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Findingmywaytoday
One common reaction I have gotten when they (the SGI people) talk about Mentor and Disciple is that the idea of M-D gets lost in translation, or they say something like they don't worship Ikeda. I have heard this often. I can't buy it. I have looked up what a mentor means, and I have l looked up what disciple means. To me, I agree with Shavoy in that it is one thing to be a disciple of Jesus, but not of Ikeda.

I also wonder what the leaders and such would say if I said I wanted to take Nichiren or Shakyamuni as my mentor. I would love to see the look on their faces. I also feel that in recent SGI meetings, one is allowed to ask questions, but there is this hidden restriction of what is okay to ask, and what is not.

Anyhow, enough for now. Thanks for all your posts!

I have heard both those answers, too, Findingmywaytoday. How can M/D get "lost in translation? Another SGI frame for not worshiping P.I. is: We wordship the Law, not the person. Or that we chant to know Sensei's heart and in that way we are equal with him in the fight for kosen-rufu.

I, too, can imagine the look on leaders' faces in regards to taking Nichiren or Shakyamuni as the mentor. That would go down like a lead balloon, you betcha!

There is no real democracy in SGI anymore, so asking questions? Nope.

Right Shavoy, we need our questions answered about how to live our life and how to overcome our sufferings by SGI actresses, clarinet players, neurosurgeons, principles, pie makers, fisherman, unemployed car salesmen, state district attorneys, congressmen, authors, soccer stars.....because they know so much more than we.

Nichijew

Corboy, the sg is the most militaristic "peace" organization I've ever seen.

The more tired, sweaty, wild-eyed, unthinking, obedient and out of your senses you were, the more you "bonded" and were accepted in the ymd. The goal of the ymd leaders in my day was to make their members into bigger mirror images of their own numbskull selves.

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Shavoy
How can M/D get "lost in translation?

"Lost in translation" is the default "gray" answer that the Japanese mindset always reverts to when they are being less than candid and/or you have unwittingly entered a zone that only "fellow Japanese" can truly understand due to their "unique" insight. It's also BS special pleading (in this case, the assertion that non-true Japanese -whatever that's supposed to mean- lack the ability to fully comprehend, appreciate, and apply the meaning).

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Shavoy
There is no real democracy in SGI anymore, so asking questions? Nope.

The sg is no more democratic than it is a peace organization. At its heart, it treats its members as property of the organization. It's autocratic, oppressive and dictatorial.

Asking hard questions that they are not prepared for, will never get you an honest discussion/dialogue in the sg. All it will get you is a hard, cold, stone-faced stare, initial silence and then a curt non-answer. If asked of a very senior salaried leader, you will also find yourself immediately ostracized afterwards. I've encountered it first hand, many times and it is always the same. It's almost as if they are looking at you and thinking to themselves, "there's no way we're going to be able to fully get this person on-board, make note of that, don't waste any more of your time, and move on."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 05:52AM by Hitch.

"Lost in translation" is the default "gray" answer that the Japanese mindset always reverts to when they are being less than candid and/or you have unwittingly entered a zone that only "fellow Japanese" can truly understand due to their "unique" insight. It's also BS special pleading (in this case, the assertion that non-true Japanese -whatever that's supposed to mean- lack the ability to fully comprehend, appreciate, and apply the meaning).

Reading Robert Twigger's aikido memoir, Angry White Pyjamas, may be a way to get insight into the Japanese culture, in relation to a high demand organization (Yoshinkan Aikido) that came close to being cultic, but was not.

Twigger described how one was, in effect, property of the dojo. But..you signed forms beforhand making it clear you were entering a high demand situation that would last a year, was notoriously brutal, and carried the risk of death or severe injury. The dojo was a battlefield. The year long Yoshinkan Aikido course (aka 'The Riot Police course' was billed as the toughest martial arts program in the world--(It ranked in the top ten, at any rate.)

But if you came out the other end by graduating, you actually had something--you were qualified to teach Yoshinkan aikido-a credential that has a recognized value all over the world.

A big difference between Yoshikan dojo and the SG was that the dojo did not present itself as a solution to world peace.

It and its sensei had no religious pretensions. The sensei lived modestly. No entourage.

It offered a way to win fights. It had enough of a reputation that the year long aikido course was required training for the Japanese riot police.

Twigger demonstrated that he and other others students felt quite able to hate their instructors, including one guy (a Westerner) who was a bully. If caught lying, students were punished.

There is a wealth of info on Japanese culture.

(I am not a friend of Twigger's and stand to gain nothing whether anyone reads Angry White Pyjamas or not)

Key thing is, the dojo did not go around proslytizing. It and its leader had earned fame and for that reason, despite its fierce reputation, people recruited themselves.

The book has some intriguing stuff about day to day Japanese culture. So reading it can be a way to see where SG is typical and where it is extreme, even in relation to Japanese culture.

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Hitch
Corboy, the sg is the most militaristic "peace" organization I've ever seen.

The more tired, sweaty, wild-eyed, unthinking, obedient and out of your senses you were, the more you "bonded" and were accepted in the ymd. The goal of the ymd leaders in my day was to make their members into bigger mirror images of their own numbskull selves.

Quote
Shavoy
How can M/D get "lost in translation?

"Lost in translation" is the default "gray" answer that the Japanese mindset always reverts to when they are being less than candid and/or you have unwittingly entered a zone that only "fellow Japanese" can truly understand due to their "unique" insight. It's also BS special pleading (in this case, the assertion that non-true Japanese -whatever that's supposed to mean- lack the ability to fully comprehend, appreciate, and apply the meaning).

Quote
Shavoy
There is no real democracy in SGI anymore, so asking questions? Nope.

The sg is no more democratic than it is a peace organization. At its heart, it treats its members as property of the organization. It's autocratic, oppressive and dictatorial.

Asking hard questions that they are not prepared for, will never get you an honest discussion/dialogue in the sg. All it will get you is a hard, cold, stone-faced stare, initial silence and then a curt non-answer. If asked of a very senior salaried leader, you will also find yourself immediately ostracized afterwards. I've encountered it first hand, many times and it is always the same. It's almost as if they are looking at you and thinking to themselves, "there's no way we're going to be able to fully get this person on-board, make note of that, don't waste any more of your time, and move on."

Hitch, brilliant....

You hit nails on the head again...."There's no way we're going to be able to fully get this person on-board, make note of that, don't waste any more of your time, and move on."

Man, it's like the Stepford Wives, you know? I've also seen where leaders, when being thrown a "critical of SGI" curveball, just look at you like.."Oh, no.....this is not good at all...where can we go with this and still hold the party-line without slander...and encourage this member who is going through serious sanso shima, obviously" or whatever the fear is. And they are genuinely perplexed on what to do next.

Thanks, also, for clarifying "lost in translation".

I'd really like to ask some of these leaders, provided they were able to let a little bit of hair down, what is this SGI practice REALLY doing for them?

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Nichijew
Right Shavoy, we need our questions answered about how to live our life and how to overcome our sufferings by SGI actresses, clarinet players, neurosurgeons, principles, pie makers, fisherman, unemployed car salesmen, state district attorneys, congressmen, authors, soccer stars.....because they know so much more than we.

Nichijew

Ab-so-lute-ly, Nichijew! Mark, I know we talked about the Gosho before, and I don't think I asked you which particular Gosho is sanctioned by NST? The SGI version gets re-written, so I was wondering.

Hi Shavoy. The short answer is, they recognize only their NST Gosho [Gosho Zenshu] in modern Japanese and its translation into English, French, Spanish.. ...etc. The original Gosho, virtually a photograph of the original manuscripts by Nichiren, is the Showa Tehon Collection. The Nichiren Shu also uses their own Gosho Zenshu as well as the Showa Tehon but the scholars and scholar priests only use the Showa Tehon [except the Nichiren Shoshu priests]. The problems arise because some priests [Nichiren Shoshu and some Nichiren Shu] and the Soka Gakkai are very slick. They change a word here or a word there, add a word here or a word there, subtract a word here or a word there, particularly in the more important passages, and voila, their perverse doctrines and practices are validated. The Japanese character flaws are not few according to Nichiren who called them the most perverse people on earth.

Nichijew



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2012 08:39AM by Nichijew.

FNCC - The Cult Retreat:

Propaganda video [www.youtube.com].

Why did you come here and what did you get out of it?

Attendees paraphrased excerpts - followed by my (Hitch's) take on their words.

1) "I don't have a lot of connection." - There aren't enough hardcore brainwashed members from my area, yet. I'm going to become one and make more.

2) "A bigger perspective of what Kosen Rufu is about." - I need to better understand the concepts behind the cult speak, so that I can propagate it myself.

3) "Being encouraged in the practice." - My practice isn't helping me as much as I thought it would. Please change my mind about this.

4) "So many people had spoken so highly of it. YWD had struggles and came here and came back so rejuvenated and revitalized. Take our local organization to the next step." - Everyone else is doing it, so I had better, too. They finally convinced me to come.

5) "I wanted to challenge myself to take the next step in my life." - My practice isn't really helping me in a dramatic way. I need to become deeper immersed into the cult think.

6) "A huge opportunity to renew your faith and determinations." - A huge opportunity for thought reform and manipulation.

7) "This is really like Sensei's spirit all over the grounds. It's so great to come here and meet with like minded people who want to do Kosen Rufu with Sensei. REALLY EXCITING!" - I've lost all connection with reality and am off the deep end with this cult. REALLY off the deep end. I may start my own Ikeda fan club when I get back home, too.

8) "Don't think about it so much. Just do it. You can try to intellectualize it, but until you actually do it, you don't really understand what you can really get. The minute I got to the airport on the way here, things really began to change. I wasn't sure why, it's because you are making a determination. It's that kind of determination that begins to move things in your life. It's really a great place to renew your determination, your vow and energize your practice." - I don't think for myself anymore and my entire worldview is now filtered thru the lens of my cult practice.

9) "It helped me understand in a new way to how I can reply to my mentor." - I can now be a better servile member to Ikeda.

10) "I changed my life by coming here. No question in my mind. This place was given to us by SGI Pres. Ikeda as a place for member to refresh and deepen their faith, their understanding of Buddhism and ultimately transform our lives. It's a gift from Sensei, in a way it's our determination to come here and respond to our mentor, his calling and to bring that back to and really encourage our members back at home. So it's really for everybody and not just us." - I run hot and cold. Right now I'm hot, but I will probably burn out someday and the pendulum will be in full swing to the other direction.

11) "It seems like there is always an obstacle right before coming, which is really great, because it tells me that I'm on the right path. Being able to overcome the obstacle is exciting, to finally get here. YEAH!! We did it. When I came, there were so many delays with my plane schedules and everything. But when I got here, it seemed like the questions that I needed answers to were all over. Every experience I listened to and every study that we did all helped me to understand the answer that I needed. It was wonderful." - Yes, it's me again and I'm still REALLY off the deep end.

************

Any of the above sound painfully familiar? It does to me. Same ol' time worn cliches, nothing even innovative in their slogans and themes. Notice that there is no substance in their replies, only vague, subjective, generic, warped, meaningless cult-speak.

Truly pathetic. How can people fall for this mental excrement?

"Truly pathetic. How can people fall for this mental excrement?" -- Hitch

The LS states, "There is no safety in the Threefold World." People seeking safety where there is none. Desperate for safety, they make poor decisions. That's my take.

Nichijew

That's an interesting and I'd also say valid take on it, especially considering the abundant material wealth that's floating around the FNCC cult retreat (facilities, recreation, food, etc.). It certainly doesn't have much to do with traditional buddhism. More like a modern manipulative Ikeda bastardized version of buddhism.

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Nichijew
Desperate for safety, they make poor decisions.

Desperate for safety, certainty, meaning and knowledge, I agree, people do make poor decisions.