Hitch: "Citizens in Japan know the score and keep in mind, this is the one place on Earth where Cousin Rufus is supposed to reside and all should be bliss. Does it look like it?"

EXCELLENT! Thanks for digging these little gems out of YouTube.

Rothaus: "When I left (though the backdoor I must admit) I for months now and again messages even form the national SGI leader on my answering machine saying he welcomes critical minds."

Welcomes critical minds? Since when? What about the IRG that was excommunicated in total for daring to work for changes in how the cult operated? Just a blatant, out and out lie.

I left through the back door also, no confrontations or anything. I went away to college, didn't know where meetings were, and didn't ask. Nobody from my home location bothered to contact me either, so it all faded away as I was exposed to a wider world with critical thinking at the core. I was disappointed at the time that people I thought cared deeply about me as a person, not just a fellow cult member, didn't bother to check on me once I went away to college. This also showed me that cult members work for themselves, all the incessant activities are to improve their own karma and relationships are tenuous at best, although loyalty is feigned.

Interestingly, at the time, I attributed my acceptance to my dream university (a highly competitive school) to chanting, but perhaps my work to obtain excellent grades and recommendations had more to do with it. I think that some of my "friends" in the org were jealous when I reported this "benefit", because they did not want to take time from cult activities to plan their future or do anything but chant for things to happen without making any concrete efforts to reach these goals. For teenagers, the cult can seriously derail preparation for real life, unless their goal is to be a "top leader". Makes me sick to think of it, the damage done by the cult to unsuspecting and naive young people, or anybody who takes a sip of the kool-aid.

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Freeheartandmind
Gohonzon birthdays were not celebrated when I was in cult NSA. I was shortchanged!

Mine was supposedly my birthday. So, as a mis-fortune baby, we were all spoon-fed the extra sweetened kool-aid, every chance they got.

********

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The Anticult
well, since is this not a cult, then everyone is free to post different positions, and people can read them and think about them at their leisure.
:-)
What you are saying has been voiced in other threads, on other cults.
That is, some of the criticism seems too harsh, and will turn off soft-believers.
So if that is the case, others can voice another viewpoint.

But for example, posting an overgeneralization like..."chanting is bullshit" can actually have value.
But in fact, it should read "SGI-chanting is bullshit".
General chanting has been done for eons, its a form of singing, isn't it?

But the simple idea..."SGI-chanting is bullshit" might just be a thought that makes someone think...yeah maybe it is all bullshit.
but it might turns someone else off.

So since open public forums are wide open, you get the wide diversity of viewpoints.
There are chanters in this thread for ages, they don't get criticized, do they?

But the phrase "SGI-chanting is bullshit" is something that in fact is pretty darn accurate, if you think about it. SGI-chanting for a Mercedes, or to cure cancer, and the rest, it is bullshit.

of course, other might have a different viewpiont, and of course that is up to them..


As far as the Lotus Sutra and things mentioned later, does anyone see the Lotus Sutra taking everyone's money, and investing it in tax-loopholes globally like SGI?

So some might think that SGI-chanting is just bullshit.
Others might have a more nuanced viewpoint.

But the first time I saw with my own eyes some person chanting for a Mercedes and a Rolex, pretty much the first though that went through the head was...uh...this is bullshit!
;-)

Speaking as someone who partook in the "experiment" for decades (unfortunately), I concur, it's bovine excrement. I'd rather join a chorus as a hobby and get the same "high." (The cult also has a chorus group as an extra boost, for those that need more.)

It was an oppressive, primitive, magical thinking, burdensome ritual to me. I've also seen my share of whacked out crazy NMRK chanters in the nsa/sgi cult (people chanting to the point of collapse, losing their voice, eyes bulging out, spittle flying out of their mouth, fingertips pressed together turning red and white, furious juzu bead rubbing together as if they were kneading dough in their hands, heads-arms-body bobbing up-n-down & back-n-forth, tears in their eyes, tranced out, etc. Some people honestly looked like they were out on a day pass from an institution.).

If other people had different "experiences" with it, that's fine. I'm just sharing mine, as well.

*********

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Freeheartandmind
I left through the back door also, no confrontations or anything. I went away to college, didn't know where meetings were, and didn't ask. Nobody from my home location bothered to contact me either, so it all faded away as I was exposed to a wider world with critical thinking at the core. I was disappointed at the time that people I thought cared deeply about me as a person, not just a fellow cult member, didn't bother to check on me once I went away to college. This also showed me that cult members work for themselves, all the incessant activities are to improve their own karma and relationships are tenuous at best, although loyalty is feigned.

College, graduate school, etc., were what allowed me to put some real distance between myself and the cult. Unfortunately, I had a family member who, unbeknownst to me, eventually kept "connecting" me to new area local "leaders." I quickly wised up and put a stop to it. Gakkai cult members are the same everywhere and very predictable (they are all brainwashed with the same program and behave accordingly).

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Freeheartandmind
Interestingly, at the time, I attributed my acceptance to my dream university (a highly competitive school) to chanting, but perhaps my work to obtain excellent grades and recommendations had more to do with it. I think that some of my "friends" in the org were jealous when I reported this "benefit", because they did not want to take time from cult activities to plan their future or do anything but chant for things to happen without making any concrete efforts to reach these goals. For teenagers, the cult can seriously derail preparation for real life, unless their goal is to be a "top leader". Makes me sick to think of it, the damage done by the cult to unsuspecting and naive young people, or anybody who takes a sip of the kool-aid.

Some of my high school years were a blur, all because of the massive investment of time that I had to place in the cult org.. I had to dial back the practice to be able to get a proper education. Looking back, it was one of the first best decisions that I made as a young brainwashed, family indoctrinated cultie. And, yes, you are absolutely 100% spot-on the money when you say that getting an education didn't sit well with some people. I even encountered bizarre treatment from so-called "leaders." I understand it all now, but at the time, I was confused as all hell. The cult *is* just like a crab bucket and to some, learning how to think and bettering yourself is a threat to their perceived power.

*******

So, the gakkai cult org. "welcomes" critical thinkers as members? I have yet to see and meet a single one. Perhaps they mean ones who are members, but have to stay in the closet in order to remain so. I never went into that closet, so I wouldn't know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2012 05:12AM by Hitch.

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Rothaus
... messages even form the national SGI leader on my answering machine saying he welcomes critical minds ...

Oh yeah, that tactic is called "Keep em talking, as long as you can keep talking to them you can eventually persuade them." Cult.org dressed up in the "reasonable person" costume. They freeze over pretty quick when you ask them "wrong" questions though, and you can be fully assured that you will just get a warmed over version of the party line... nothing they would feel would risk them being accused of "breaking faith" with the rest of the kool-aid drinkers.

Another variant of that same approach is "Tell them anything as long as you can keep them on the hook".

Both are tactics used to bamboozle people, and are not exclusive to cult.org, other examples are used car salesmen, sons and daughters calling from college to get you to send money :-), and politicians.

At some point one arrives at the mind state that you already know who the people really are and talking is just a waste of time, because they always devolve back to their core "selves".

Wakatta1

BTW, anybody interested in buying a bridge?

Interesting article, especially for those of you who were in NSA.


[mrbellersneighborhood.com]

Wakatta1: "BTW, anybody interested in buying a bridge?"

Would this be the bridge to the land of Cousin Rufus? Right by the yellow brick road?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2012 06:32AM by Freeheartandmind.

Hitch, stop it! Your "I concur, it's bovine excrement." comment made me spew iced tea all over my nice new laptop!

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Rothaus
Well I actually made one or two people think twice about SGI. It was on a Buddhist forum (non-english) where I simply tried to reflect my reservations and also mentioned this forum. Strangely enough they were quite taken by the chanting and so forth but quite disturbed (no wonder) by the ikedaism taking place. In the end they decided to keep their distance to SGI.

One of my friends from back in college mentioned to me that he was approached by some oriental ladies who tried to get him to come to some buddhist meeting. After a few questions from me, I knew immediately they were gakkai and I told him to keep the hell away from them and walk in the other direction next time he saw them. I believe that was my first ever, anti- or reverse shakubuku. Despite what the cult org. wants its members to believe, my "karma" survived and even kept getting better.

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Rothaus
I believe its worth while strenthening peoples instincts - I mean I was in my teens when I joined back in the 80s, but I must admit in the back of my mind there was that voice saying something was fishy.

My teen years coincided with the height of my time in and, as a result, started to actually open my eyes (and nose) to notice that that fish smell was actually everywhere and getting stronger.

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Rothaus
When I left (though the backdoor I must admit) I for months now and again messages even form the national SGI leader on my answering machine saying he welcomes critical minds. Hell yea ...I was shunned when I was speaking my mind ... in the end it was the obvious clear absence of common sense ... A SGI-Japan leader speaking of NST mebeners and priets as a tumor ... sorry it sounded facist to me at times.
What truely would be helpful to have a page in the internet that lists documented facts on SGI at this point its only of marginal interest to what is going on even with the media.

I was also part of the pariah club, for asking (initially) sincere questions. They say it is "ok" with their mouth, but in actuality you are quickly ostracized by the group for doing so. At first, it's just because your faith is "weak" or you are lacking a "connection" with the gohonzon (I think it is Ikeda now). If you persist, then you move into the "negative influence" category, which precipitates heavy gun (higher and higher "leader") home-v's. You either become a good sheep and come back into the fold, or leave. If you leave, after you're gone for a while, you start to get the random contacts out of the blue (in actuality, there is just some "campaign" going on and they want you back as a statistic for their paperwork and # reports). Phone calls, letters, post-cards, from long forgotten so-called "friends", who disappear just as quickly as the reappeared if you are not receptive. As long as they have your number or address, they will continue to come around for years. Otherwise, it'll just be whenever you randomly bump into them out in the real world.

Also, if you are the only "sincerely" practicing person in your family, there will always be occasional intense pressure that waxes and wanes for you to get the rest of your family onboard (and all the mind games to go along with it). It'll pretty much never end as long as you are a member. You'll have to resign yourself to living with the pressure and guilt that they will try to place on you for not having "faith" or a "practice" strong enough to convert your family. I've seen this done to very sincere and otherwise devoted members who the cult org. is not satisfied with having just one person, but wants them all.

It's all sheer emotional mind control and manipulation for the cult org.'s advantage and benefit. They will say and do just about anything to get you to stay on the hook, or re-hook you if manage to wiggle off, without remorse or conscience.

My advice for skeptical people who are reading this board, or smelling the dead fish odor, is to wiggle off the hook, swim as far away from the bait as you can possible get, and stay away, stay far away.

If we could post those clapping smiley face thingies, I would post three or four. Your comment about the beads is right-on. I read recently that the "proper" thing to do is hold them quietly while chanting, but that's not how it was done while I was in. The louder the better! I personally used them to stay awake.

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Hitch

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Rothaus
Well I actually made one or two people think twice about SGI. It was on a Buddhist forum (non-english) where I simply tried to reflect my reservations and also mentioned this forum. Strangely enough they were quite taken by the chanting and so forth but quite disturbed (no wonder) by the ikedaism taking place. In the end they decided to keep their distance to SGI.

One of my friends from back in college mentioned to me that he was approached by some oriental ladies who tried to get him to come to some buddhist meeting. After a few questions from me, I knew immediately they were gakkai and I told him to keep the hell away from them and walk in the other direction next time he saw them. I believe that was my first ever, anti- or reverse shakubuku. Despite what the cult org. wants its members to believe, my "karma" survived and even kept getting better.

Quote
Rothaus
I believe its worth while strenthening peoples instincts - I mean I was in my teens when I joined back in the 80s, but I must admit in the back of my mind there was that voice saying something was fishy.

My teen years coincided with the height of my time in and, as a result, started to actually open my eyes (and nose) to notice that that fish smell was actually everywhere and getting stronger.

Quote
Rothaus
When I left (though the backdoor I must admit) I for months now and again messages even form the national SGI leader on my answering machine saying he welcomes critical minds. Hell yea ...I was shunned when I was speaking my mind ... in the end it was the obvious clear absence of common sense ... A SGI-Japan leader speaking of NST mebeners and priets as a tumor ... sorry it sounded facist to me at times.
What truely would be helpful to have a page in the internet that lists documented facts on SGI at this point its only of marginal interest to what is going on even with the media.

I was also part of the pariah club, for asking (initially) sincere questions. They say it is "ok" with their mouth, but in actuality you are quickly ostracized by the group for doing so. At first, it's just because your faith is "weak" or you are lacking a "connection" with the gohonzon (I think it is Ikeda now). If you persist, then you move into the "negative influence" category, which precipitates heavy gun (higher and higher "leader") home-v's. You either become a good sheep and come back into the fold, or leave. If you leave, after you're gone for a while, you start to get the random contacts out of the blue (in actuality, there is just some "campaign" going on and they want you back as a statistic for their paperwork and # reports). Phone calls, letters, post-cards, from long forgotten so-called "friends", who disappear just as quickly as the reappeared if you are not receptive. As long as they have your number or address, they will continue to come around for years. Otherwise, it'll just be whenever you randomly bump into them out in the real world.

Also, if you are the only "sincerely" practicing person in your family, there will always be occasional intense pressure that waxes and wanes for you to get the rest of your family onboard (and all the mind games to go along with it). It'll pretty much never end as long as you are a member. You'll have to resign yourself to living with the pressure and guilt that they will try to place on you for not having "faith" or a "practice" strong enough to convert your family. I've seen this done to very sincere and otherwise devoted members who the cult org. is not satisfied with having just one person, but wants them all.

It's all sheer emotional mind control and manipulation for the cult org.'s advantage and benefit. They will say and do just about anything to get you to stay on the hook, or re-hook you if manage to wiggle off, without remorse or conscience.

My advice for skeptical people who are reading this board, or smelling the dead fish odor, is to wiggle off the hook, swim as far away from the bait as you can possible get, and stay away, stay far away.

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Hitch
One of my friends from back in college mentioned to me that he was approached by some oriental ladies who tried to get him to come to some buddhist meeting.

So I'm sitting on a plane flying to San Diego a year ago. The woman on the window seat was a mid-forties, professional-looking person, and I was on the aisle seat. As the last people boarded the plan a very old oriental woman sits down on the in-between seat, all smiley and nodding as they do when in an awkward position.

The plane takes off and I read my book while the lady continually rummages through her bags. Eventually she settles on some rice cookies and sticks them in the seat back pouch along with a book, judging from my glimpse of its cover, it was chinese (and not japanese).

The next couple hours were pretty much in silence, she tried to start up a conversation with the woman on the window seat but she was reading too so that didn't go very far.

Two hours into the flight I get offered a rice cookie by the oriental woman, and I politely accept it. She offers another and I decline. She returns her attention to the woman on the window and the two chat for about a half hour. I didn't pay much attention to what they were talking about since whatever they were discussing was masked by the plane's engine noise.

Eventually my neighbor returned her attention to me and then starts asking me questions. "where are you going to?", "Do you travel much?" (very heavy oriental accent so I needed her to repeat herself several times). Steady questions, slightly prying. From her accent I knew she was definitely not Japanese. She affirmed my suspicions and said she was chinese and she was going to see family. All well and good.

She then says "You ever heard of nam myoho renge kyo?" and I suddenly realized what she was up to. I waited for a minute and thought about what I'd say but she continued on (shakubuku rehearsed sentence #135) "Iffu you do this you be soooo happeeee". "Oops!" I thought to myself "should have seen that coming..." I decided that instead of stringing her along or just being rude, since she was an elderly person I'd come clean and even be merciful.

When she stopped long enough for me to change the subject I said to her: "do you know what the leadership of your church is up to?" She looked back wide eyed. "You should ask them what they do with your money". Another blank look. I leaned in for effect "I know all about your religion, I know all about what it stands for, I know what you are doing, and I really hope you will give it another look because there are very big problems with it, especially with the head leader" (and I told her his name which got her eyes wider).

She froze. By this time the woman on the window was watching and listening and I added the same for her, that it was a cult and that she was trying to find new believers, I said "they call it shakubuku" to the window seat woman who blinked and then turned to look out the window.

The oriental woman was stunned and she turned a little away from me and started putting things away into her carry on bag. I returned to my book wondering what would come next if anything at all. The rest of the flight was in silence.

After I got off the plane I lost sight of her, but she started to approach me at the baggage pick up. I told her I thought she probably was a very nice lady, but that I had a long history with SGI and that if she was wise she would give it another thought because it may not be what she thinks it is. She got her bag and then left pretty quickly then.

The point is that Cult.org is still pushing members to do shakubuku. After I quit I thought about how I'd deal with someone trying to shakubuku me, but surprisingly I just felt sorry for her in the end.

Wakatta1