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Hitch

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simplify

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Rattyboy

"How many times did we have to hear some guest leader at a local meeting tell us how they started with the group and how their friends and family thought they had "joined a cult". It sounds like a risky thing for them to say, but it is a neurolinguistic technique that allows the listener to relate to the experience and the discomfort about the possible cult question they might have had also, but to only partially process this in the "safe" environment of being talked at by some allegedly wise leader. The leader's story moves on, then there is the happy result. Any doubt is erased. Maybe people on the forum didn't experience this, I don't know."


Rattyboy, I definitely experienced this. At a big all leaders meeting I remember one of our national leaders giving an experience and mentioning that her boyfriend didn't practice, but that was good because he kept 'cult watch' for her. I suppose my subconscious reaction was that if a national leader was aware of this and checking out that her actions weren't culty, that everything was OK.

I noticed the same thing rattyboy. I too remember hearing this on multiple occasions at meetings and also remember lots of fellow members nodding and smiling in relief and agreement. This is a perfect example as to how the "brainwashing" in the gakkai is a very soft, under the radar form of thought reform. Just like the "soft power" tactics discussed above to physically manipulate people, this is the mental manipulation at work. It is all disarmingly subtle and almost imperceptible. Unless you are accustomed to critical thinking, it's very likely that you won't even notice it.

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rattyboy
In addition to the "joined a cult" experience that a leader shared during a contribution campaign time, the leader was talking about the members' contributions going to pay the leaders' salaries. "and believe me, they need it!" the leader said. I immediately thought 2 things (besides rage): I had heard about or read that "Believe me" is an obvious but effective command. I figured "they need it" was a way of suggesting just compensation for untold great hours of work for Kosen Rufu and World Peace rather than directly stating SGI does not have the money. If I had not already been critical and on my guard, believe me, I would've been getting all misty eyed for those leaders who would be doing all that work and not getting paid enough.

There was one occasion that I explicitly remember where the members were told that sgi-usa doesn't even take in enough funds to cover the utility bills of the local community center, so Ikeda, in his immense compassion for the American members, pays for it for them out of his own pockets. Therefore, we should show our appreciation for such consideration and try to do what we can. The chutzpah, at times, could be jaw-dropping. That's one thing that I also remember about the gakkai "leaders", their condescending arrogance was always "on" full-throttle.

Wow....pays for them out of his own pockets.....was this fairly recently, Hitch?

I want to know what the intent of the Soka Gakkai really is.......is it really just a massive ego-play for one guy with total world domination as the "winning" result? What do these leaders (not necessarily the Big Guys and Gals, but your chapter, district, etc. leader, get out of this? Does this make them happy?

Excellent post corboy. I especially enjoyed the "Yes Set" discussion. This mb really has a lot of critical information that people need to educate themselves about and be aware of.

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Shavoy
Reading the other posts in the last few days brings up another question, well, I've asked it before methinks, but here goes: It fascinates me that Japanese culture and mindset allows the unwavering devotion of the Japanese members to P.I. and the Gakkai....yet, so many Japanese resist and dislike the Gakkai--more of an individualistic, western hemisphere reaction than I thought?

Not sure I saw this question before, but I'll take a shot at it. The gakkai was born out of the ashes of WWII, at a time of national crisis, soul searching and confusion. The "rush hour of the gods", it has been called. Recall, also that Gen. MacArthur was equated to be like the shoten zenjin (protective buddhist gods) that allowed the gakkai to prosper. During times of very low national self-esteem, some of more baser of human instincts start to reach for the controls, and there is also an increased susceptibility to magical thinking and easy manipulation. IMO, this explains the initial appeal of the gakkai. Ironically, they are so disliked now because of their intolerant, persistent and militaristic ways. Japan is a spectrum of different individuals just like any other nation: for example, there are some who want to do away with the emperor system all together, others who tolerate it for tradition reasons and yet others who want to reinstall him to full power and past glory. It's slowly becoming a nation that is increasingly distrustful of and starting to question those in power (the Fukushima debacle is a recent case in point). It's nowhere near as individualistic as the west, but it is following, slowly, about 20-30 years behind some of the same paths as the west (for good and bad). So, while the gakkai has many members in Japan (it is perfectly suited to the Japanese mindset), it in no way has broad, universal support. They have reached a comfortable saturation point, though. I also think that it is no coincidence that they have set their eyes abroad towards International membership (it's spreading like wildfire thru South America, especially Brazil, with their large Japanese population influence).

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Shavoy
Wow....pays for them out of his own pockets.....was this fairly recently, Hitch?

I want to know what the intent of the Soka Gakkai really is.......is it really just a massive ego-play for one guy with total world domination as the "winning" result? What do these leaders (not necessarily the Big Guys and Gals, but your chapter, district, etc. leader, get out of this? Does this make them happy?

The utility bill story was from long ago, I don't even remember when, but I do remember which "kaikan" it was at and where I was sitting when I heard it. I remember this particular pitch story because even at the time I recognized it as ridiculously naive and insultingly manipulative (come to think of it, that's also how I felt about the "experiences" I always heard at all the meetings, too).

The chapter and district leaders that I had and knew were very sincere, although I hate to say it (in retrospect) - not very bright, people. They, IMO, practiced for their wives and went along with the program for family unity. I don't want to say too much, but they all died rather unpleasant deaths (health ravages, alone, accidents, etc.), despite their sincere, decades long practice. Again, from a retrospective point of view, it speaks volumes to me about the practice. They were good people whom I still think about and miss; they also deserved (based on my years of practice with them) a better ending than what they eventually got.

Generally speaking, what do most people get out of it? A happy delusion (JMO).

I have a general question that I would like to throw out there to see if any you former members can relate:

Did you ever notice how hardcore gakkai members (I've seen it in both Japan and The U.S.) would treat fellow member encounters entirely differently than they would your average non-member out the street, in the real world? They would put on these fake Disneyland-like smiles you see with the greeters and guides at The Magical Kingdom, with fellow members. Yet if you were ever with them in a non-gakkai setting, the fangs would sometimes deploy and they would literally bite people and could be incredibly rude to non-members, way out of proportion to how any "normal" person would react to everyday situations. Some real life Jekyll & Hyde stuff.

Just some more of those little clues that started to help pry open the skeptical thinking box in my brain that eventually saved me from this cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2012 09:33AM by Hitch.

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Hitch
I have a general question that I would like to throw out there to see if any you former members can relate:

Did you ever notice how hardcore gakkai members (I've seen it in both Japan and The U.S.) would treat fellow member encounters entirely differently than they would your average non-member out the street, in the real world? They would put on these fake Disneyland-like smiles you see with the greeters and guides at The Magical Kingdom, with fellow members. Yet if you were ever with them in a non-gakkai setting, the fangs would sometimes deploy and they would literally bite people and could be incredibly rude to non-members, way out of proportion to how any "normal" person would react to everyday situations. Some real life Jekyll & Hyde stuff.

Just some more of those little clues that started to help pry open the skeptical thinking box in my brain that eventually saved me from this cult.

Somewhere in these pages I believe I mentioned having lunch with some women's division members who were cold and stone-faced toward the very friendly woman working and taking the order at the counter. This woman was probably in her late 40's and part of that business for a while, or maybe the owner, rather than a smiling worker for hire, so her "ichinen" if I dare call it was natural and comforting. She was trying to engage us in conversation but these Gakkai leaders were not making eye contact and kept their mouths drawn down. I guess this woman wasn't neutral or expressing suffering so the shakabuku feelers didn't come out. It was total disdain in the body language of these SGI women. I mouthed a silent "sorry" to this woman who looked distressed at these subtle and overt displays of disrespect. (She still tried to let her genuine smile and joy of life shine through). These SGI women were normally very smily and almost giggley with members. You would have to be there, but I know it didn't feel right. I saw enough fang to convince me something was wrong with these people.

I bet if that restaurant worker had expressed an interest in attending a meeting or learning about nmrk, they would have done a 180 in their demeanor. (Incidentally, if you ever fall out with some of these people, you'll be on the receiving end of the same behavior in the blink of an eye. I speak from experience.)

In America, the worst offenders were by far the WD and to a lesser degree, the YMD. The Men's Div. were always pretty cool and normal with me. In Japan, however, it's ALL divisions. I was once making my way to a kaikan in a very busy city and the shortest, quickest route was thru a different sect's temple area. The Japanese YMD who I was with, I thought was going to practically spit on some of the people he encountered in the same area; needless to say, we wound up walking all the way around - the long way - and arrived late for our meeting (late, but still "pure" and "unslanderous").

This kind of stuff just isn't sane behavior.

Interesting but not surprising, Hitch. For public consumption, it's all interfaith this and interfaith that. Their heads [minds] are split like a lumberjack's log.

Nichijew

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I guess this woman wasn't neutral or expressing suffering so the shakabuku feelers didn't come out.

From the description given, this happy person had no vulnerable spots for the SG shakabaku outreach 'tentacles' to penetrate.

And by her being grounded, friendly and at the same time being too happy and healthy for the outreach tentacles to penetrate and ingest her into the maw of SG...

Perhaps the SG customers 'iced her'/were rejecting of her because:

**She she was living proof that someone had vitality, a place in life and happiness and healthy apart from SG.

*She was a living living refutation of the entire purpose of the SG people's lives. Perhaps at an unconscious level, she radiated what they did not have and they wanted her away from them ASAP because unconsciously she was holding up a mirror of human kindness and vitality that proved SG was unnecessary.

*She was activating doubts these people had about SG at an unconscious level and they couldnt stand to face this in themselves so they were nasty to her..all to make her move away from their table.

*If any newbie SG recruits were at the table, this woman was all the more dangerous because she demontrated one could be grounded and happy without being in SG.

Finally, to account for the Jekyll and Hyde behavior, this happens in lots of groups in addition to SG.

If you are in some entity where you have to show happiness all the time, your disowned feelings of doubt, anger, crabbiness dont disappear. All those 'bad' feelings get shoved aside. Eventually one shits them out onto a designated culprit, such as the group scapegoat, or anyone seen faltering, or some enemy designated by the leader.

People who become ill or meet with ordinary human misfortune are often pressured to hide this, and worse yet, blame themselves.

Its all very different from how Buddha woke up by seeing someone ill, someone old and someone dead, and at last forced his adult servants and parents to tell him he too would face all this.

Buddha didnt deny any of this. It gave him the energy to leave princely life and wake up.

At least so the story goes.

He rejected the trappings of power that Ikeda so loves.

And Buddhism warns about the hazards of intoxication. Mass hysteria and rallies are as much intoxication as beer and sake and any other drug.

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corboy
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I guess this woman wasn't neutral or expressing suffering so the shakabuku feelers didn't come out.

From the description given, this happy person had no vulnerable spots for the SG shakabaku outreach 'tentacles' to penetrate.

And by her being grounded, friendly and at the same time being too happy and healthy for the outreach tentacles to penetrate and ingest her into the maw of SG...

Perhaps the SG customers 'iced her'/were rejecting of her because:

**She she was living proof that someone had vitality, a place in life and happiness and healthy apart from SG.

*She was a living living refutation of the entire purpose of the SG people's lives. Perhaps at an unconscious level, she radiated what they did not have and they wanted her away from them ASAP because unconsciously she was holding up a mirror of human kindness and vitality that proved SG was unnecessary.

*She was activating doubts these people had about SG at an unconscious level and they couldnt stand to face this in themselves so they were nasty to her..all to make her move away from their table.

*If any newbie SG recruits were at the table, this woman was all the more dangerous because she demontrated one could be grounded and happy without being in SG.

Finally, to account for the Jekyll and Hyde behavior, this happens in lots of groups in addition to SG.

If you are in some entity where you have to show happiness all the time, your disowned feelings of doubt, anger, crabbiness dont disappear. All those 'bad' feelings get shoved aside. Eventually one shits them out onto a designated culprit, such as the group scapegoat, or anyone seen faltering, or some enemy designated by the leader.

People who become ill or meet with ordinary human misfortune are often pressured to hide this, and worse yet, blame themselves.

Its all very different from how Buddha woke up by seeing someone ill, someone old and someone dead, and at last forced his adult servants and parents to tell him he too would face all this.

Buddha didnt deny any of this. It gave him the energy to leave princely life and wake up.

At least so the story goes.

He rejected the trappings of power that Ikeda so loves.

And Buddhism warns about the hazards of intoxication. Mass hysteria and rallies are as much intoxication as beer and sake and any other drug.

Exactly Corboy. How difficult it is to restore sight to the blind!

Nichijew

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Hitch
Excellent post corboy. I especially enjoyed the "Yes Set" discussion. This mb really has a lot of critical information that people need to educate themselves about and be aware of.

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Shavoy
Reading the other posts in the last few days brings up another question, well, I've asked it before methinks, but here goes: It fascinates me that Japanese culture and mindset allows the unwavering devotion of the Japanese members to P.I. and the Gakkai....yet, so many Japanese resist and dislike the Gakkai--more of an individualistic, western hemisphere reaction than I thought?

Not sure I saw this question before, but I'll take a shot at it. The gakkai was born out of the ashes of WWII, at a time of national crisis, soul searching and confusion. The "rush hour of the gods", it has been called. Recall, also that Gen. MacArthur was equated to be like the shoten zenjin (protective buddhist gods) that allowed the gakkai to prosper. During times of very low national self-esteem, some of more baser of human instincts start to reach for the controls, and there is also an increased susceptibility to magical thinking and easy manipulation. IMO, this explains the initial appeal of the gakkai. Ironically, they are so disliked now because of their intolerant, persistent and militaristic ways. Japan is a spectrum of different individuals just like any other nation: for example, there are some who want to do away with the emperor system all together, others who tolerate it for tradition reasons and yet others who want to reinstall him to full power and past glory. It's slowly becoming a nation that is increasingly distrustful of and starting to question those in power (the Fukushima debacle is a recent case in point). It's nowhere near as individualistic as the west, but it is following, slowly, about 20-30 years behind some of the same paths as the west (for good and bad). So, while the gakkai has many members in Japan (it is perfectly suited to the Japanese mindset), it in no way has broad, universal support. They have reached a comfortable saturation point, though. I also think that it is no coincidence that they have set their eyes abroad towards International membership (it's spreading like wildfire thru South America, especially Brazil, with their large Japanese population influence).

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Shavoy
Wow....pays for them out of his own pockets.....was this fairly recently, Hitch?

I want to know what the intent of the Soka Gakkai really is.......is it really just a massive ego-play for one guy with total world domination as the "winning" result? What do these leaders (not necessarily the Big Guys and Gals, but your chapter, district, etc. leader, get out of this? Does this make them happy?

The utility bill story was from long ago, I don't even remember when, but I do remember which "kaikan" it was at and where I was sitting when I heard it. I remember this particular pitch story because even at the time I recognized it as ridiculously naive and insultingly manipulative (come to think of it, that's also how I felt about the "experiences" I always heard at all the meetings, too).

The chapter and district leaders that I had and knew were very sincere, although I hate to say it (in retrospect) - not very bright, people. They, IMO, practiced for their wives and went along with the program for family unity. I don't want to say too much, but they all died rather unpleasant deaths (health ravages, alone, accidents, etc.), despite their sincere, decades long practice. Again, from a retrospective point of view, it speaks volumes to me about the practice. They were good people whom I still think about and miss; they also deserved (based on my years of practice with them) a better ending than what they eventually got.

Generally speaking, what do most people get out of it? A happy delusion (JMO).

Hitch, thanks for your answers...that's very sad about the leaders that you knew, where their lives were when they passed on. It just goes to show that SGI Magical Thinking isn't the ticket they purport it to be. A happy delusion....yes, human nature is to want certainty in life.

You explained very well about Japan. It speaks of human nature yet again, how nothing is black and white, there's a lot of gray running through the spectrum. Seems to me that Brazil is the next hotspot of world-wide KR domination. In P.I. videos, the South American members literally seem to fall to pieces in his presence.

In regards to your question on members' behavior when out and about---I remember feeling that way, just a little more on the 411 tip when it came to "true happiness". Posters on this thread have talked about the arrogance that creeps in, thinking you have the "true way" and it's sad that everyone else won't seem to "get it". So, you just might, as a sincere ambassador, doing your shakabuku duty, not be able to hide your disappointment and smug superiority.

The point also made, in particular with the lady who was naturally ebullient and joyful---her "life-condition" could definetely have been a irritant factor, causing jealousy and anxiety for SGI die-harders practicing "the one and only true religion".

Yes, Corboy, I agree with what you wrote about the "experience' I observed with the lack of interaction between the civilian and the mighty WD of Soka Gakkai USA. I also think another important point is:
* She represented a successfully grounded woman, at least by appearances, who was not an SGI women's division member and that may have been threatening to these SGI women. Let's not forget our 2 divisional and 4 divisional training boxes of programming.

I was watching The movie "The Wave" which is about a classroom experiment in totalitarianism. Also known as "The Welle German" on Youtube. The students are separated from their naturally formed friendships by being made to sit in assigned seats and for the sake of unity wear white shirts. You can see this 30 minutes into the movie. The teacher also leads them into marching in in unity and gives them an enemy to march against. (The anarchy class downstairs). The transformation in the faces looks so familiar. The teacher states that there are "no poor students just poor grades. You're in my class, you're good". Replace with "No bad people, just bad karma, you're in SGI, you're good." Even as he has them smiling and marching in unity he offers them an opportunity to consider that this is different but quickly takes control by the end of the sentence (completes the yes-set?) He says: " I know its unorthodox but why not try something new?" Start this movie just before the half hour mark where the classroom experiment begins if you don't want to watch it from the beginning.