HItch: " One thought that entered my mind as a kid and never left me, is the bizzare fact that people are chanting to a piece of paper. A piece of paper. It's reality knocking on the door, to be let in."

While I tried to see the practice as a meditation type ritual to empower myself, I was also polluted into thinking that the practice arranged the environment in one's favor through some beyond science type means.

How? Confirmation Bias. Since I have stopped chanting, I have noticed that events occur randomly in my life, as they always have , that allow one the opportunity to gain in some way, basic opportunities. When these events happen (without chanting) I think to myself that I would have immediately taken the event as a result of my practice. I would have used every good thing that entered my life as proof. Confirmation Bias.

Without the chanting, I still get rewards for my own efforts, albeit without something leeching of those efforts that I made personally.

I also find myself still, every morning getting a knee jerk effect of thinking that I need to chant for split second. The chanting part of the practice, especially interwoven with the SGI, is definitely a powerful mind control device. One should be careful if they are going to practice outside of the SGI cult, to make sure that they aren't polluting the act by mixing it with cult symbols and ideas. Drink the clean water of free thinking and detoxify your life.


In regards to the breaking of boundaries by SGI cult members, when I left, I got phone calls for weeks, even at night. 10:30pm. People that I rarely knew would call or email asking me about how I was doing and telling me how their life was going. The final messages sent to me were basically framed to make me feel as if I was a traitor.
Edit: They wanted to visit me, in groups of two. Chant with me. The only reason they didn't come to my front door is because I live in a gated complex.

Of course I am a grown man and I never had anyone attempt to get in my face. But, looking at the pettiness that I witnessed after leaving, it doesn't take much imagination to see these creatures bullying young people.

Hitch, your experiences are very hardcore. I am genuinely happy that you got out.

Also that FNCC video is absolutely pathetic.

Rattyboy, I hope that your wish comes true. Many people would have deep gratitude for you if they just fulfilled your wish and paused their practice for three months to clear any doubts.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2012 07:39AM by Upgrayed.

The chanting is ridiculous nonsense. Completely primitive, magical-wishful thinking, ignorant ritual. That's JMO. It's all confirmation bias, both positive and negative. If some people get something out it, then more power to them. I think it's absurd and the longer I've been away from it, the harder I find it to believe that I actually ever partook in it. Of course, I did though, so I know exactly the kinds of mind games that one goes through to try to convince oneself that there is something "mystical" about it. (The whole concept of a so-called "mystic law" has always been a pet peeve of mine. The term itself is a completely meaningless oxymoronic play of words. If I heard somebody invoke these words as an adult, I'd laugh and walk away. But, I was a kid, and when you grow up around this kind of stuff, it has a tendency to just become "normal" to you, at least until you grow up and learn how think for yourself.)

Quote
Upgrayed
They wanted to visit me, in groups of two. Chant with me. The only reason they didn't come to my front door is because I live in a gated complex.

HAHA! Same thing happened to me, except that I picked up the intercom and told them that I was busy, but if they had had the courtesy to ask me beforehand, I could have saved them the trouble of a trip - and in the future, "don't call me, I'll call you." I then had the pleasure of looking out the window (I was on an upper floor), seeing them bicker a bit with each other and then try to turn the gate handle one more time before leaving. (I wanted to tell them that they were "out of rhythm" and had better chant more for the future, but resisted the urge and held back - for it was only their first attempt. Had it been the third of fourth time, I probably would have.)

My wish to share these ideas with members, I'm sure, would be met with them trying not to be manipulated, defending their right to their beliefs, etc. It is true that we weren't kept in some physical compound and not allowed to leave but there was strong encouragement about buying into the new way of life and not looking back. Now if someone came to your door selling "The Miracle Sponge" (a product I'm making up) and you bought it for $50.00 just so they would shut up about it, or, at the time it seemed worth it, that would be no big deal. Maybe each time you used it and seemed like it was actually effective you would at the same time grumble at the high price. Maybe friends would say "okay, you paid a lot but your place is looking cleaner" maybe you could have told the salesperson to come back some other time - you needed to think about it, but that person would worry that someone else would get the commission if they get back to you first for the final hooking. Giving your soul over completely, making a vow (SGI voice: "But we don't do that so fast anymore, people have to chant x # of months and have x # of home visits before we steal their identities and have them happily submit to mandatory subscriptions thus keeping Sensei Toda's dream of a guaranteed newspaper revenue....ahem ...we mean , uh Sensei Ikeda is carrying out his mentor's dream of world peace,blah blah) - making that jump is a huge deal.

I have 3 examples of phone interactions with businesses that remind me of SGI dealings.
One was a fairly simple cancellation, but I had already had 2 months of 12.00 taken out of my account after a free month because I didn't cancel the special offer that started when I saved 10% on a purchase in a store and received a special membership card. I had not even activated the membership .

Another was a call from a charity that pretty much decided for me that they were sending me an envelope so I could send my usual amount to them. They had been calling everyday for a few weeks until I finally picked up. "How much is the usual?" I asked. The person on the line retorted brusquely: "The same amount you give every year!" (Ah, a 'real life' opportunity to stand up) "and how much is that?" "20.00" he answered. I responded with "I don't do that anymore" and hung up. I didn't feel bad about my response but I didn't want to hang up without a cleaner ending to the interaction. I had only given money to them once. "Every year",ha!. I'm not putting up with these tactics but I tend to give these people way to much wiggle room just as SGI members have had.

The last person was on the phone with me for about an hour as I tried to keep control of the situation. I wanted to step back from being told from this self acclaimed expert who said "Your computer is infected! I know because of what you are describing" and "You insult me and my company and we have the help you need". I had back pedalled in many instances and spoke calmly and made the request to later discuss this great protection deal which would require me to pay at least $200.00 before hanging up. I wanted to see if the plan I had already paid for covered this, and, I told him I wanted to consult with friends who might be able to give advice. "You could talk to the people at the store and friends and neighbors but at the end of the day, who owns the computer? You do! And we are here to help you maintain the health of your computer. Let me tell you what I see. You are confused because you know you want to buy this protection" (ahhh!)
I was thinking how the PTSD potential was there, or at least a gross reminder of familiar tactics. It was funny, looking back, how I was willing to stand in the fire just to see how ridiculous it could get. It was amazing how my similar challenges to SGI, so mild and unassuming, I thought , were viewed as total affronts and not good behaviour.

Now, now Hitch. It's not as if people are offered a pill that has "dupe" written on it and then it's stupidly swallowed.

For example, I became interested in Buddhism as a means to learn more about meditation practices, something that researchers in the field of science were starting to look at closely, especially in regards to health.

I have a genetic disease that requires very expensive medication (taken daily) to manage a somewhat normal lifestyle. Because I take some of the most advanced medicine on the forefront of medical science (even having been a research patient) I began to look into alternative medicines.

So, following the path of alternative ideas about our body and healing, I came across through so many cross roads and underpasses the SGI.

On a side note, here is a video from youtube that shows some of the unrealized potential of what meditation can achieve: Youtube

Yes, this video may be a fraud, but then again one shouldn't be so dogmatic as to miss the potential that can be found through keeping an open mind.

Anyhow, I am sure many end up in the SGI because of curiosity about Buddhism and became involved, through curiosity about the practice. Anyhow, I made "friends" within the organization and was ushered (unknowingly) in a highly manipulative way towards recieving the gohonzon. While I did not have a magical
perspective initially, social dynamics are a very powerful tool in getting people to comply to ideas. For example, hearing something stated again and again, whether through text or in the endless experiences and presentations that occur at the meetings. Also, through "guidance" and the idea being driven that you can rely on this practice for a breakthrough with your health.

What is so sinister is that they knew my health issue from a discussion with a supposed "friend" which was then distributed to everyone. I had no desire to spread that information around but suddenly everyone would shape their conversations around my health and how it will be overcome.

In fact this was the first sign that things weren't right in la la land. The fact that any conversation you have within the SGI will be relayed across the cult.

Anyhow, social dynamics are powerful to help develop one's perspective. And while I didn't view the practice as magical, once you set to "test" the ideas that are being endlessly conveyed, you will prove the test correct.......confirmation bias. Very sneaky. Even after being entangled in confirmation bias, I didn't see it from a "magical" perspective, but rather through the lens of what's still unknown about the depth of the mind.

I will say that an open mind, curiosity and the powerful force of social dynamics will go along way towards shaping and manipulating perspective. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Even Nichiren Buddhism uses a very powerful "device" which is the practice. There is no doubt that it changed my emotional state. Now if used properly rather than being constructed and mixed with mind control, I wonder what "good" could be extracted from the meditational basis.



In conclusion, I don't want people to feel stupid for joining the cult. It shocked me that I got manipulated. Most people aren't prepared to guard themselves every moment against potential manipulaton (unless they are paranoid) and as a result, many good natured people get caught up. Cults are dangerous and you only get away if one somehow gets out from underneath the mind control.

Remember the U.S soldiers who were captured in North Korea and were brainwashed into taking a stance against their own country? This mind control is very difficult to break and that's why cults continue into the future. Many cult members will read these posts and some will agree and yet they will stay in the cult. Why? MIND CONTROL.

You may smell the rotting carcass under the floorboards of the cult and yet stick around developing that stench in your hair, clothes and everything you assume to be. Cults steal from you, warp you and ultimately destroy you.
Old timer SGI cult members are like husks of human beings. They have been sucked clean of any personal meaning. They look normal on the surface, but their world views are cemented in the cult reality. They are not really with us. It's as if they are life size cult dolls that animate on cue.



KEEP YOUNG PEOPLE AWAY FROM THIS CULT. IT WILL DESTROY RELATIONSHIPS WITH YOUR CHILDREN. IT WILL HARM THEM.

SGI, seriously you need to stop the "2030" campaign with the kid camps and the "youth division" exploitation. Even if you want to be a vibrant healthy cult, gaming people into the future.... leave the fucking kids alone. You monsters.

Rattyboy, your writing style is very good. I feel the exhaustion you convey regarding the endless role of people to attempt to take something from one's life.
This cult shouldn't be viewed any different. I would like to hear more about "consensus circles" as group mind think plays a powerful role in reinforcing concepts and ideas. The 'mob" mentality?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2012 01:00AM by Upgrayed.

I tried to get rid of the video link as it's irrelevant to the discussion of the thread. Secondly, it has the potential to derail the subject. On a third point, I am not welded to the content in such a way to defend it. Basically, I stand on science and facts, but in the last couple of years, I started opening my mind to certain potentialities, versus the concrete foundations of verification and solid methodology. This may be the result of emotions or more specifically desperation due to my health. The video showed magician feats through meditation but ultimately wasn't done in a controlled setting.

Please do not respond on the video. Thank you☺

Upgrayed - Okay. Consensus Circles. First of all, I have attended New agey, not so scientifically based magical thinking events and other Eastern based modalities, splinter groups, guru gatherings, what have you while trying to replace the "magical thinking' and group think of SGI/NSA throughout the years and have been a repeat presence with some of these, but ALL of these have been free and easy about membership. I also feel much more comfortable with science and facts especially at this point in my Human Regurgitation.
I don't want to come off as a misanthrope mistrusting group behaviour in general as I describe this. Read my post on page 96, middle page of this thread about being in a small circle of people at a large meeting while many other discussion circles discussed what we thought of Prez Ikeda with as much honesty as we could muster up. It was known at that time and discussed by some of my leaders after this event and almost with a little cynicism, that SGI was worried about what the membership was thinking of the dear leader and made sure people felt compelled to appear from all corners of the region for this special meeting in NYC. Worried, maybe. Strengthening consensus strategy, probably. The leader who took over the subject of our circle after a few polite comments from some youth was not the one who got up on stage to report on our group's discussion. It was the most enthusiastic YWD (Young women's division member) in our group who the leader chose to get up and speak. This leader was not explicitly introduced as a leader. She was, seemingly, just a part of our group of 10 - 15 people. All these group mouthpieces had nothing but good things to say. There was some loud announcement after these presentations that PI has given us permission to yell at his picture if we'd like. Great. Mission Accomplished. That is one model of what I mean by "Consensus Circle", but I hesitate writing that word again as I don't want to introduce terminology beyond some of the fun words forum folk have used like "Ikedabots" and "Dear Leader".

Home Visits: The Org has always recommended having at least 2 people on the visit. This prevents one person from butting heads and between the 3 or 4 of you , consensus on something can be reached. (There's some video online of someone agreeing, in a mind control experiment with only 3 other people who were actors told to give the the wrong answer to "which line is longer?").

"Wasn't that great?" yelled out after someone's experience or performance is not going to be met with disagreement because
A) It took guts to get up there
B) They probably did tell a by the book before and after story with at least one "humorous" moment.
C) "Great" meaning relevant to what you, the attendee want from the meeting. Uh, encouragement, or, uh, a tip of the cognitive dissonace scale.

"That was Great!" shouted even louder instead of "Wasn't that Great?" saves the thinking and immediately puts everyone on the same page. I was seeing that more and more. The response from the emcee after the MJ song singer on a posted video is an example.
These are seemingly passing comments on the microphone but keep everyone in agreement.

Spending so much time cheering about how far we drove and whooping it up for our own district. I guess that's what it means to be a "Youth!"

We can all agree that receiving a certificate is an honour especially with many people watching.

Aren't the Japanese accents kinda cute especially when the Japanese members join in the laughs? We know we actually respect them for knowing at least 2 difficult languages.

Wasn't that Great? / That was great! Indirect/ Direct like discussing the mentor /disciple relationship in general and letting you fill in the obvious blank. "Tonight we are going to discuss vows and why they are important." Hmmm, I wonder why. And then other times it is more direct when stating that you "made a vow to your mentor Daisaku Ikeda"
How many young women who were just attending a meeting their "Buddhist friend" invited them to have sung the song about making a solemn vow?
Its a fluctuating bag of gas.

You don't have to agree. I'm just saying.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2012 03:19AM by rattyboy.

So many great posts from Upgrayed, Hitch, rattyboy.

When talking about the Gohonzon, it was/is always said that you must not "seek this Gohonzon outside of yourself". That comes from the SGI-sanctioned Gosho. But, hey, the Gohonzon IS outside of ourselves---it IS a piece of paper.

That aspect never quite seemed to be, well, no leader seemed to have an answer to the duality of this "prime point", if you will.

Do not seek President Ikeda outside yourself, that's why you have to see yourself as Shi' inichi Yamamoto, the counterfeit Ikeda.

Quote
Upgrayed
Now, now Hitch. It's not as if people are offered a pill that has "dupe" written on it and then it's stupidly swallowed.

I think that is precisely what is happening, but there *are* complex reasons and dynamics as to why people choose to swallow it in the first place. It's basically fooling oneself and in the process, letting others to do it to you.

Quote
Upgrayed
Yes, this video may be a fraud, but then again one shouldn't be so dogmatic as to miss the potential that can be found through keeping an open mind.

Not "may be", it is. John Chang is a con-man, period.

Generally speaking, dogmatism has no place in real science and one should not have their mind so open so as to have one's brains fall out, either. A delicate balance of an open mind and skepticism is required, tempered with the scientific method.

Quote
Upgrayed
What is so sinister is that they knew my health issue from a discussion with a supposed "friend" which was then distributed to everyone. I had no desire to spread that information around but suddenly everyone would shape their conversations around my health and how it will be overcome.

In fact this was the first sign that things weren't right in la la land. The fact that any conversation you have within the SGI will be relayed across the cult.

Trust me, serious health issues are always duly noted within the org. for no other purpose than to further to manipulate and influence you.

Quote
Upgrayed
I will say that an open mind, curiosity and the powerful force of social dynamics will go along way towards shaping and manipulating perspective.

An open mind and curiosity are necessary and wonderful qualities, but if one is using the scientific method properly, then social dynamics should not play any role whatsoever.

Quote
Upgrayed
Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Even Nichiren Buddhism uses a very powerful "device" which is the practice. There is no doubt that it changed my emotional state. Now if used properly rather than being constructed and mixed with mind control, I wonder what "good" could be extracted from the meditational basis.

Show me the evidence and I'll be there. Show me the so-called baby and then we can talk about what supposedly is or isn't being done with it.

If (nichiren) buddhism or any other philosophy helps some people, I think that is great, but so does hiking, exercise, hobbies, music, crafts, community volunteering, yoga, etc.. I have no problem with any of it, so long as people don't manipulate and fool the people doing it in the process.

Quote
Upgrayed
In conclusion, I don't want people to feel stupid for joining the cult. It shocked me that I got manipulated. Most people aren't prepared to guard themselves every moment against potential manipulaton (unless they are paranoid) and as a result, many good natured people get caught up. Cults are dangerous and you only get away if one somehow gets out from underneath the mind control.

That's how I view my time "in" - just like a fool. I was a fool for falling for it; there is no shame in admitting as much. I'm also just as equally shocked at myself for being a dupe; again, there is nothing wrong with reaching such an understanding about oneself.

Quote
Upgrayed
KEEP YOUNG PEOPLE AWAY FROM THIS CULT. IT WILL DESTROY RELATIONSHIPS WITH YOUR CHILDREN. IT WILL HARM THEM.

SGI, seriously you need to stop the "2030" campaign with the kid camps and the "youth division" exploitation. Even if you want to be a vibrant healthy cult, gaming people into the future.... leave the fucking kids alone. You monsters.

Wholeheartedly agree!

Just some quick random replies to your post rattyboy -

Quote
rattyboy
Home Visits: The Org has always recommended having at least 2 people on the visit. This prevents one person from butting heads and between the 3 or 4 of you , consensus on something can be reached. (There's some video online of someone agreeing, in a mind control experiment with only 3 other people who were actors told to give the the wrong answer to "which line is longer?").

My take on home-v's is that there is always one well-seasoned elder "leader" who is "training" a younger apprentice in the "art" of cult manipulation and "soft", under the radar, control. I've been on both sides of many (HAHA!).

Quote
rattyboy
"Wasn't that great?" yelled out after someone's experience or performance is not going to be met with disagreement because
A) It took guts to get up there
B) They probably did tell a by the book before and after story with at least one "humorous" moment.
C) "Great" meaning relevant to what you, the attendee want from the meeting. Uh, encouragement, or, uh, a tip of the cognitive dissonace scale.

I was usually one of the few (sometimes only one) sitting there shaking my head in disagreement, despite "a-b-&-c" listed.

Quote
rattyboy
"That was Great!" shouted even louder instead of "Wasn't that Great?" saves the thinking and immediately puts everyone on the same page. I was seeing that more and more. The response from the emcee after the MJ song singer on a posted video is an example.
These are seemingly passing comments on the microphone but keep everyone in agreement.

I see people acting like fools and out of their minds in that clip.

Quote
rattyboy
Spending so much time cheering about how far we drove and whooping it up for our own district. I guess that's what it means to be a "Youth!"

Precisely. And no thinking required.

Quote
rattyboy
We can all agree that receiving a certificate is an honour especially with many people watching.

Much like the dear leader's (bought) degrees and endless number of parks, trees, and streets named after him, I viewed it all as meaningless epaulettes that serve only to influence the gullible (and non-thinking crowd).

Quote
rattyboy
Aren't the Japanese accents kinda cute especially when the Japanese members join in the laughs? We know we actually respect them for knowing at least 2 difficult languages.

To be honest, they ceased being cute with me a loooong time ago, especially the cackling cacophony bursts of laughter that the wd were professionals at producing. (I respect people more who can speak more than one language, well.)