Cases in point:
Apparently, there is a regular contributor here who I completely rub the wrong way. That is unfortunate, but c'est la vie. It happens. That person need never worry about my directing a future post in his/her direction again - s/he is now invisible to me. Finally, if one looks back over the last 5 or 6 pages of posts, there are *several* very lengthy posts by several different posters. So if there's going to be a length limit, perhaps every member of the forum should be made aware of it. If a length limit is going to be imposed on only *one* poster - and that at the insistence of *another* poster (!) - this should be a concern to all.
This, BTW, was the correct interpretation.
I suppose that doesn't matter too much in the context here- (like, perhaps in real life I would just see it as kidding around from a boisterous personality)
Again, this is the correct interpretation.
As far as accusations of "SGI Apologist" go, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find, in any of my posts, my defending the SGI's various shenanigans. All I suggested was avoiding blanket condemnation of the SGI, which is consistent with the recommendations of Rick Ross on how to help victims disengage. Attacking what they're attached to doesn't help. I made the point that, by simply sharing our personal experiences, the pathology within the organization is apparent, and we don't need to compromise our neutrality by generalizing outside of what we've experienced personally. We don't need to go on the attack - that simply results in this forum appearing hostile to potential joiners.
IMHO, it's one thing to say, "Here is what the SGI was promoting, which apparently had no other purpose than to inflate the membership rolls", and it's a completely different thing to say, "SGI members are brainwashed and exploited."
Compare this statement to the Rick Ross recommendation below:
Quote
I do not agree that blanket condemnation of Cult $GI is a bad thing, or as you put it, "intolerant". One reason Rick Ross created this forum is to bring to the light the practices of harmful groups, and most posters on this board before you agreed that this org does harm to people. You don't have to even be aware that harm is being done to be harmed! Ever heard of blissful ignorance? I am hardly intolerant and you really should not be so quick to label people you do not know.
I feel that my call for magnanimity and restraint is consistent with the Rick Ross recommendations, above. You are, of course, free to disagree. And I am always willing to accommodate and embrace those who need to express negativity as part of their healing process. Been there, done that! I'm simply in a different place at present. Perspectives can change over time.Quote
Rick Ross: Remember these two important points at all times:
Don't be critical of spirituality, idealism and/or greater awareness. The stated goals and ideals of the group may have been laudable--despite its behavior.
Don't try to convince or convert a former cult member about your personal beliefs. Respect their process of recovery and personal discovery. They will make their own choices in their own time and may require a rest from church, religion, and even awareness groups for awhile.
While I was in Soka Spirit, I stood firmly for a generous attitude of magnanimity and refraining from attacking the temple members' beliefs, that our focus should be kindness and concern simply for their happiness and peace of mind as fellow human beings. This did not go over very well, but it was the only perspective I could honestly endorse. Clearly, I had to leave.
Please read carefully the following comments - it is clear who is on the attack and who is using insults and threats. And it's not me.
Cases in point:
^ Comparing SGI members to illicit drug users. Nice!Quote
I roundly condemn SGI, it is a despicable organization. I do not condemn the people who feel they benefit from it (illicit drug users feel that they benefit from their addiction too, so feeling that you benefit from something does not make it a good thing), but I do hope they wake up and realize the truth about the what they really belong to.
QED.Quote
I private messaged you because it was appropriate given the subject matter, Wakatta1 scolded you also ON THIS BOARD or did his sarcasm go over your head? You were WRONG to post what you did, and you owe him an apology and this entire board for your attempts to monopolize it. It is RUDE to REPEATEDLY post walls and walls of text, have you ever participated on a MB before? You are butthurt because I called you out on your crap, and since you did not want to keep it private, here it is. Nobody is scared of you, little girl. I will take you on anytime.
Apparently, there is a regular contributor here who I completely rub the wrong way. That is unfortunate, but c'est la vie. It happens. That person need never worry about my directing a future post in his/her direction again - s/he is now invisible to me. Finally, if one looks back over the last 5 or 6 pages of posts, there are *several* very lengthy posts by several different posters. So if there's going to be a length limit, perhaps every member of the forum should be made aware of it. If a length limit is going to be imposed on only *one* poster - and that at the insistence of *another* poster (!) - this should be a concern to all.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
sixtyseven
()
Date: February 10, 2013 04:05PM
Quote
TaitenAndProud
If memory serves, the reason "Ode to Joy" was supposed to be acceptable was that the original Beethoven lyrics, which are the ones the SGI choirs would sing, were NOT Christian! The Schiller lyrics were made up later - there is a long tradition in Christianity of putting their own words to existing classical pieces. Here are Beethoven's original lyrics - it's long, I'm just going to post a few stanzas. He sounds quite deist in his perspective, and many historians think that he had little real personal connection to Christianity:
NO.
Thats absolute NONSENSE.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
sixtyseven
()
Date: February 10, 2013 04:40PM
Quote
TaitenAndProud
In my experience, everyone was supposed to sing it in the original German and "study" the meaning of the lyrics. *eye roll* The words fit the tempo better in the original German - all I can remember of it is "Tochter aus Elysium" :P
As you can see, these lyrics fit the SGI focus quite well - themes of militaristic conflict overcome and uniting together under a common banner, with a place for Ikeda Sensei ("loving father"), the most important detail. But it was used more as an "IN YO FACE!!" to the priests, truth be told, so it always felt kind of ugly. Since we only heard the priests' objections to the piece through the SGI's filters, it's hardly surprising that this trivial choice of music has become an overblown conflict. I just took a look around, did a few different searches, and I could not find any explanation of this issue from the NS perspective - does anyone else have any information on that?
My post was not about a discussion the" Ode an die Freude " nor about Beethoven,Schiller or christianity.
My post was about the study material of 2009 and a response to tsukimoto about the priesthood split. It was simple a quote from the SGI script.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
sixtyseven
()
Date: February 10, 2013 07:29PM
As a fresh out from the cults clasp, I apologize here to everyone if my tone is too much ikedian washed. Please take it not personal: I have a struggle with English and the computer too.
However, I would like to contribute to this thread as much as I can, and maybe the longer out ex members want to know about the current cult tactics. They appear to change their faces like a virus, cleanup the old informations and put on a new diguise or the old one again, and when you are a cult novice you know nothing about the whole priesthood affairs or SGlie history. In 2011 I had that study examinations 2 and it was divided into three sections. Part 1 was all about Nichiren and historical events and the history of the 3 presidents, a multiple choice test. Part two was about the gosho The Inheritance of The Law, you had to fill out in your own words a lot of life and death phrases and waves of the ocean blablaba.The most correct answers were those within emphasis on master-disciple relationship, the oneness of the group and the protection of the group. Always go conform with the group, ever protect the group, don't leave the group...The other questions in part 2 were about donations, an excert of the NHR triumph lecture about the Suddatta -rice- offering story. And a praise of SGI history of donations- how they carefully handled the money and only the most deepest heartfelt offerings are welcomed by them.
Part 3 was all priesthood conflict, and the only question was: what is your personel opinion about the priesthood split and do you think that SGI profits in the future from the splitting.So from your point of view, was it a good descision? You only had the filtered version of the story/ the script and you had to go conform with it, make a pretty little nikken-baiting and sum up with a sensei the good man. I think you had maximum of eight to ten lines to fill out in part 3. The examination papers had to be signed and I regret that I did sign it. With hindsight I would like to sign it with Micky mouse or Mork from Ork.
Fact is the SGI owns a paper signed by deceived sixtyseven. And I feel real sick when I think about that examination papers.
However, I would like to contribute to this thread as much as I can, and maybe the longer out ex members want to know about the current cult tactics. They appear to change their faces like a virus, cleanup the old informations and put on a new diguise or the old one again, and when you are a cult novice you know nothing about the whole priesthood affairs or SGlie history. In 2011 I had that study examinations 2 and it was divided into three sections. Part 1 was all about Nichiren and historical events and the history of the 3 presidents, a multiple choice test. Part two was about the gosho The Inheritance of The Law, you had to fill out in your own words a lot of life and death phrases and waves of the ocean blablaba.The most correct answers were those within emphasis on master-disciple relationship, the oneness of the group and the protection of the group. Always go conform with the group, ever protect the group, don't leave the group...The other questions in part 2 were about donations, an excert of the NHR triumph lecture about the Suddatta -rice- offering story. And a praise of SGI history of donations- how they carefully handled the money and only the most deepest heartfelt offerings are welcomed by them.
Part 3 was all priesthood conflict, and the only question was: what is your personel opinion about the priesthood split and do you think that SGI profits in the future from the splitting.So from your point of view, was it a good descision? You only had the filtered version of the story/ the script and you had to go conform with it, make a pretty little nikken-baiting and sum up with a sensei the good man. I think you had maximum of eight to ten lines to fill out in part 3. The examination papers had to be signed and I regret that I did sign it. With hindsight I would like to sign it with Micky mouse or Mork from Ork.
Fact is the SGI owns a paper signed by deceived sixtyseven. And I feel real sick when I think about that examination papers.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 10, 2013 07:33PM
Quote
sixtyseven
I went through the study material from 2009 and there Ikeda compared his exclusion to a witch- hunt in nazi style. He named it discrimination of Culture and Art - he said that was the starting point of the split, in Dec.'90- because he wanted Beethovens 9.th Symphonia "Ode der Freude" made for the new Soka Hymn and Nikken disagreed because the lyrics (by Schiller) are glorification of christianity, which is absolutely correct. Another disagreement could be, IMO, that the Joy/ Happiness in the song is a daughter comming from the land of Elysium and Elysium is an equivalent to "pure land" in buddhism. The hymn would have fitted perfectly to ikedas cult concept of embracing the millions ($$$ not people) and all men become myoho brothers and myoho sisters of course by pimping up the lyrics. Hmm, the man is good in stealing art, have you noticed that the emblem of SGI is a copy of Michelangelos star in Rome?
The split with the priesthood roughly coincides with the time that I was extricating myself from the cult org.. I still had, however, access to copies of "The Weird Tribune" (thanks for this name, rattyboy!) and I remember reading the "official" gakkai (USA) propaganda detailing it all, even discussing it with some of my friends of other faiths. The Beethoven incident, according to the cult org., is the seed that started it all. That, of course, is a false statement / misrepresentation by the cult org.. The animosity between the $oka cult org. and the priesthood is rooted in decades old hostility that was suppressed / hidden from USA cult org. members. If you understood Japanese, though, there were always rumblings and intimations of a rocky relationship going on, but it was NEVER openly discussed with the general membership, at meetings, or in English, until the stuff hit the fan around '89-'90. Thereafter, there was no holding back.
That's an excellent find, btw, regarding Michelangelo's star in Rome. Fascinating, but definitely not surprising! The gakkai cult is again exposed as the hack organization that it is.
****
Quote
TaitenAndProud
IMHO, it's one thing to say, "Here is what the SGI was promoting, which apparently had no other purpose than to inflate the membership rolls", and it's a completely different thing to say, "SGI members are brainwashed and exploited."
Generally speaking, I have sometimes come across as too sharp in my criticisms of the $oka Cult Org., by those with a different temperament than myself.
I try to be cognizant of the fact that I can sometimes come across as a bit harsh for some on this mb and have tried to tone it down as much as I possibly can and / or preface my statements with a warning disclaimer beforehand. That said, I do prefer the latter statement above. Blunt talk can sometimes cut thru the fog, too.
****
Re: The Ikeda swimsuit (yikes!) bronze at the sho-hondo
When I went on tozan, I didn't see it. I believe the priests made him remove it. When I learned about it, I did ask pioneering Japanese members about it and their reaction was two-fold: first, one of surprise that I knew about it, and second, one of anger, denying it and feigning ignorance. Plus, based on what I know about these pioneering members' standard behavior model, they were lying like a rug, too.
That's all just my own anecdotal experience. As far as I'm concerned, that's Ikeda in the bronze relief and it would be typical of his psychopathological narcissism to do such a thing to put one over on the priests and satisfy the delusion that he is the daishonin reincarnated, thereby having a way to get members to chant to his likeness at the front base of the sho-hondo bustudan (which is where it was).
Any way you slice it, that hilarious bronze relief stunt is the product of one very sick mind. Definitely not the kind of "Master" (err, I mean "mentor") that I'd want in my life.
****
On that note, here's another recent video from the USA cult org. apotheosizing The Dear Leader [www.youtube.com]. (This kind of meeting, especially the mc, brings back lots of bad memories for me. I can't believe that I ever sat through that kind of crap for so long, before. I definitely would not have the tolerance to do it today; just going thru selections of this clip was enough for me. Good luck to those of you who have the stamina to watch the entire thing, because I sure as hell didn't. I really feel sorry for that "mayor" of the city getting roped up in it, too.)
- Hitch
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 10, 2013 07:48PM
Quote
sixtyseven
The examination papers had to be signed and I regret that I did sign it. With hindsight I would like to sign it with Micky mouse or Mork from Ork.
I LOVE that! :-))
****
But, seriously, that's really sick, what the cult org. does to members now. They made me put my silly resolutions into numerous time capsules that are supposedly buried under various Cousin Rufus structures in the US and Japan. I doubt they even buried the capsules; if they did, they'll probably just dig them up someday and toss them (like with the sho-hondo capsules).
- Hitch
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