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Findingmywaytoday

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Hitch
Findingmywaytoday, you stated that you were happier before you joined. Therein lies your answer. Time to get out. I can tell you that absolutely, positively, you have been brainwashed. All the fear and talk of sansho shima is manifestations of that. People (potentially) chanting for you? Well, in my view, that's entirely their problem, not yours. Don't worry about it. The only way you'll ever get out is to be strong. It's not a bad thing to think about yourself and FOR yourself. The cult manipulation's goal is exactly the opposite.

I reread your answer, and I think you are right. I am stressing out. I do like chanting, but that is a personal choice. I just don't want it to be attached to the veneration of President Ikeda, you know? I am thinking about investigating the temples, and also specifically seeking out counseling to help me be strong. Some people say it isn't a cult, but what matters is what I think is right for me.

It is a cult under the auspices of a religion. The Rick Ross book link at the top of the page [www.culteducation.com] has a nice reading list to choose from, but none are gakkai specific. For that, there's this thread. As for getting out, what works for one person may not work for another, because we all joined for different reasons, practiced for different reasons and begin to doubt for different reasons. Only you can find what is right for you. You are perfectly within your rights to do it freely and without fear. Anybody who tells you otherwise, is manipulating you.

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SGBye
Quite a few years back I was doing Gajokai duty at my local kaikan, answering the phones. One night the phone rang and it was George Williams. A “pioneer member” in our area had passed away and Mr. Williams was calling to get info about attending the funeral. So, I put him on hold and rang the office upstairs to tell them that Mr. Williams was on the line. None of the leaders wanted to talk to him and they told me to tell him that no one was in the office. At that time, I didn’t know about Mr. William’s situation with the SGI - I had just thought that he gave up his leadership voluntarily so that someone else could step up. I have no idea if all the rumors about him are true, but it angers me that he was treated so disrespectfully by everyone simply on Ikeda’s orders.

Mr. Williams (Sadanaga) is a bit of a shell from what he used to be. The last time I saw him, I was so saddened by it. It kind of shook me up and I had to think about it all for a while to process it. I always had so much great respect for him, but now my views are tempered by reality (there were a few comments that really took me by surprise and were quite revealing). He was driving a rather old, beat up and dirty car. There were no soka-han or gajokai or toban trailing him, clearing paths for him, opening doors, greeting or even bowing. He walked alone, seemed lonely, smaller and people were pretty much indifferent to his presence. Not a single person deferred to him, except perhaps myself. Even the WD were somewhat ignoring him and just being minimally polite as he stopped one to say something or make a comment as they passed by. It all spoke volumes to me. He was nostalgic for the past and a bit bitter about how things were going (declining memberships, etc.). He was working hard to reclaim old members that had gone over to the temple side. I could still see occasional flashes of the old lion inside of him (which made me smile), but I could tell it was an older lion, tired and one that had suffered some serious past injuries in its journeys. I don't know, I guess we all reap what we sow, eventually. Choosing Ikeda as your mentor, I didn't have to look very far to see what had become of one of his most loyal disciples (i.e., slave) as a result. A harsh and hard lesson. I'm amazed that somebody could fall so far, yet still get up again and keep walking, regardless. I've got to hand it to him and give the man at least that much credit. A more loyal Ikeda disciple, there may never be.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2012 11:37AM by Hitch.

I'm just now finding this incredible "experience." It reveals so much that is typical of the sg.

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scaredtoleave
I went to a meeting and knew immediately it was not for me. I thanked them profusely for inviting me and sharing their beliefs with me, and kindly explained I was going to stick with my own practice. I thought this would be the end of it.

Instead, people just started showing up at my home! I'd open my bedroom door, and they'd be in the living room (I had roommates who let them in.) Initially, I found this to be abhorrent behavior.

As years went by, they continued to pressure me to join. I found this to be odd behavior, but thought two things: 1.) they do seem like such nice people 2.) they are the only people in my life right now.

Time went by and I felt continually pressured. There would be times I'd be facing a challenge, and they'd tell me to chant about it. I began lying and pretending to chant. As someone who HIGHLY values honesty, this was a very big deal to me. Then, when a positive outcome would arise, they'd say see, this is how your life changes when you chant! I never had the heart to tell them I wasn't actually chanting.

A wonderful demonstration of confirmation bias in action. This also sums up every single experience I ever heard during my time in the cult.

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scaredtoleave
This one lady in particular was pressuring me very very hard to receive the gohozon. Five years had gone by, and I was in a better financial place. It seemed worthwhile just to spend the $30 to make the phone calls stop.

Afterwards, I didn't hear much from them anymore. I kept in touch with one of the ladies who was just the sweetest person on earth. She promised me she would stay friends with me if I left the practice, but I didn't really believe her. A few years went by and things were pretty quiet, until suddenly some rock the era event was being produced. I began receiving phone calls and pressure to come to meetings. I was very lonely at the time, and those were the only phone calls I was receiving. The ladies would tell me there was no need to be lonely, as I had lots of friends! But when I went to the meetings, I felt more alone than ever before. I would read The Lotus Sutra and ask questions about it, and they'd tell me there was no need to be reading it. That I should just read The World Tribune, Living Buddhism, and Sensei's daily guidance.

One of the District Leaders took me for coffee one day. It was nice. I don't really have many friends, and I was so happy to have someone to spend time with. To my dismay, she would speak of nothing other than chanting. Nothing else! And when I tried to add to the conversation by sharing my experiences with Shin, I was quickly quieted. At the end, I thanked her so much for the coffee, and she happily explained that since she was a district leader, our time together was considered a meeting so she would write my coffee off her taxes. I can look back on it and laugh. But at the time it really hurt my feelings. Made me feel so small, and worthless. I wasn't a friend. I was just a tax write-off.

Re: the tax write-off. That sums up the cold heart of many of the members that I remember. People are just numbers and statistics 1st, a means to an end, and members and human beings only as an afterthought.

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scaredtoleave
They used to be pretty nice to me, but since not contributing to May contribution, and now not "confirming my attendance" for the RTE, I am no longer receiving happy phone calls, but angry ones.

I am adult, and shouldn't be scared of these people, but somehow I am.

I am also scared because somehow over the years, I never meant for it to happen, but there is no one else in my life but SGI folks. It feels like I either stick with them, or I have nobody.

It's just confusing. At the Shin center they have lunch after the meditation ceremony, but no one gets angry with you if you don't have lunch with them. I don't understand why people are so angry with me because I don't wish to attend RTE. I also don't understand how RTE is contributing to world peace.

The last phone call I received was an angry one from someone who wants me to confirm my attendance to RTE. She said the performers have been rehearsing for months, and I would be disrespecting all their months of hard work by refusing to show up, and that I am harming the entire world by not participating in an event which will transform America.

I don't know what to do anymore. I can't even believe I ended up involved in this mess.

That was always my experience, too. Whenever you strongly resisted doing anything that they really wanted or needed you to do, they would get angry and downright nasty. Then the manipulation would go into full gear. I personally was never afraid of these people, but some of them sometimes royally pissed me off, though.

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scaredtoleave
I was experiencing some health challenges, and was potentially requiring a surgery, when I lost my job and consequently, my medical insurance. I was told I did not need medical insurance or attention, as I had a Gohozon, and the only reason why I was sick was because I was not chanting enough.

I had promised one of the members that I would attend this home meeting, and although my heart was not in it, I try to always adhere to my promises, so I went, thinking it will may very well be the last meeting I ever attend. When the speaker begins to share her experience, my heart misses a beat and my jaw drops. She is sharing her experience, and it is strikingly similar to what I was currently going through, right down to the very same medical condition!!!!!!!!!!!! I absolutely was struck by the coincidence. She spoke of falling to the floor, lying unconscious, and her family gathering around her chanting her back to life. My intellect thought "how could that possibly be?!" But her account of her condition was so detailed, so real.

In that moment, it all seemed too amazing to be mere coincidence and afterwards I spoke with member attendees who explained to me it was simply the Mystic Law working, that I was meant to be at that meeting, and hear the experience so that it would renew my determination to be victorious and chant to be restored to good health.

It seemed so amazing & meaningful. I took it was a sign that I should stay with the practice and really give it more of a chance. Afterall, what an amazing coincidence/incident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This amazing coincidence over-rided the "leave" feeling my gut had previously been speaking to me.

While reading your wonderful responses, I came across one which said (tsukimoto) that "If the guest has a health, money, or family problem, some member who has had that particular problem will share an experience of how they resolved it through chanting/President Ikeda's guidance/doing activities for SGI."

My heart sunk when I read that. That possibility never crossed my mind.

I'd like to believe it was some mystical sign from the Universe, but after reading that, I am rethinking everything.

I don't see how or why it could be, seems far-fetched. This speaker came a long way to share her experience at our meeting. Also, what if I didn't show up at the meeting? I only shared the specifics of my medical issue with one member, who is in a different district. So it seems crazy to contemplate that information was relayed. I just don't know anymore. I just don't know.

Anything you share with any member will be spread around and used to manipulate you, if need be. IMO, you were definitely played and I can attest that I've seen it done many, many times.

As heart wrenching as some of this is, I must say that it is all exactly how the cult of the gakkai operates. I advise anyone reading this mb, this thread, to do your research before you get mixed up with this toxic organization. Save yourself and get away, as far away as possible from this extremely manipulative ultra-authoritarian cult of the personality that is only after your $$$$$, your time and your mind (in that order).

Hi Findingmywaytoday

I found ICSA (International Cultic Studies Assoication) to be helpful they have speakers, referrals and conferences listed on their website.

evergreen

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evergreen
Hi Findingmywaytoday

I found ICSA (International Cultic Studies Assoication) to be helpful they have speakers, referrals and conferences listed on their website.

evergreen

Thank you sooo much! This is really helpful!!

....that's why its helpful to research and study (from a skeptical cultic viewpoint) all sorts of different cults and sects. At first, it seems overwhelming. but after looking at dozens of them, even hundreds of them, you start to see they operate in very similar ways.
There is nothing at all original about how the SGI sect operates.
Every TECHNIQUE used by Ikeda has been written about by experts in the cult areas.

but with SGI, it might be a little harder at first, as they are not telling people Space Aliens inside volcanoes are controlling the UN or some crazy beliefs along those lines.
SGI hides behind some Buddhist sounding words...but its just a figleaf.
The real SGI has nothing to do with "Buddhism" that is simply the figleaf Ikeda uses to dupe the multitude, to use as a front for Ikeda moneymaking. And Ikeda has made billions of dollars.

Some goverment agency will probably do a serious investigation into SGI and global moneylaundering at some point.

And very helpful to hear that in fact SGI-Ikeda used to call it MASTER and disciple/slave, and then switched in the USA to Mentor. That is just to make it sound like pop-psychology, as SGI-USA has hired US PR agencies to manage their image.

But its really hard for those in SGI to understand that all of the SGi-speak about Buddhism, is not what SGI is really about. That is like the magician pointing to his right hand, while the left hand does the trick.
To begin to understand SGI, one has to seperate out any type of "Buddhist" ideas, from the cultic persuasion techniques which are occuring.
For those with some training in this area, the cultic persuasion techniques used by SGI-USA and Ikeda are very obvious, and have been detailed in this thread.

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Hitch
Anticult, the more I read your posts on this thread, the more I realize that you got this cult wrapped up pretty good in your summations.

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The Anticult
As far as "mentor" that is SGI Newspeak.
SGI-USA propagandists chose the "mentor" word, as its trendy in business in the West now, and sounds inoffensive.
But its not Mentor/Colleague.
Its Mentor/Disciple.

Again, Disciple is chose carefully, as that is from the bible for most folks. A disciple is a religious FOLLOWER who follows orders.

but its not really "mentor".
Its MASTER.
MASTER/Disciple.

That is what SGI is really selling. You do worship a "Master".
The real concept SGI is selling is...

Master/Slave.
Ikeda is the Master, and you follow orders and work for free.
Of course that is the classical cultic power-relationship, the Master totally dominates and controls you, your mind, and your life.

So SGI constantly doing that, is simply cultic Master/slave cultic brainwashing, that is all it is.

It was always MASTER during my time in the practice. It was only changed later to the more pc and neutral term "mentor" to distance it from the more pejorative connotations and baggage of the term "master" (i.e., the term wasn't flying too well to the Western mindset). The longer sg is around, the more they like to rewrite history.

MASTER & SLAVE sums it up perfectly. A mental master and a physical slave is the sg cult in a nutshell. Sometimes I just want to tell people, "Stand up, get up off your knees and take control of your own life."

There really are a great number of fantastic posts from times past before I joined this mb. So many I'd like to add my thoughts to, but I've chosen only a few:

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sushigrl
Tsuki, this rush to exchange Nikken Gohonzon for Nichikan Gohonzon (or whoever) was one of the first threads that started to unravel the cloak of my "faith". Other than styles and border colors, what difference could it possibly have made to have one or the other Gohonzon?? I don't even think the leaders knew what they were doing. All we knew is that Ikeda wanted us to throw out any possible remnants of Nichiren Snowshoe attachments and only be with our SGI symbols and guidances and stuff. It was crazy...the temple where I was married was suddenly a taboo and evil place.

It's all taboo and evil to me now, all the bickering and bullshit and custody issues and claims of fake DaiGs and priestly and lay person nonsense. Thanks really to this forum for a place to sit quietly come to realizations with a bunch of great ex members.

I had always had my doubts about "chanting", the superstitious rituals and the mere "scroll." When they started the movement to exchange the gohonzons, there were quite a few of the more "thinking" members who voiced concerns, objections and had the seeds of doubt planted in their minds. It was one of many self-inflicted mortal wounds that the gakkai did to both themselves and the membership. Seeing how the Nikken gohonzons were initially fawned over for their beauty and power, only to later quickly be recast as the polar opposite, was blatant evidence and inadvertent admission that it was all superstitious manipulation at the core.

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The Anticult
Some goverment agency will probably do a serious investigation into SGI and global moneylaundering at some point.

And very helpful to hear that in fact SGI-Ikeda used to call it MASTER and disciple/slave, and then switched in the USA to Mentor. That is just to make it sound like pop-psychology, as SGI-USA has hired US PR agencies to manage their image.

I feel the same about there being an official investigation into sgi-usa at some point. It's only a matter of time before it happens and it is long overdue.

I submit audio recording exhibit "A" as evidence of the "MASTER" usage from earlier days. This [www.youtube.com] is the general director of nsa/sgi-usa using the term (first use at the ~ 3:35 min. mark). I heard it all the time, from every top leader during my days in the cult. I know and I clearly remember, because the term never really sat well with me, either.

Just wanted to also mention, Anticult, all of your comments throughout this thread regarding critical thinking are 100% in resonance with my own thoughts and personal experience in getting out of this cult. I got out entirely on my own based solely on the power of critical thinking and skepticism long before I ever even found this mb. It's immensely refreshing and satisfying to read your independent remarks about the same.

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rattyboy
In last months kosen rufu video, Mr, Ikeda said something about his mentor Josei Toda knowing 'how amazing he(Ikeda) was'. No one in the viewing audience flinched when Ikeda said this, (or clapped or visibly reacted at all). This stuff just washes over people. I wished I had made an audible laugh or critical comment . That is how conditioned we are to not upset the apple cart. You can't confront an entire group with disapproval. i observed and let it go.

Nothing has changed rattyboy. Here's a recent one [www.youtube.com]. It all really starts to kick off at ~ 2:40 min. mark. (Incidentally, "mentor"-disciple remarks are also found around the ~ 3:30 min. mark and is followed by the classic stern constipation looks on the md/ymd members' faces.)

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rattyboy
I found an old World Tribune with a photograph where young men were dressed in tight matching outfits coming out of a smoking rocket at some big convention. It looked ridiculous. It must have been a mind control test. "If we can get them to do these ridiculous shenanagins we still have them in our power". Were these displays tests of SGI/NSA's control over group mind? "Okay, they did the rocket thing with great enthusiasm, everything is copacetic".
I hate to say it, but at times I feel all my cynicism and disapproval of SGI could turn around after some venting. Maybe they would let me find a comfortable place back in the big ORG along with the now accepted homosexuals, (because they need the numbers and appearance of good will toward all men and women).
There was such an addictive quality to it, like snorting enough coke before going to the discoteque to be socially acceptable, but it wasn't just the disco, you had to be daimoku-ready for that call from a member at any time!
The scary thing is, I could imagine deciding to chant for an hour and then cursing at the devil of the sixth heaven and and pleading to the puffy face of Ikeda to take me as his disciple. Now that I write this...nah. This is definite cult mind control!

You've really got me laughing here, because I think I've seen that same picture (the stupid rocket).

I agree. The chanting has a mind numbing effect and definitely contributes to a more "receptive" state for thought reform. I know that some people get something from it, but it never truly clicked with me. Even when I tried to convince myself that something was happening, it wouldn't last long, because my inherent skepticism was always outside knocking on the door to be let back in. I also found the demands of morning (especially) and evening gonyo to be ridiculous, much too long and entirely unrealistic (unless, of course, you happen to be living in a monastery devoting your life to it). To each their own, but I found the rituals to be oppressive and as I got older, irrational magical superstitious thinking.

Rattyboy, thanks for your recommendation (in an earlier post of yours that I quoted) of "A Ticket To Heaven (1981)." I found the full movie [www.youtube.com] for others who may be interested. Quite an eye opener. I saw many parallels to nsa/sgi-x, MANY. Substitute in nmrk for their chant, youth division activities for their bizarre group behaviors, the shouting of the really stupid slogans, the manipulation by fellow members and even the wild eyed looks on some of the deluded mental case "leaders" . . . . and you've basically got a movie about the nsa/sg cult. I love the fact that the heart of the movie takes place in California, the original breeding ground of particularly credulous culture. An utterly fascinating watch and as per rattyboy, recommended, even essential viewing. The movie gets a bit corny at times, but not any more corny than some of the real life stuff I remember from my days in the practice. For those that watch it, stay with the movie, because the message behind it is accurate, deep and important.

And, finally, one last point directed to tsukimoto:

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tsukimoto
--Critical thinking is discouraged. Members who do so are seen as arrogant and lacking in faith.

I came across another of your posts (I believe?) about a leader who visited a member and criticized all of the "non-buddhist, non-sgi" books that the member had. Saying something to the effect that "reading doesn't help or change you, chanting does!" and "don't read so much, your time would be better spent chanting!" What a disturbing mindset. It's basically saying, "turn off your critical faculties, let us manipulate you and push you further down into superstitious darkness."

No thanks. As a kid, I tried the kool aid (that's what kids do), but as an adult, I absolutely don't like what it does to you.

Thanks Hitch I was looking for that movie on netflix but it was unavailable

Tonight I made a big step. I actually talked to someone from the temple, and it was so freeing to actually talks to someone who chants Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, but doesn't worship Ikeda. I had a great conversation with this woman. I have to tell you that I was really scared to call, but it was incredibly empowering to at least branch out.

Although I don't know much about the temple, I highly doubt they are the big bad monster I have been told that they are. Now will I join them, I don't know. I don't know enough about them. I want to ask here on this board what kind of experience people have had with them. If it is taboo to talk about here, then I am sorry.

I also got into contact with someone who does exit counseling in my area. Although we just exchanged messages, she said she was very familiar with both the SGI and also the Nichiren Shoshu organization. This made me wonder if they are also culty. When I spoke with the woman on the phone, she said that they want to follow Nichiren. I also believe that there are two sides to every story, and I would at least like to hear their side soon from them.

What has made me sick recently is all the terminology that SGI members use. I sometimes will hear myself use words like benefit, and stuff like that, and then I feel annoyed.

There was something else I was going to say, but when I get on this topic, I get so full of various emotions, I lose my train of thought.

Can someone tell me if the current Nichiren Temple is also culty? Thanks a bunch!

Oh, it dawned on me what I wanted to say. I have a questioning mind, and I pride myself not accepting things on face value. I started writing and interacting with this board when I felt there was a push for mentor/ disciple, and the oneness of mentor/ disciple. That never sat right with me. I also felt deceived by the person who shakabuked me. I felt I came into the organization under false terms. Now, I want you to know that I do take responsibility for it. I could have asked, but I feel I have grown since then as a person.

Anyhow, I did start questioning the mentor/disciple push. Everytime I have asked a member that, they respond with the same response. They tell me that they will have to talk to me in person about it. Usually I am asking this question when that is the last thing I want to do. The members can't talk to me on the phone or in person. Oh, well..I get it. I have been in the SGI long enough to know how they operate.

I consider myself a relatively intelligent person. Yet, when I mentioned that I didn't understand the mentor disciple relationship, or that I didn't agree with it. The person said that sometimes it takes people a long time as an SGI member to understand this.

Anyhow, that is all I have to say for now!