Quote
Hitch
I have a general question that I would like to throw out there to see if any you former members can relate:

Did you ever notice how hardcore gakkai members (I've seen it in both Japan and The U.S.) would treat fellow member encounters entirely differently than they would your average non-member out the street, in the real world? They would put on these fake Disneyland-like smiles you see with the greeters and guides at The Magical Kingdom, with fellow members. Yet if you were ever with them in a non-gakkai setting, the fangs would sometimes deploy and they would literally bite people and could be incredibly rude to non-members, way out of proportion to how any "normal" person would react to everyday situations. Some real life Jekyll & Hyde stuff.

Just some more of those little clues that started to help pry open the skeptical thinking box in my brain that eventually saved me from this cult.

I'd like to put Hitch's question out there again. What little time I spent in public with people from the SGi I saw significant separation from society. Any other views on the SGI individual in relation to the non-members?

Quote
Hitch
I have a general question that I would like to throw out there to see if any you former members can relate:

Did you ever notice how hardcore gakkai members (I've seen it in both Japan and The U.S.) would treat fellow member encounters entirely differently than they would your average non-member out the street, in the real world? They would put on these fake Disneyland-like smiles you see with the greeters and guides at The Magical Kingdom, with fellow members. Yet if you were ever with them in a non-gakkai setting, the fangs would sometimes deploy and they would literally bite people and could be incredibly rude to non-members, way out of proportion to how any "normal" person would react to everyday situations. Some real life Jekyll & Hyde stuff.

Just some more of those little clues that started to help pry open the skeptical thinking box in my brain that eventually saved me from this cult.

As someone who is married to a long time practioner but who doesn't practice himself, I am often treated indifferently by many of the division and area leaders. There is one in particular who has in the past treated me with outright disdain (tried to shakabuko me on several occasions). To be honest, I have had little problems with regular members though I find their Ikeda worship and loyalty to the organization beyond belief.

In my experience in sgi-usa, it was mainly the Japanese WD. If they were in shakubuku mode, they could be extra fake, extra tolerant and extra, extra kind - like an charming Jekyll. In non-shakubuku situations, out in everyday life, if anyone was ever unfortunate enough to make a social misstep (especially in the service industry) or even simply just rub them the wrong way, it would be common for Hyde to make a brief appearance. I have a theory that they enjoy a certain status and role within the organization and are most comfortable within that environment. When that doesn't translate out into the real world, you can occasionally see such inappropriate manifestations by them out in society.

Fellow sgi "buddhists"/cultists (whichever one prefers) will know what it means when I say a kind of reverse, negative, perverse "esho funi" (oneness of life and the environment) by these so-called "bodhisattvas" (enlightened ones). (Sorry for the cult-speak, but I'm just pointing out some doctrinal hypocrisy with such members.) It was a much rarer occurrence by a men's or young men's div. member and whenever it did happen, I noticed it was only from the more wild-eyed delusional whacked out kind of believers (the kind of people I went out of my way to avoid as I got older, when I was in the organization).

If anyone ever tried to repeatedly shakubuku me, just like when they used to repeatedly home visit me, I'd rip them apart after the second or third time. In my experience, unfortunately, it's the only message that will penetrate their thick skulls. As for the Mrs. Hyde Japanese WD, I've found that a shockingly blunt, candid and even ruder retort will immediately silence and send them angrily mumbling on their way (they are simply not used to it and at a loss as to how to respond). And in fairness to me, I will just also add that I only ever did it when I had the undeserved misfortune to unexpectedly be introduced to Linda Blair's other personality, first, and without warning.

Quote
rattyboy
I was watching The movie "The Wave" which is about a classroom experiment in totalitarianism. Also known as "The Welle German" on Youtube. The students are separated from their naturally formed friendships by being made to sit in assigned seats and for the sake of unity wear white shirts. You can see this 30 minutes into the movie. The teacher also leads them into marching in in unity and gives them an enemy to march against. (The anarchy class downstairs). The transformation in the faces looks so familiar. The teacher states that there are "no poor students just poor grades. You're in my class, you're good". Replace with "No bad people, just bad karma, you're in SGI, you're good." Even as he has them smiling and marching in unity he offers them an opportunity to consider that this is different but quickly takes control by the end of the sentence (completes the yes-set?) He says: " I know its unorthodox but why not try something new?" Start this movie just before the half hour mark where the classroom experiment begins if you don't want to watch it from the beginning.

Thanks, I've checked it out. Agreed. I definitely see shades of the old nsa there, right down to the same colored shirts, the photo ID badges (anybody remember those!?), the soka-SS-han manning the doors, the wild-eyed super devoted (i.e., power hungry) member(s), the group think mentality, the us-vs.-them mindset, etc.. All painfully familiar. Some essential viewing.

Some posts regarding "leaders gone bad" that I can relate to:

Quote
tsukimoto

Quote
backnforth
Since we are talking about the craziness of recruitment i.e. shakabuku campaigns, I'll share an experience I had in the 1980's. It was street shakubuku time one evening at the kaikon and I was fairly new and not really on-board with the whole shakubuku thing, afterall I was brought up to 'not talk to strangers'. The Japanese woman in charge was the Chapter or Headquarters leader and had the tough pioneer spirit. She was giving out orders and fully expecting everyone to only say "Hai!". I was in the back of the room and the leader was pairing up people to go out to find strangers to introduce to buddhism. My thoughts were that I might go if I was with my sponsor, let's call her Amanda. But when the leader told me I would be paired up with someone else, I said No, but I would go with Amanda. We began going back and forth which led to a full blown argument where she accused me of causing disunity and she literally pushed me out of the room, telling me to "Leave!"


I was devastated and shocked. A few people came to my aid and we went into the Gohonzon room to chant. I was quite upset and crying and they were compassionate. Looking back on that incident I realize that they never said they thought the leader was wrong in her actions, but they DID point out the Oneness of Life and Environment concept and that I needed to raise my life condition to get rid of the negative experiences. I can't say I disagree with that, but there is always the external reality of the situation to consider and she WAS wrong.

Once, we put some people in the car and took them straight to the temple and they received Gohonzon.

Once my sponsor and a youth leader were together doing street shakubuku and a man pulled knife on them.

I could never get onboard with street shakabuku either. I always sneaked out when it came time to go out and do it. I agreed to do a lot of ridiculous things for SGI, but somehow, I just couldn't street shakabuku! Leaders lectured me about my "lack of courage," and "lack of compassion for others' lives." I did feel guilty -- but not guilty enough to do street shakabuku.

Some other people have also posted in this thread about abusive leaders. One woman (Sushigrrl?) wrote about her experiences in Young Women's Division, having to do activities in the hot sun, not allowed breaks for water -- and then the leader yelling at her in front of everyone because she fainted.

There were a number of times when ZERO guests were brought to meetings, so that meant that we all had to go out and find somebody - ANYBODY - to bring back so that we could have a meeting. I remember the mind games, guilt trips and the threats (don't come back without handing out all your pamphlets/nmrk cards.) If you didn't want to do it, you'd be treated like sh** and I even saw some of the yd being put down so much that some even had tears in their eyes from being made to feel like an evil sub-human creature for not wanting to go guest fishing. Even back then, I thought that this was no way to be treating members who give up their time and voluntarily come to meetings, etc.. And just like backnforth's experience, there was NEVER an expression of guilt or regret, much less any apologies for the way they abused the members (it was always up to the other lower members to go take care of it and smooth things over).

Street shakubuku was insanity. There was even one incident where a member was robbed at gunpoint doing such activities; ironically, they ultimately came to view it as a "benefit" that they were not hurt and used it to strengthen their faith and practice. Not sure what to say that kind of thinking, other than what I've already said - it's insanity.

Quote
Rothaus
@tsukimoto and backnforth

Well we often heard of SGI-'leaders' loosing their heads in this forum. One reason might be that they put themselves under pressure to reach certain 'goals' and some of these goals might depend on the co-operation of others. Another reason might be though that some are plain and simple psychos. Sorry to use that word, but now after some time has gone by since my departure and common sense kicking back in - thats what would go through my head today. The 'best' thing is – people like that seem to go undetected in SGI and are even put into a position to give people 'guidance'. Today I find it hard to understand why I accepted some peoples advice in SGI (in all fairness their also have been some extraordinary characters I had meaningful conversations with).

Agreed, I'd say it's a combination of both. Some were definitely psycho and others were probably just scared of being scolded from their own higher ups. In any event, I have no doubt that the pressure made some of the leaders even more psycho than they started out. When you put mentally unstable people in charge and apply pressure, it's no surprise that things got out of hand and so ridiculous. An even sadder thing about it all was that in the end, the vast majority of these street shakubuku converts were only temporary members before fading away to history. From what I could see and remember, very little was gained from it all, except for misusing and abusing already sincere members and creating even more damage in the long run (just look at how many of us here are now ex-members with the same experiences and observations). Lots of stuff turned me off from back in those days and this kind of stuff was right at the top of my list, too.

Hitch wrote:

Quote

Street shakubuku was insanity. There was even one incident where a member was robbed at gunpoint doing such activities; ironically, they ultimately came to view it as a "benefit" that they were not hurt and used it to strengthen their faith and practice.

Not sure what to say that kind of thinking, other than what I've already said - it's insanity.

Here's what I like to call it: Eating shit and insisting its sugar. Another author called it 'thought criming oneself'.

For the corrosive effects of being in leadership role, even when randomly assigned to that role for just a couple of hours read here. This experiment done at Stanford deserves to become as well known as Philip Zimbardo's Prison Experiment.

[www.google.com]

Now imagine people being in leadership roles for years, not just for the couple of hours that the experiment lasted...eh?

Its like that old college T - shirt slogan Instant Asshole - Add Alcohol

Quote
rattyboy

Quote
Hitch
I have a general question that I would like to throw out there to see if any you former members can relate:

Did you ever notice how hardcore gakkai members (I've seen it in both Japan and The U.S.) would treat fellow member encounters entirely differently than they would your average non-member out the street, in the real world? They would put on these fake Disneyland-like smiles you see with the greeters and guides at The Magical Kingdom, with fellow members. Yet if you were ever with them in a non-gakkai setting, the fangs would sometimes deploy and they would literally bite people and could be incredibly rude to non-members, way out of proportion to how any "normal" person would react to everyday situations. Some real life Jekyll & Hyde stuff.

Just some more of those little clues that started to help pry open the skeptical thinking box in my brain that eventually saved me from this cult.

I'd like to put Hitch's question out there again. What little time I spent in public with people from the SGi I saw significant separation from society. Any other views on the SGI individual in relation to the non-members?

I have to say in the areas where I practiced, non-members were treated with respect, particularly spouses and family members during and after meetings at their houses.

I have noticed more in recent years that there is definite pressure to make a decision to receive the Gohonzon...people are not encouraged to keep on attending meetings indefinitely without the committment to get one. There comes the time where you poop or get off the pot.

Corboy, I can vouch for the fact that I saw a ton of "power poisoned" "leaders" back in my day. It's definitely a real phenomenon, because I lived it (on the receiving end) in the nsa/sg/sgi-usa cult.

ScoobyDooby, I could be totally off base, but purely as an intellectual exercise I can offer you a cult-filtered view of your situation (fwiw) -

Quote
ScoobyDooby
As someone who is married to a long time practioner but who doesn't practice himself, I am often treated indifferently by many of the division and area leaders.

In my experience, the indifference is really a reluctant tolerance simply because you are associated with an established practitioner/believer/member. If you two, for some reason, ever separated, I think that indifferent treatment would quickly shift to either exclude or (depending on the individual's mindset) compassion shakubuku you (I've seen mind games played where they would encourage one ex-couple member to start practicing to win back the other person that they lost. Whether it ever happens or not is besides the point, all that really matters is that that person starts to practice).

It's also interesting that you said "division and area leaders", because this group is distinct from the general membership. The latter group, for the most part, is just ordinary kind folk who are either new to it all or just going along for the ride, but the former is a group that has started down the road to mental thought reform; hence the indifference.

Quote
ScoobyDooby
There is one in particular who has in the past treated me with outright disdain (tried to shakabuko me on several occasions). To be honest, I have had little problems with regular members though I find their Ikeda worship and loyalty to the organization beyond belief.

IMO, the disdain is a reflection of that individual's frustration in not being able to hendoku iyaku (change poison into medicine). In other words, you're viewed as kind of problem source and they are trying to transform that problem (you) into a source of fortune and growth (by getting you to change your views about the practice/organization). It's an admission of sorts that they are failing in their practice and have to redouble their efforts. Those kinds of people are manipulative and most likely an example of the kind of psycho leaders/members of which I often speak.

Like I said, I don't know if any of this actually applies to your situation, but from a general point of view, this scenario most likely has some kernels of truth that are in operation from the cult's perspective.

Hitch, you are right on again with your explanation of the leader's behavior with ScoobyDooby. The whole purpose of shakabuku is to help others become happy/change poison into medicine/double and triple the shakabuku-ers' fortune and benefits. That's what we were told, right?

Double and triple the benefits....that's a huge dangling carrot right there. Because leaders are on the hamster wheel to chase that fortune-- those pesky obstacles, i.e. people who just aren't buying it, can definitely cause cases of the crankies. Which, of course, derails their efforts even more. If someone does not buy into SGI, being treated as if they are poor and deluded ain't gonna make a change of heart.

Quote
Shavoy
Hitch, you are right on again with your explanation of the leader's behavior with ScoobyDooby. The whole purpose of shakabuku is to help others become happy/change poison into medicine/double and triple the shakabuku-ers' fortune and benefits. That's what we were told, right?

Double and triple the benefits....that's a huge dangling carrot right there. Because leaders are on the hamster wheel to chase that fortune-- those pesky obstacles, i.e. people who just aren't buying it, can definitely cause cases of the crankies. Which, of course, derails their efforts even more. If someone does not buy into SGI, being treated as if they are poor and deluded ain't gonna make a change of heart.

You're right, too Shavoy. I had completely forgotten about the "double and triple the benefits" spiel. Heard that stuff all the time, too!

For some of the supposedly enlightened bodhisattvas of the earth, with sensei engraved in their hearts, they sure can metamorphosize into some cruel cold-blooded individuals if you are ever against them. I've seen it firsthand.